Author Topic: Russian launch to ISS aborts, crew is safe  (Read 1141 times)

MillCreek

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Russian launch to ISS aborts, crew is safe
« on: October 11, 2018, 08:45:43 AM »
https://www.popsci.com/soyuz-emergency-ballistic-landing?dom=rss-default&src=syn

https://www.npr.org/2018/10/11/656473889/rocket-launch-failure-forces-astronaut-and-cosmonaut-to-make-ballistic-landing?utm_medium=RSS&utm_campaign=news

It looks to be a booster rocket issue, possibly at separation.  The first launch abort since 1975.  The Russians are suspending manned launches pending an investigation. The current crew on the ISS has a Soyuz capsule that expires in December 2018, and the Americans do not currently have a manned launch capability.
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MillCreek
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Quote from: Angel Eyes on August 09, 2018, 01:56:15 AM
You are one lousy risk manager.

RoadKingLarry

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Re: Russian launch to ISS aborts, crew is safe
« Reply #1 on: October 11, 2018, 10:21:34 AM »
Do we get a refund on the $70M we give them to take our guys up?
Or, do they just offer a $100 voucher and free peanuts on the next flight?
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.

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230RN

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Re: Russian launch to ISS aborts, crew is safe
« Reply #2 on: October 12, 2018, 06:52:51 PM »
Quote
Gerst took command of the ISS last week, when their three companions—Drew Feustel, Ricky Arnold, and Oleg Artemyev—departed back to Earth. Russian News Agency TASS said that the astronauts on board have enough supplies even without the expected Soyuz arrival, and that their operations will continue as scheduled.

Three words:  Back. Up. Gun.

Two is one and one is none.

I wonder what "enough supplies" means.  Did they get resupplied last week?
WHATEVER YOUR DEFINITION OF "INFRINGE " IS, YOU SHOULDN'T BE DOING IT.

AZRedhawk44

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Re: Russian launch to ISS aborts, crew is safe
« Reply #3 on: October 13, 2018, 07:47:41 PM »
Quote
The first launch abort since 1975.

1983 called, feeling particularly left out.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soyuz_7K-ST_No._16L

It was on the pad, but crew was inside the capsule and they rode the LES as the rocket exploded underneath them. 
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MillCreek

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Re: Russian launch to ISS aborts, crew is safe
« Reply #4 on: October 14, 2018, 02:30:13 PM »
^^^Wow, that was a really close thing for the launch escape system to be activated.  A paradox: you want it to be easy to activate in case of emergency, yet you do not want it to go off by accident.
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MillCreek
Snohomish County, WA  USA


Quote from: Angel Eyes on August 09, 2018, 01:56:15 AM
You are one lousy risk manager.

230RN

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Re: Russian launch to ISS aborts, crew is safe
« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2018, 04:10:48 PM »
^^^Wow, that was a really close thing for the launch escape system to be activated.  A paradox: you want it to be easy to activate in case of emergency, yet you do not want it to go off by accident.[/b]


Maybe we ought to invent something like that for firearms.
WHATEVER YOUR DEFINITION OF "INFRINGE " IS, YOU SHOULDN'T BE DOING IT.

RoadKingLarry

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Re: Russian launch to ISS aborts, crew is safe
« Reply #6 on: October 14, 2018, 04:57:38 PM »
^^^Wow, that was a really close thing for the launch escape system to be activated.  A paradox: you want it to be easy to activate in case of emergency, yet you do not want it to go off by accident.


That's what she said...
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.

Samuel Adams

KD5NRH

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Re: Russian launch to ISS aborts, crew is safe
« Reply #7 on: October 14, 2018, 07:32:47 PM »
The current crew on the ISS has a Soyuz capsule that expires in December 2018, and the Americans do not currently have a manned launch capability.

What's needed right now isn't really manned launch capability, but unmanned launch, capable of docking and safe manned return, so they're not limited by the "best before" sticker on the Soyuz.

Let's see what the private brains come up with in the next month or two.  Frankly, I'd be shocked if SpaceX and Virgin don't already have something mostly developed that fits the bill, since Musk and Branson aren't idiots, and would have seen the possibility of taking over ferry service to ISS and future projects long ago.

dogmush

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Re: Russian launch to ISS aborts, crew is safe
« Reply #8 on: October 14, 2018, 07:47:11 PM »
It's not like the Soyuz capsule up there turns into a pumpkin on New Year's either.

They'll do their best to get a crew up there, but if they have to fudge the "certification" by a month or so it'll still work.

cordex

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Re: Russian launch to ISS aborts, crew is safe
« Reply #9 on: October 14, 2018, 07:51:49 PM »
Soyuz is already (theoretically) capable of unmanned launch and docking, so that is an option.
The capsule up there has a finite lifespan mostly because of propellant breakdown. 

KD5NRH

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Re: Russian launch to ISS aborts, crew is safe
« Reply #10 on: October 14, 2018, 08:33:27 PM »
The capsule up there has a finite lifespan mostly because of propellant breakdown.

So what's it take to refurb it in space?  Surely someone thought of that possibility before.  Presumably, we do still have the ability to lob just about anything they'd need up there.

AZRedhawk44

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Re: Russian launch to ISS aborts, crew is safe
« Reply #11 on: October 14, 2018, 08:44:29 PM »
What's needed right now isn't really manned launch capability, but unmanned launch, capable of docking and safe manned return, so they're not limited by the "best before" sticker on the Soyuz.

Let's see what the private brains come up with in the next month or two.  Frankly, I'd be shocked if SpaceX and Virgin don't already have something mostly developed that fits the bill, since Musk and Branson aren't idiots, and would have seen the possibility of taking over ferry service to ISS and future projects long ago.

