Author Topic: NRA suing FL over banning 18-20 year olds from buying long guns  (Read 2336 times)

Pb

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Well, if the court gives a darn about the Second Ammendment, this would be an easy win.  Given how most of these go, I would predict the courts will shut them down, and the Supremes will, yet again, refuse to hear any appeal.

I sure hope I'm wrong.

The first federal gun law that I am aware of (Militia Act of 1792) required all able bodied 18-44 year old free men to own a gun, bayonet, and ammunition... making it obvious that the second ammendment was made to apply to young adults.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2018/03/09/nra-files-lawsuit-saying-florida-gun-bill-approved-by-gov-scott-violates-2nd-amendment.html

MechAg94

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Re: NRA suing FL over banning 18-20 year olds from buying long guns
« Reply #1 on: March 10, 2018, 01:39:15 PM »
I heard some discussion that said it may violate the Florida constitution, but I don't know any of the details for either one.
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

Hawkmoon

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Re: NRA suing FL over banning 18-20 year olds from buying long guns
« Reply #2 on: March 10, 2018, 08:24:35 PM »

The first federal gun law that I am aware of (Militia Act of 1792) required all able bodied 18-44 year old free men to own a gun, bayonet, and ammunition... making it obvious that the second ammendment was made to apply to young adults.


And, while the current Militia Act doesn't require militiapersons to provide their own firearms, the unorganized militia starts with able bodied males of 17 years of age.

http://codes.findlaw.com/us/title-10-armed-forces/10-usc-sect-311.html
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gunsmith

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Re: NRA suing FL over banning 18-20 year olds from buying long guns
« Reply #3 on: March 11, 2018, 07:17:41 PM »
also, it should be noted that rapist and other of that ilk will target single young woman living
alone because they know a high probability of success
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Pb

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Re: NRA suing FL over banning 18-20 year olds from buying long guns
« Reply #4 on: March 12, 2018, 10:40:49 AM »
I am horrified by all the "A" rated politicians that were happy to crap all over the gun rights of law abiding young adults.  I was surprised at how quickly they turned against us.  I shouldn't have been I guess.

And I must say, Trump has been a piece of $%^ for praising this horrible bill.  Yeah, stab the people who voted for you in the back Trump!  What a jackass.

Perd Hapley

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Re: NRA suing FL over banning 18-20 year olds from buying long guns
« Reply #5 on: March 12, 2018, 11:02:50 AM »
Yeah, stab the people who voted for you in the back Trump!  


Yes, the NRA are the people that voted for him. On the other hand, there's been a lot of talk about how younger people don't like Trump. So maybe that's why he thought it was OK to promote the under-21 thing.

A terrible idea, regardless. Oh, and the very next mass shooting, while we're still debating all of this, is by a guy in his mid-thirties. And in California.  :facepalm:


I guess Trump is feeling the heat, though.
http://dailycaller.com/2018/03/12/trump-wont-raise-minimum-gun-age-explanation/
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Brad Johnson

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Re: NRA suing FL over banning 18-20 year olds from buying long guns
« Reply #6 on: March 12, 2018, 11:28:15 AM »
I wonder how he intends to get his "bumps stocks soon on the way out" part accomplished. The technical part of applicable statutes is unambiguous. There is also both clearly established legal precedent and dozens, if not hundreds, of clarification letters from the BATFEIEIO addressing the issue. Short of a new law, the only thing two possibilities are an Executive Order or an administrative change, neither of which would stand up in court on a purely technical level.

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dogmush

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Re: NRA suing FL over banning 18-20 year olds from buying long guns
« Reply #7 on: March 12, 2018, 12:47:43 PM »
I posted a lengthy facebook rant on the issues with FL's ban bump stocks law, and why it's a freaking nightmare for compliance and enforcement.  I'll excerpt below, but the basics is that the people writing the law don't know what they are trying to ban, and use imprecise language, which while it works well in stump speeches, is less useful in legislation.

