Author Topic: Effin' doctors!  (Read 3210 times)

Hawkmoon

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Effin' doctors!
« on: July 31, 2017, 05:42:37 PM »
http://www.cnn.com/2017/07/28/health/charlie-gard-death/index.html

Charlie Gard has passed away.

I don't get it. When parents who are, for example, Christian Scientists, want to NOT have their kids subjected to experimental therapies or "heroic measures," the doctors take them to court and get the courts to order treatment, even in cases where the treatments have a very low probability of changing anything. Then along comes Charlie Gard, whose parents WANTED to treat him, who found a specialist who wanted to treat him, and who had raised enough money to treat him ... and the hospital that was holding him hostage took the parents to court in order to gain the right and authority to NOT treat him. And some numb-nuts British court bought into the hospital's side of the story.

Disgraceful.
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RoadKingLarry

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Re: Effin' doctors!
« Reply #1 on: July 31, 2017, 06:23:39 PM »
Brit NHS had determined that there was no possible way to help the baby. If the evil capitalist American doctor had successfully treat the child and given him any kind of life it would have shown the true nature of the Brit NHS. Can't have that.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.

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HeroHog

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Re: Effin' doctors!
« Reply #2 on: July 31, 2017, 07:31:57 PM »
As I stated on my Facebook post of this: "This is how you sow the seeds of revolution!"
I might not last very long or be very effective but I'll be a real pain in the ass for a minute!
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MechAg94

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Re: Effin' doctors!
« Reply #3 on: July 31, 2017, 08:55:07 PM »
Which is why the term "death panels" was always accurate.  Can't have someone getting help outside the "system".
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gunsmith

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Re: Effin' doctors!
« Reply #4 on: July 31, 2017, 09:47:41 PM »
a facebook acquaintance, brother of a good friend , is a socialist - this story drives him nuts.
probably realizes that some folks have to die for the greater good and knows the optics are really bad.
rugged individualism wont recognize death for the common good 
Politicians and bureaucrats are considered productive if they swarm the populace like a plague of locust, devouring all substance in their path and leaving a swath of destruction like a firestorm. The technical term is "bipartisanship".
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De Selby

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Re: Effin' doctors!
« Reply #5 on: July 31, 2017, 09:51:09 PM »
Brit NHS had determined that there was no possible way to help the baby. If the evil capitalist American doctor had successfully treat the child and given him any kind of life it would have shown the true nature of the Brit NHS. Can't have that.

Hahahahah hahahahahahahahaha hahahahah

The fantasy of hero capitalism in American medicine here is great comedy. I mean it's as funny as watching North Koreans sincerely tell us that Kim seeded the earth with trees and made the mountains.

Folks love a story to define their policies. I suppose that's why health policy in America achieves nothing besides being he most expensive health care on earth
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

zxcvbob

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Re: Effin' doctors!
« Reply #6 on: July 31, 2017, 09:59:27 PM »
There's still the matter of who owns children, their parents or the state.  That's ultimately what this case came down to, because the parents had raised enough money to attempt treatment and the state forbid it.
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Hawkmoon

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Re: Effin' doctors!
« Reply #7 on: July 31, 2017, 10:07:55 PM »
a facebook acquaintance, brother of a good friend , is a socialist - this story drives him nuts.
probably realizes that some folks have to die for the greater good and knows the optics are really bad.
rugged individualism wont recognize death for the common good 

How did refusing to allow the parents to remove Charlie from the system and take him somewhere else -- at NO expense to the government -- in any way serve the common good?

For that matter, if the child of a Christian Scientist is dying of cancer (say a brain tumor the size of a baseball) and the parents want to pray rather than operate -- how is the common good in any way helped by forcing the parents to surrender custody so a surgeon can cut the kid's head open before he/she dies anyway?
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RoadKingLarry

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Re: Effin' doctors!
« Reply #8 on: July 31, 2017, 10:44:01 PM »
Hahahahah hahahahahahahahaha hahahahah

The fantasy of hero capitalism in American medicine here is great comedy. I mean it's as funny as watching North Koreans sincerely tell us that Kim seeded the earth with trees and made the mountains.

Folks love a story to define their policies. I suppose that's why health policy in America achieves nothing besides being he most expensive health care on earth

So, you are all in favor of the British NHS deciding who lives and dies under their system even when it is not a matter of expending taxpayer funds?
In this case it was an American doctor but it could have been any other nationality and I believe the verdict from the NHS death panel would have been the same.
As Hawkmoon asks-
Quote
How did refusing to allow the parents to remove Charlie from the system and take him somewhere else -- at NO expense to the government -- in any way serve the common good?
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.

Samuel Adams

TommyGunn

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Re: Effin' doctors!
« Reply #9 on: July 31, 2017, 11:49:32 PM »
Hahahahah hahahahahahahahaha hahahahah

The fantasy of hero capitalism in American medicine here is great comedy. I mean it's as funny as watching North Koreans sincerely tell us that Kim seeded the earth with trees and made the mountains.

