Border wall and private property

[RevDisk]

https://www.texasobserver.org/national-butterfly-center-staff-surprised-by-workers-with-chainsaws-prepping-trumps-border-wall/
http://www.khou.com/news/local/texas/butterfly-conservation-finds-government-contractors-clearing-path-for-possible-border-wall-1/460935551

Doesn't specifically say if the lack of notice was a screwup or intentional by USG. While the US government does have strong Constitutional authority over the borders, that can and will brush up against the Fourth Amendment. Seems like no one is exactly sure how this will be handled for the rest of the border.

[zxcvbob]

https://www.texasobserver.org/national-butterfly-center-staff-surprised-by-workers-with-chainsaws-prepping-trumps-border-wall/
http://www.khou.com/news/local/texas/butterfly-conservation-finds-government-contractors-clearing-path-for-possible-border-wall-1/460935551

Doesn't specifically say if the lack of notice was a screwup or intentional by USG. While the US government does have strong Constitutional authority over the borders, that can and will brush up against the Fourth Amendment. Seems like no one is exactly sure how this will be handled for the rest of the border.

Fifth Amendment, ain't it?

[MechAg94]

I was wondering how much private land would be cut off on the other side of the wall. 

After wading through the butterfly BS, yes they probably should have had some notice.  It also would not surprise me if there were some pre-existing laws that give the US Govt access to areas along the border. 

[Hawkmoon]

Fifth Amendment, ain't it?

Fourth. Unreasonable search and seizure. And I'd say building an 18-foot high wall that cuts a property owner off from 90 percent of his property is pretty much a seizure, and not especially reasonable.

So this is a mile from the Rio Grande? I guess I'm more naive than I ever imagined. Silly me for thinking a border wall should be, like, at the border.

[MechAg94]

That was one of the arguments I heard against it last year.  Since the Rio Grande River is pretty much the border at least for much of Texas, there are probably areas where you can't build it right on the river.  Access for livestock or recreation could be issues.  I am not sure of the reasons for all of it, but there will be some heartburn over it for those at the border.  

I guess they could just say "screw you" to Mexico and build it on their side.

[zxcvbob]

Fourth. Unreasonable search and seizure. And I'd say building an 18-foot high wall that cuts a property owner off from 90 percent of his property is pretty much a seizure, and not especially reasonable.

So this is a mile from the Rio Grande? I guess I'm more naive than I ever imagined. Silly me for thinking a border wall should be, like, at the border.

I think it violates the takings clause more than the search and seizure part.

[230RN]

Aaaand, how are they going to handle it on the reservation that crosses over the border into Mexico?

https://radar.weather.gov/radar.php?rid=ftg&product=N0R&overlay=11101111&loop=no

I always figured President Trump didn't necessarily mean a physical "brick-and mortar" wall, although that would be appropriate in some places, but rather, a diplomatic and politically-manipulated  "wall."

I think maybe a lot of us took "wall" too literally.

As in, you know, like "Berlin Wall."

But this kind of tickles my sense of humor and justice and goodness and nobility and fairness:

...

I guess they could just say "screw you" to Mexico and build it on their side.

Terry, 230RN

[Hawkmoon]

I think it violates the takings clause more than the search and seizure part.

Yep. I have to agree with you.

Amendment 5:

... nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

[MechAg94]

Regardless, a wall without defenders is useless so I would be curious if the Border Patrol would actually be able to use force to prevent people climbing over it.

[Firethorn]

Regardless, a wall without defenders is useless so I would be curious if the Border Patrol would actually be able to use force to prevent people climbing over it.

Unless we hired around an order of magnitude or two more BP officers their ability to use force to prevent crossings would remain more or less symbolic in actual prevention.

Unless you have a constant and significant force - think Berlin Wall, you'll be unable to prevent them from not only climbing over, but also tunneling under and through the wall.