Quote from: me
FL just passed a gun control bill, and I live in FL and have guns so as a responsible citizen I perused the bill to make sure I stay in compliance with the law. All 105 pages of it. Here is one small section:
 "790.222 Bump-fire stocks prohibited.—A person may not import into this state or transfer, distribute, sell, keep for sale, offer for sale, possess, or give to another person a bump fire stock. A person who violates this section commits a felony
 740 of the third degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s.775.083, or s. 775.084. As used in this section, the term “bump fire stock” means a conversion kit, a tool, an accessory, or a device used to alter the rate of fire of a firearm to mimic
 automatic weapon fire or which is used to increase the rate of
 fire to a faster rate than is possible for a person to fire such
 semiautomatic firearm unassisted by a kit, a tool, an accessory, or a device."

OK. FL wants to ban Bump Stocks. I don't have any. But hey! that says Felony so let me be sure. A bump stock is any "kit, tool, or accessory used to alter the rate of fire of a firearm to mimic automatic weapon fire". Pause. The *expletive deleted*ck does that mean? AN M2 has a cyclic rate of about 450 rds/min. A GAU-8 can do 4200 rds/min. Which is OK? does that mean if I slow a semi-auto Tec-9's rate of fire down to that of an M2's I'm in trouble? *expletive deleted*it. well what else does it say?

"fire to a faster rate than is possible for a person to fire such
 semiautomatic firearm unassisted by a kit, a tool, an accessory, or a device."

A Person? What the Hell? OK. this is the technical part. This is only for an AR-15, but it will serve to illustrate my point. When you fire an AR-15, the bullet moves down the barrel until it passes a gas port, where some of the gas is bled off, carried back to the bolt carrier, and used to unlock the bolt carrier and give it a hard shove backwards. The bolt carrier retracts, and cocks the hammer on the way back. The hammer is caught and held by the disconnector because the trigger is still to the rear. The bolt carrier cycles forward, the trigger is released, and the hammer falls to the sear on the trigger, where if the trigger is pulled it drops again. That's a super basic description of the AR trigger system, but it'll do. One other detail is needed. If the hammer falls before the bolt carrier is all the way forward, you get what's called "hammer follow" where the hammer hits the firing pin without enough energy to ignite the round. That's why auto M16's have auto sears to control hammer timing. OK. That's the basics. Tracking? That means the rate of fire of any specific AR is mechanically controlled by the length of time it takes the bolt carrier to fully cycle back and forward, and the hammer to fall from the locked position (this is called Cyclic Rate). And it is "human" controlled by the length of time it takes to pull, release and pull again the trigger. Still tracking? Bear with me, This is where it get's important. ANYONE, with a little practice can pull an AR trigger faster then the weapon will cycle. Inducing hammer follow is pretty easy. Functionally the cyclic rate of an AR-15 is the Rate of fire, at least for the first magazine. Which means ANYTHING that causes the bolt to cycle faster, violates this law. Lighter buffer? Fires faster. Lighter hammer, or stiffer hammer spring? Fires faster. hunting or competition trigger? You don't want to read the post that details what tuning the gas system does for bolt carrier velocities.Fires faster. No one really talks about that, because no one really shoots at cyclic that much, because it's inaccurate. But there is no provision in that law for faster accurate fire. Just faster then a person could fire without the kit. And that's just an AR. Now every law-abiding gun owner in FL needs to learn the functioning of every firearm type they have to at least the level of detail I just provided for you, and figure out if they have anything that can make it fire faster, because mere possession of such is illegal. Hot ammo and a blowback 9mm? Probably illegal.

This is not "gunsplaining" or "throwing jargon around". You (liberals) made a new FELONY without even knowing what it was. It's probably impossible to actually comply with this law, and it's impossible to enforce it. So they'll pick a few obvious things and say "that's illegal" and not bother with what the law actually says. And once again we have a gun law not being enforced, and not really enforceable, and once again it won't be enough. Folks will be calling for more laws they don't understand and can't articulate soon enough. And people like me will be decried for being unwilling to compromise with people who are, quite literally, spouting gibberish.

Later in the thread I mentioned kits like a Zev trigger for Glocks, or a Sig Short Reset Trigger kit.  Both undoubtedly make you able to fire the weapon faster.  There's been no clarification from FL Legislature on any of this yet.