Folks love a story to define their policies. I suppose that's why health policy in America achieves nothing besides being he most expensive health care on earth

The reason it's so  expensive is the idiot govt started to regulate it years ago----not JUST  the fedgov,  but all the states as well.
Obamacare is only the best, latest example of a govt program/regulation driving up prices.
MOLON LABE   "Through ignorance of what is good and what is bad, the life of men is greatly perplexed." ~~ Cicero

Scout26

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Re: Effin' doctors!
« Reply #10 on: August 01, 2017, 12:15:41 AM »
Do note that the breakthrough treatment was available in the still semi-capitalistic US medical system, but not in the sooooooo much fairer/better Socialistic NHS of Britain.   Also that the doctor and many in the US were willing to pay for Charlie's travel and treatment.   But hey, can't have parents making decisions about their own children. 






The ball is now in your court De Selby.
Some days even my lucky rocketship underpants won't help.


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gunsmith

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Re: Effin' doctors!
« Reply #11 on: August 01, 2017, 01:03:49 AM »
"the common good" of the socialist workers means undesirables and financial burdens are eliminated.
if Charlie Gard had been healed, the uk socialist system may have had to pay, eventually plus when he returned?
probably life long care plus they were proved wrong
Politicians and bureaucrats are considered productive if they swarm the populace like a plague of locust, devouring all substance in their path and leaving a swath of destruction like a firestorm. The technical term is "bipartisanship".
Rocket Man: "The need for booster shots for the immunized has always been based on the science.  Political science, not medical science."

RoadKingLarry

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Re: Effin' doctors!
« Reply #12 on: August 01, 2017, 02:13:32 AM »
My money is on "proved wrong" as being the overriding reason they refused to allow  it.

So, come on De Selby, further justify the NHS requiring the baby to be sacrificed on the alter of socialism.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.

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De Selby

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Re: Effin' doctors!
« Reply #13 on: August 01, 2017, 05:07:36 AM »
The case was always about the child suffering and being at risk of a horrible end if moved.  I don't think it's as simple as "not worth the money", and no, we don't generally let people for example let their kids die a horrible lingering death for no reason even in the us.

For example:  https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4856058/

And laid out graphically:  https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr63/nvsr63_05.pdf

"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

De Selby

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Re: Effin' doctors!
« Reply #14 on: August 01, 2017, 05:09:21 AM »
Do note that the breakthrough treatment was available in the still semi-capitalistic US medical system, but not in the sooooooo much fairer/better Socialistic NHS of Britain.   Also that the doctor and many in the US were willing to pay for Charlie's travel and treatment.   But hey, can't have parents making decisions about their own children. 






The ball is now in your court De Selby.

There are always people who will jump at a media sensation.  But compared to this one kid more kids die in America every year as a result of maternal health problems (untreated) and lack of access to care by a large measure than there are repeats of Charlie in Britain.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

RoadKingLarry

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Re: Effin' doctors!
« Reply #15 on: August 01, 2017, 06:54:01 AM »
The case was always about the child suffering and being at risk of a horrible end if moved.  I don't think it's as simple as "not worth the money", and no, we don't generally let people for example let their kids die a horrible lingering death for no reason even in the us.

For example:  https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4856058/

And laid out graphically:  https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr63/nvsr63_05.pdf



A mod had to edit my post because I don't understand what "Polite" in Armed Polite Society means.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2017, 09:03:28 AM by mtnbkr »
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.

Samuel Adams

De Selby

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Re: Effin' doctors!
« Reply #16 on: August 01, 2017, 07:16:51 AM »
A mod had to edit my post because I don't understand what "Polite" in Armed Polite Society means.

Because the data is wrong??? Or because 'Murica?
« Last Edit: August 01, 2017, 09:03:40 AM by mtnbkr »
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

RoadKingLarry

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If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.

Samuel Adams

Firethorn

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Re: Effin' doctors!
« Reply #18 on: August 01, 2017, 08:12:18 AM »
I don't get it. When parents who are, for example, Christian Scientists, want to NOT have their kids subjected to experimental therapies or "heroic measures,"

You know, I think we're seeing substantially different news stories on the topic.

Usually, when I see Christian Scientists being taken to court to force treatment for their kids, the "heroic measures" or "experimental therapy" is often things like giving their diabetic child insulin.  Cases where treatment has somewhere around a 99% success rate, and is routine as it can get.


Pb

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Re: Effin' doctors!
« Reply #19 on: August 01, 2017, 10:57:39 AM »
I don't know anything about medical treatment, but refusing to let parents try to treat their kids- even with no realistic hope of success- is evil.