Let's say it's an actual concrete wall.  How long do you think that a 1.5 foot or so hole could be concealed with appropriately colored heavy cloth if BP officers only ever drive past it at 40mph and higher?  Sort of a doggie door ghillie suit?

What about a 20 foot or so tunnel that goes UNDER the access road and lets out on the opposite side?

Keeping human in prison is a tough job.  Bypassing a wall where they can potentially bring tools?  Child's play.

[just Warren]

You're never going to catch them all.

You use the wall to deter those that are less determined. In the US proper you use threats of putting illegals into work camps and make them work off their penalties at .10 cents an hour. Sure, come on in, but if you're caught you'll be helping us build new highways or whatever and your relatives at home ain't gonna get anything from you.

Show up and vote and maybe get executed as a saboteur.

Employers and landlords get threatened with asset forfeiture and their own jail terms.

That should keep illegal crossings down.

For the property rights issues just overpay. Let them have a windfall. The total cost of that would be negligible compared to what illegals have cost and are costing us now.

[MechAg94]

Unless we hired around an order of magnitude or two more BP officers their ability to use force to prevent crossings would remain more or less symbolic in actual prevention.

Unless you have a constant and significant force - think Berlin Wall, you'll be unable to prevent them from not only climbing over, but also tunneling under and through the wall.

Let's say it's an actual concrete wall.  How long do you think that a 1.5 foot or so hole could be concealed with appropriately colored heavy cloth if BP officers only ever drive past it at 40mph and higher?  Sort of a doggie door ghillie suit?

What about a 20 foot or so tunnel that goes UNDER the access road and lets out on the opposite side?

Keeping human in prison is a tough job.  Bypassing a wall where they can potentially bring tools?  Child's play.

Deterrence is what I am talking about.  I wasn't implying we needed armed guard towers every 500 feet.  In the past I always got the impression we tie the hands of the BP quite a bit.  Sort of like the people who say we need the Army or National Guard on the border, but fail to notice when they are used there, they are usually unarmed and only in support roles.  If they know they will be opposed with force at the border as well as beyond it, it would only increase the deterrent effect. 

And I understood preventing tunnelling was part of the wall design but I never saw what or how that would be done.

[makattak]

On the "literal wall" I'm fairly certain that Trump's enemies took him more literally than his supporters.

Additionally, Trump knows about negotiations. You make a BIG ask and then you accept a "compromise" position that gets you what you want.

The left does this ALL THE TIME, but is so used to Republicans being incompetent, they will be screaming about how it's not actually a "wall" when whatever is finally built (fence, increased patrols/manpower, etc...) thinking that his supporters will be angry that he didn't fulfill his "promise".

From what I've seen of his supporters, they are far more "nuanced" about their expectations than the leftists. (Both what the leftists think OF the Trump supporters and what the leftist are, themselves.)

For example, I see leftists saying things like "TRUMP LIES ALL THE TIME!" and most Trump supporters say, "yeah, just like every other politician." The leftists are all aghast because Trump lies like a salesman, not a politician, but the "unwashed masses" see no difference. Politician liars THINK they are being more subtle, but they aren't, and the people have reacted accordingly.

[RevDisk]

Most folks profiting off the illegal immigration labor are more worried about either an electronic fence (cameras, drones, sensors) than an unguarded physical wall. Timely enforcement would likely do even more. Hence all the articles about individuals who are being deported and the emotional impact on said person's family.

[Scout26]

Word is that Border Crossings are way down (IIRC, the number was 70%), and there is a marked increase in "self-deportations", as some illegals are trying to get one step ahead of ICE.

And all that is being helped along by the left/media with all their "Children being ripped from the arms of their Mother's and the Mother is then deported !!!"  horror stories that they continue to run.

So Trump's biggest enemies are doing a great job of carrying the water on the "Border Wall/Deport 'em All" front.


 

[MechAg94]

I have even seen headlines about Canada moving troops to their border due to people trying to head there to avoid deportation.