Also, the dozen or so leftists I'm Facebook Friends with have yet to chime in on this particular law, or why *expletive deleted*it like this makes us unwilling to "compromise"

Jamisjockey

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Re: NRA suing FL over banning 18-20 year olds from buying long guns
« Reply #8 on: March 12, 2018, 12:52:29 PM »
I am horrified by all the "A" rated politicians that were happy to crap all over the gun rights of law abiding young adults.  I was surprised at how quickly they turned against us.  I shouldn't have been I guess.

And I must say, Trump has been a piece of $%^ for praising this horrible bill.  Yeah, stab the people who voted for you in the back Trump!  What a jackass.

Hate to say it but I was right about Trump. 
JD

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MechAg94

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Re: NRA suing FL over banning 18-20 year olds from buying long guns
« Reply #9 on: March 12, 2018, 05:03:32 PM »
Did Trump comment in a speech?  I didn't notice any tweets on the Florida law.  


From what I can see, the Florida primaries are later on in the summer.  There is still time for new candidates to file.  For those in Florida, find out who you thought was with you and 1) make sure they have a challenger, and 2) vote for the other guy.  Make the R's and as many of the D's pay for going against gun rights.  Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of campaign donations got put in the right pockets last week to make that law happen. 
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

MechAg94

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Re: NRA suing FL over banning 18-20 year olds from buying long guns
« Reply #10 on: March 12, 2018, 05:06:03 PM »
Hate to say it but I was right about Trump.  
Yeah, you and a lot of people before the 2016 election.  Most sober people I heard thought he was maybe a mild lean toward gun rights at best and hoped his son would be a good influence.  IMO, that is more or less what we are seeing.  

Also, remember that Trump is primarily doing what the NRA is supporting.  The NRA top dogs put out that letter supporting a ban on bump stocks and they have been supporting the FixNICS bill.  Trump may think he is supporting gun owners. 
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

BlueStarLizzard

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Re: NRA suing FL over banning 18-20 year olds from buying long guns
« Reply #11 on: March 12, 2018, 06:13:10 PM »
Hate to say it but I was right about Trump. 

*shrug* It could have been Hillary...
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freakazoid

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Re: NRA suing FL over banning 18-20 year olds from buying long guns
« Reply #12 on: March 12, 2018, 09:24:18 PM »
I posted a lengthy facebook rant on the issues with FL's ban bump stocks law, and why it's a freaking nightmare for compliance and enforcement.  I'll excerpt below, but the basics is that the people writing the law don't know what they are trying to ban, and use imprecise language, which while it works well in stump speeches, is less useful in legislation.

Later in the thread I mentioned kits like a Zev trigger for Glocks, or a Sig Short Reset Trigger kit.  Both undoubtedly make you able to fire the weapon faster.  There's been no clarification from FL Legislature on any of this yet.

Also, the dozen or so leftists I'm Facebook Friends with have yet to chime in on this particular law, or why *expletive deleted*it like this makes us unwilling to "compromise"

Going off of that, simply changing gas tube lengths, or changing whole uppers, would change the possible ROF.
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MechAg94

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Re: NRA suing FL over banning 18-20 year olds from buying long guns
« Reply #13 on: March 13, 2018, 09:26:28 AM »
Going off of that, simply changing gas tube lengths, or changing whole uppers, would change the possible ROF.
And that is the main complaint I hear from everyone about that language.  Any number of minor modifications could be said to violate it.  Not to mention the part about simulating full auto fire and fingers/belt loops.

It seems to be the same language I heard the ATF was considering so it is likely part of an anti-gun legislative push in all the states (I heard that mentioned on Gun Talk I think).  The rest of us will likely see similar bills pushed locally. 
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

Pb

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Re: NRA suing FL over banning 18-20 year olds from buying long guns
« Reply #14 on: March 13, 2018, 11:02:32 AM »
I read today that the average man buys a gun first at 19 years of age (don't know if it is true or not).  This is a huge problem for the gun culture if it is allowed to stand by the courts.  Even CA lets 18-20 year olds buy long guns.  There are only a small number of states where this is banned.