Author Topic: Boot camp, brainwashing, indoctrination, hazing, etc.  (Read 4911 times)

Perd Hapley

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Boot camp, brainwashing, indoctrination, hazing, etc.
« on: January 22, 2007, 11:10:49 AM »
On another thread, there's an argument going about brain-washing in the military, but it's a little off-topic.  I figured we could have a good talk on such things in the military and in other areas as well. http://www.armedpolitesociety.com/index.php?topic=5715.0

Here's my idea about the pressure and "indoctrination" in military basic training based on my experience and ponderings.  Let's hear your thoughts as well.

Where do we draw the line between blind obedience and efficiency?  Thinking for oneself is grand, but it doesn't always have a place on the battlefield.  Following orders works because of speed and coordination.  When rounds start coming in, there's no time for argument.  Everyone needs to do what's expected of them, and there can't be any bickering about who's in charge.  Are there brilliant tacticians and strategists that win because they can think outside the box?  Of course, but any sizable plan is going to need some things worked out before the bullets start flying.  In fact, that's the whole point of military "group-think."  The generals and captains can't explain every detail of every operation to everyone on down the chain of command, and probably shouldn't waste time doing so.  A mid or higher level officer or NCO has information and experience that would take a long time to explain to someone at a lower level.  The colonel sees a big picture involving dozens of units, (or more) while the private usually only cares what he has to do the next day.  He has spent considerable time studying the wars and battles of the past, hopefully to keep him from making the newbie mistakes that private snuffy would make.  That's why following orders is critical to survival.  When a unit is under attack and people are dying there is no time for every one of thousands of individuals to question every policy or make suggestions.

When it comes to basic training, a major and extremely useful goal is to reduce every individual to the bare essentials of existence.  It lowers your expectations.  In modern America, that's quite necessary.  War is about survival, not being comfortable.  On overseas deployments, you won't be able to live in a nice house by yourself and get a latte on the way to work.  You must learn to live on the bare necessities, crammed into a room or tent with three other people.  And you learn to swallow abuse, poor conditions and criticism and rise above it.  Better you learn under friendly custody than in a Chinese POW camp.  You learn that you can survive such things. 

You can't express yourself through superficialities like haircut, clothing, a car, etc.  Ironically, this can bring out true individualism.  You have to make your mark through what you do and how you do it, instead of piercing your ear or shaving your head.   You learn what you have in common with others of different classes and races, and what really makes you different. 

Your thoughts?
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Boot camp, brainwashing, indoctrination, hazing, etc.
« Reply #1 on: January 22, 2007, 11:29:42 AM »
I should add I put hazing in the mix because there's a value in having an indoctrination or hazing ritual, so that every member of a group has a common denominator.  How every person reacts to such adversity tells us something.  It also breaks the ice, like a sledge hammer.  It builds intimacy, mushy-gushy as that may sound. 

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Thor

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Re: Boot camp, brainwashing, indoctrination, hazing, etc.
« Reply #2 on: January 22, 2007, 12:16:43 PM »
fistful, pretty much steel on target. Basic Training, boot camp, the Military Academies do another thing that you didn't specify, but alluded to, and that is they break down the individual in order to get them to become a competent team member. The military is one giant team, after all.

Did I get "brainwashed" while in boot camp?? I don't think so. I DID learn to become part of the team. Individuality DOES have it's place in the military, to an extent. This is how we learn to improve things. People are often taught to adapt, improvise & overcome. This cannot be accomplished through brainwashing, automatonic behavior, etc.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Boot camp, brainwashing, indoctrination, hazing, etc.
« Reply #3 on: January 22, 2007, 12:49:22 PM »
People are often taught to adapt, improvise & overcome. This cannot be accomplished through brainwashing, automatonic behavior, etc.

And that was my next point.  I was infantry, and when we ran field problems or force-on-force training, RESULTS mattered.  As soon as an action was completed, there was an after-action review.  Private so-and-so, what was your objective?  Sergeant whats-his-name, what was your plan?  What do you think went well?  What did you do wrong?  What could you have done better?  And so on.  Good points were discussed.  Mistakes were noted.  Suggestions made for better results in future.  And we were reminded of how the lives of our comrades rested on our actions and decisions.

From OSUT training forward, we had all been taught how to react to an ambush, how to use one team to suppress an enemy position while the other team assaulted, etc.  That's not brainwashing, that's just teaching techniques our predecessors have learned at cost of blood.  But reciting the proper steps was never enough.  Could you do it?  For what it's worth I never could.  I don't think fast, I think hard.  Smiley 

The point being, if that kind of pressure doesn't make you think, what does? 
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wingnutx

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Re: Boot camp, brainwashing, indoctrination, hazing, etc.
« Reply #4 on: January 22, 2007, 01:10:11 PM »
I didn't become brainwashed, but I did develop muscle memory for certain actions so I would initiate before actually thinking, and I learned to function while under tremendous stress and with a full load of adrenaline.