RevDisk

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Re: Effin' doctors!
« Reply #20 on: August 01, 2017, 12:06:54 PM »
There's still the matter of who owns children, their parents or the state.  That's ultimately what this case came down to, because the parents had raised enough money to attempt treatment and the state forbid it.

Or perhaps children shouldn't be considered 'owned'. Humans aren't property.

Parents should be trusted with decision making, but not to the point where they believe their children are property which they can abuse, maim or kill. If someone wants to engage in extremely risky or lethal behavior after they turn 18, that's their business and they can consent. OTOH, attempting to kill your children, who can't consent to that sort of thing, is where the state SHOULD step in.

Of course, when it's wrapped in religion, it becomes even more of a tar pit. Obviously the government should be kept far away from religion, and vice versa. But people can and do claim anything is a religion. Drawing lines is tricky.

 
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TommyGunn

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Re: Effin' doctors!
« Reply #21 on: August 01, 2017, 12:20:49 PM »
There are always people who will jump at a media sensation.  But compared to this one kid more kids die in America every year as a result of maternal health problems (untreated) and lack of access to care by a large measure than there are repeats of Charlie in Britain.

How many cases of kids dying in Great Britain due to "maternal health problems (untreated) and lack of access to care" are there?  I think that would be a more apt comparison than comparing Charlie Gard to American cases of untreated maternal health problems.   I think you're conflating issues here.
OK, it may be difficult to extrapolate healthcare deficiencies from one example, but the point of principle remains, why shouldn't the parents of a child have every opportunity they can grab at to help their baby?  Forget the "media sensation" aspect of this, the Gard family were still human beings, and their human rights ought to have been respected.
Charlie Gard's case may have indeed been hopeless, though atleast one American doctor did believe he could treat the child.  Unless you're a doctor, very familiar with the malady Charlie had, it's sorta hard to second guess the doctor's opinion.  Sure, British doctors may have had a different opinion but were they familiar enough with the American doctor's proposed treatment to have an acurate assessment of the proposed treatment?
If you're a fair person you will admit you cannot really answer most tof these questions.  I don't propose them because I have answers, I merely believe it was within the parents' rights to determine how far they should have gone in helping their baby, not the British courts' rights or the British Healthcare system. 
MOLON LABE   "Through ignorance of what is good and what is bad, the life of men is greatly perplexed." ~~ Cicero

gunsmith

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Re: Effin' doctors!
« Reply #22 on: August 01, 2017, 02:08:24 PM »
The case was always about the child suffering and being at risk of a horrible end if moved....Right!, letting the child die, not allowing the parents to decide treatment, firstly telling them treatment wasn't available then legally denying them the right to seek available treatment, having the child die horribly, that is not as important as actually ending the suffering through treatment - the socialist way is ending suffering thru death  I don't think it's as simple as "not worth the money", ...., more like you don't like the optics, the child was a financial burden, even with the money raised, just admit it and no, we don't generally..... not generally? only once in a while?....bring out your dead! let people for example let their kids die a horrible lingering death for no reason even in the us.

For example:  https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4856058/

And laid out graphically:  https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr63/nvsr63_05.pdf


Politicians and bureaucrats are considered productive if they swarm the populace like a plague of locust, devouring all substance in their path and leaving a swath of destruction like a firestorm. The technical term is "bipartisanship".
Rocket Man: "The need for booster shots for the immunized has always been based on the science.  Political science, not medical science."

Scout26

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Re: Effin' doctors!
« Reply #23 on: August 01, 2017, 02:23:33 PM »
1)  Most of us here carry for the protection or not only ourselves but for those we love as well, especially our children.  We have made the conscious decision to take a life (or lives) to protect our children, should they be in danger of losing their lives or serious bodily harm.

To put it bluntly, I(we) will kill to protect my children.  So if we are ready to go to that extreme, I KNOW that everyone of us would grasp at any medical straw to keep our kids alive.

2)  This is an example of measures we, as Americans, will go to try to save a life.   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vzcoHGCp_I#t=30m33s
Some days even my lucky rocketship underpants won't help.


Bring me my Broadsword and a clear understanding.
Get up to the roundhouse on the cliff-top standing.
Take women and children and bed them down.
Bless with a hard heart those that stand with me.
Bless the women and children who firm our hands.
Put our backs to the north wind.
Hold fast by the river.
Sweet memories to drive us on,
for the motherland.

De Selby

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Re: Effin' doctors!
« Reply #24 on: August 01, 2017, 07:45:52 PM »
The missing piece here is that the hospital (by most medical accounts including the parents expert) didn't want the baby to suffer agonising pain during a move for a most likely fruitless treatment. That is a reasonable position unless you think parents have an absolute right to make decisions to the point of agonising pain for their children.

Again, this was not a case about refusing treatment because it was fruitless. It was a case about refusing to move the child and thereby causing risk of great suffering to the point of death.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."