Military plane crashes in Georgia

[Perd Hapley]

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/05/02/c-130-military-transport-plane-crashes-near-airport-in-savannah-faa-says.html

A military cargo ship has crashed in Georgia, with 5 aboard.

[Hawkmoon]

Crashed just after take-off. I wonder if it was due to shifting cargo, like the crash in that Youtube video a few years ago.

[Northwoods]

That was just a little ways away from where a friend works (Gulfstream).

[BobR]

Air National Guard plane on the way to Davis-Monthan, wonder if going into mothballs. I didn't know an Air Guard unit flew the WC130's.


bob

[Hawkmoon]

Not a cargo plane as originally reported. The WC-130 is a weather reconnaissance aircraft. That puts my theory about shifting cargo in doubt. But an eyewitness said it didn't appear to nose down, it "went flat" and basically fell out of the sky.

I guess that's why they have accident review boards.

[BobR]

I just saw a video off of a nearby cam, it was nose down and spiraling in. I won't make any assumptions.

bob

[Hawkmoon]

Here's the video link: http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-military-plane-crash-georgia-20180502-story.html

It definitely augured in -- it didn't pancake.

[Fly320s]

Looks like a low altitude stall/spin.  It went about 3/4 of a full turn before impact.  My FIL flew C-130s.  He said they were very easy to fly and hard to stall because you can use the prop wash to power out of high-AOA problems.

Short of a major system failure, I think this will be pilot error into a stall/spin.

[BobR]

Looks like a low altitude stall/spin.  It went about 3/4 of a full turn before impact.  My FIL flew C-130s.  He said they were very easy to fly and hard to stall because you can use the prop wash to power out of high-AOA problems.

Short of a major system failure, I think this will be pilot error into a stall/spin.

Another reason is the engines are always running at 100% RPM on the T56 engine (probably all turboprops). You shove the power lever up and you have power right now, no waiting to spool up. I can't see a lot of reasons for something like this unless they got into Vmca (below minimum controllable airspeed). We used to do Vmca demos for the new pilots in P3s, always 10k AGL or higher so we could recover.

bob

[KD5NRH]

He said they were very easy to fly

On the other hand, people still crash Super Cubs; can't get much easier to fly than that.  (OK, still touchy to land with any wind other than a steady headwind, but I've helped pick up the remains of a couple that weren't trying to land at the time.)  Given that there were no visible detached pieces in the air, I'm going to have to agree on pretty serious pilot error.

[Northwoods]

On the other hand, people still crash Super Cubs; can't get much easier to fly than that.  (OK, still touchy to land with any wind other than a steady headwind, but I've helped pick up the remains of a couple that weren't trying to land at the time.)  Given that there were no visible detached pieces in the air, I'm going to have to agree on pretty serious pilot error.

Could have also been a flight control systems failure.  Pilot error would be the higher probability, but not 100%.

[Hawkmoon]

Unless it did have a payload, and the load shifted. Like this one, in Afghanistan: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7sUWC2jfjqI

[BobR]

Unless it did have a payload, and the load shifted. Like this one, in Afghanistan: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7sUWC2jfjqI

It was on the way to the boneyard, probably only had passengers and their luggage for the trip. I really doubt it had cargo. This is one of those that may never be sorted out. No recorders of any kind on a plane that old most likely and the fire following the crash would destroy a lot of the evidence.

bob

[Devonai]

All of our H-model Hercs are ~40 years old and have FDRs and CVRs. I don't see why this one wouldn't.

[BobR]

All of our H-model Hercs are ~40 years old and have FDRs and CVRs. I don't see why this one wouldn't.

Maybe it does, I didn't realize they were retrofitting older .mil planes with FDR and CVRs. It would be a bonus to the accident investigation team if it does. This was one of the oldest C130s still flying from what I have heard, nearly 60 years old.

bob

[230RN]

Here's the video link: http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-military-plane-crash-georgia-20180502-story.html

It definitely augured in -- it didn't pancake.

Here's a less "proprietary" source for that video:

https://youtu.be/cTyJ3R9e6gc

00:23, supposedly genuine.

[just Warren]

Wikipedia has an article on the crash.

The pilot reported an emergency and was trying to turn back.

[Northwoods]

Wikipedia has an article on the crash.

The pilot reported an emergency and was trying to turn back.

Sounds like he tried the "impossible turn" as a result of the emergency.

[230RN]

High-angle banked turn.

When I lived near the Boulder (CO) municipal airport, I used to watch when the gliders released from their tow plane.

The tow plane would then make a 90° bank and drop literally (literally) straight down like a rock, towline trailing straight up.

It didn't take an aeronautical engineer to figure out that there was no more vertical lift vector with the wings pointed straight up and down.  The tow pilots would straighten out at some lower altitude just above Hayden Lake, and fly back to the runway to land.

When they dropped down like that, I remember always hoping the pilot knew how to swim, because they sure came down fast.  I mean like 31 feet per second per second fast.

It was quite dramatic.

Terry

REFs:
https://bouldercolorado.gov/airport
https://www.airnav.com/airport/KBDU

[Hawkmoon]

Sounds like he tried the "impossible turn" as a result of the emergency.

My grandfather was a private pilot, and my uncle (his son) was a bomber captain in WW2. They both said the worst thing you can do if you have a power failure on takeoff is to try to make a u-turn and get back to the runway.

[BobR]

he C130 has a thing called fin stall.

Basically a power on stall that causes the plane's nose to fall through and then a left hand turn. The C130 Flight Manual prohibits power on stalls. It could have been this type of stall. If it was, as low as they were there would have not been a chance to recover.

https://commons.erau.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.bing.com%2F&httpsredir=1&article=1531&context=publication


https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=3&v=ldwWfQb4Odo

bob

[Fly320s]

he C130 has a thing called fin stall.

Basically a power on stall that causes the plane's nose to fall through and then a left hand turn. The C130 Flight Manual prohibits power on stalls. It could have been this type of stall. If it was, as low as they were there would have not been a chance to recover.

https://commons.erau.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.bing.com%2F&httpsredir=1&article=1531&context=publication


https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=3&v=ldwWfQb4Odo

bob

That is interesting; I’ve never heard of it.  I wonder if that is common on four-engine high-wing planes. 

I used to fly DO-328 turboprops, a twin-engine high-wing, but I don’t remember any warnings about fin stall.

[KD5NRH]

Sounds like he tried the "impossible turn" as a result of the emergency.

With no significant load, I'd think a 130 would need to lose 2-3 engines to have much trouble with that.

[just Warren]

It was an old plane, is it possible that its frame cracked? 

[BobR]

It was an old plane, is it possible that its frame cracked? 

Probably not. This really looks like a case of getting into VmcAir, where you get below the minimum airspeed to maintain controlled flight. The question that really begs the question is how did they get there, was it a power on stall, loss of an engine on takeoff and they forgot the first rule of aviation (fly the plane), those are the questions that take time to figure out and with no survivors it will take even longer.

bob