Perd Hapley

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Re: Boot camp, brainwashing, indoctrination, hazing, etc.
« Reply #5 on: January 22, 2007, 02:15:35 PM »
Quote
they break down the individual in order to get them to become a competent team member.

I'm not sure what you mean by "break down."  There is an aspect of a forced humility that demands you recognize you are but one part of a team in which everyone else is just as important as you are.  At the same time, you are led by people who you must learn from, whether you like it or not.  They treat you like a dog, but anyone with any sense sees through all this.  They say R. Lee Ermey wasn't really acting in Full Metal Jacket, he was just being a DI.  But of course that's the biggest act of all.  The drill sergeant doesn't really think every platoon is the sorriest bunch of pig excrement he's ever had to mold into men.  It's all a very serious game that takes away all the respect and dignity you thought you had and makes you earn more than you could have had before.  As we all know, great adversity makes you a better person. 

Ok, that's enough for now.  Am I getting too sappy?   smiley
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280plus

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Re: Boot camp, brainwashing, indoctrination, hazing, etc.
« Reply #6 on: January 22, 2007, 02:56:44 PM »
I didn't become brainwashed, but I did develop muscle memory for certain actions so I would initiate before actually thinking, and I learned to function while under tremendous stress and with a full load of adrenaline.
yea, what he said, except my actions were more related to things like damage control and fire fighting.

I do recall now though, graduation day, my uncle, an Army VN Vet, says to me, "I'll bet you feel like you could grab onto the world and kick it's ass right now." I said, "Yes I DO!!"

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Art Eatman

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Re: Boot camp, brainwashing, indoctrination, hazing, etc.
« Reply #7 on: January 22, 2007, 05:29:29 PM »
The idea of Basic Training is to break down the individualistic ingrained response to orders of, "No I won't!" and get guys to become part of a unit.  Get guys to be ABLE to function as "well regulated" in the original sense of the phrase.  Function as a team, and do it by reflex.  That's why high school sports guys do well in the military.  They already understand teamwork.

The Army does NOT want automatons.  Instead, what're wanted are nnovative thinkers who can function well within the necessary framework that is a properly functioning system.

Now, that's sorta the 'perfect system", which exists nowhere on earth.  The hazing crapola is just part of the human nature aspect of groups. 

Art
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Thor

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Re: Boot camp, brainwashing, indoctrination, hazing, etc.
« Reply #8 on: January 22, 2007, 05:50:53 PM »
The idea of Basic Training is to break down the individualistic ingrained response to orders of, "No I won't!" and get guys to become part of a unit.  Get guys to be ABLE to function as "well regulated" in the original sense of the phrase.  Function as a team, and do it by reflex.  That's why high school sports guys do well in the military.  They already understand teamwork.

The Army does NOT want automatons.  Instead, what're wanted are innovative thinkers who can function well within the necessary framework that is a properly functioning system.

Now, that's sorta the 'perfect system", which exists nowhere on earth.  The hazing crapola is just part of the human nature aspect of groups. 

Art

Art, yessir, you merely explained what I was attempting to get across.

Fistful, what I meant by "break down" is exactly what both you and Art have said.
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Bogie

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Re: Boot camp, brainwashing, indoctrination, hazing, etc.
« Reply #9 on: January 22, 2007, 06:54:14 PM »
Team building, team building, team building... I'll hire a vet any day before I'll hire the captain of the football team. Why? Because they can deal with it when the crap starts hitting the fan, and they're not afraid to reach out for help.
 
Basic is about "quit being you, and become part of us." Yeah, it's a little weird, but it works.
 
Had a dumb kid in basic who, one day in the chowline, went nutso, and started trying to stab a loaf of bread to death.
 
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HankB

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Re: Boot camp, brainwashing, indoctrination, hazing, etc.
« Reply #10 on: January 23, 2007, 03:32:03 AM »
Quote
The generals and captains can't explain every detail of every operation to everyone on down the chain of command, . . .
Ideally, yes . . . but in these days of micromanagement and politically correct ROEs, sometimes it may be because there is no rational explanation.

Aside from physical demands, that's probably why the military wants young guys - with less "life experience" than old codgers in their 30's and 40's, they're easier to mold into the desired form.
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Art Eatman

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Re: Boot camp, brainwashing, indoctrination, hazing, etc.
« Reply #11 on: January 23, 2007, 05:50:45 AM »
Well, young guys still think, "It can't happen to me!"  Old guys know better.

Art
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