Virgin can only barely get above the Karman line, and they can't get near enough horizontal velocity to actually attain orbit.  They're not going anywhere with SpaceShip1, near the ISS.  Even if it had an IDS-style docking adapter.

Blue Origin isn't going anywhere with their suborbital New Shepherd hopper either.  Same problems in a different shaped stack.

The only serious contenders able to reach the ISS with what is considered prototype or beta-acceptance hardware are SpaceX, Boeing, and Sierra Nevada.  I'd really count SN's Dreamchaser as a more alpha-level product since I think it has yet to be mated to a booster... but I suspect the same could be said of Boeing's CST-100, too.  Big difference there is Boeing/ULA make their own rocket and the Atlas team has been working closely with the CST-100 team, whereas SN hasn't been working with SpaceX or ULA regarding Dreamchaser as a payload.  At least at a serious level.

One "could" also throw Orion into the mix (Lockheed's capsule that rides on the yet to be built SLS rocket).  But no Orions are ready right now, and no SLS's are ready right now.  A mock Orion rode on a Delta IV Heavy a few years back for high velocity reentry testing, but evidently the heat shield is undergoing modification after that particular test, so it wasn't particularly positive results there.  Even if a DIVH is available somewhere in ULA's manifest and an Orion is ready, the re-worked heatshield hasn't been tested to prove humans can survive reentry in it.

There is a crew Dragon capsule at the Cape right now undergoing final integration checkouts.  It's slated for Demo Mission 1 (DM1) in December or January.

Boeing was recently sent back to the drawing board with CST-100 due to some hypergolic fuel leak issues during a launch abort test a couple months back.  That capsule isn't riding anywhere any time soon.

So, the only real possibility from the US front of any intervention, is from SpaceX.  Dragon's heat shield is just an upgrade of the current cargo Dragon craft.  It's thicker and designed for interplanetary reentry speeds, and a newer formulation of PICA-X that SpaceX has been using for cargo Dragon craft for years.

But, NASA being NASA, they would NEVER allow SpaceX's Crew Dragon to work as a lifeboat for ISS crew without a reentry test being done first.  They'll de-crew the ISS before they rely on that.

Realistically, the only solution that's going to happen is as Cordex described:  Russia will loft an unmanned Soyuz to replace the one currently up there.  If there's a failure with that launch then crew will leave the ISS.

Which is a big back of suck for SpaceX, since they're in the lead over Boeing in delivering a crew vehicle to the ISS.  There's a flag left up there from the last Shuttle mission, intended for receipt for the first company that builds a private vehicle capable of transferring crew.  SpaceX has been waiting for months for a window to send Crew Dragon to the ISS.  Boeing has behind the scenes pull that they are using to do a bunch of "paperwork-proofs" to demonstrate their capsule is manned-ready for its first demo mission, and NASA is considering putting a crew on Boeing's DM1 launch in spring of next year.

I've really been pulling for NewSpace to punch OldSpace in the nose over this one.  It'd suck if Boeing gets that flag before SpaceX due to backroom favoritism and schedule manipulation.

ETA:  I failed to express the collateral damage correctly.  If ISS is de-crewed, then SpaceX cannot send their DM1.  Contractually, the ISS must be crewed for observation and feedback purposes for the mission to be a success.  As well as for emergency damage control in the event of malfunctions.  So SpaceX's DM1 will be pushed back until Soyuz can put crews back up there.  That pushes SpaceX further from their finish line, but Boeing can keep working their puppet strings behind the scenes to try and fly manned from the get-go.
"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist."
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AZRedhawk44

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Re: Russian launch to ISS aborts, crew is safe
« Reply #12 on: October 14, 2018, 08:46:14 PM »
So what's it take to refurb it in space?  Surely someone thought of that possibility before.  Presumably, we do still have the ability to lob just about anything they'd need up there.

The problem is the reliable lifespan of the hypergolic fuels in the Soyuz maneuvering tanks.  They turn highly toxic (even more so) and ineffective after 200-something days of storage.

So you need fresh hypergols delivered.  Might as well just send a new ship, since you can't store the hypergols at the ISS due to the same problem.
"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist."
--Lysander Spooner

I reject your authoritah!

AZRedhawk44

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Re: Russian launch to ISS aborts, crew is safe
« Reply #13 on: October 14, 2018, 09:00:08 PM »
SpaceX could use their DM2 as a lifeboat if it launched uncrewed.  DM1 would demonstrate reentry and splashdown capability. 

Between DM1 and DM2 there's supposed to be an in-flight launch abort test.  That's the last stage in SpaceX's qualification regime.  I believe DM2 is supposed to be crewed, but a short stay at ISS (2 weeks or so).  If the schedule were flipped so that DM2 flies right after DM1 and docks to ISS as a lifeboat, but is launched unmanned, that might work.  It would be highly unorthodox and only an Apollo-era NASA would undertake it.  Crews are supposed to be trained on their arrival and departure craft.  Having crew untrained on Dragon that rely on it for a reentry and lifeboat craft is something they won't want to deal with unless loss of life is otherwise 100% certain (i.e. ISS structure damage or similar).
"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist."
--Lysander Spooner

I reject your authoritah!

KD5NRH

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Re: Russian launch to ISS aborts, crew is safe
« Reply #14 on: October 14, 2018, 11:39:25 PM »
The problem is the reliable lifespan of the hypergolic fuels in the Soyuz maneuvering tanks.  They turn highly toxic (even more so) and ineffective after 200-something days of storage.

Well, they do have a rather large well ventilated area away from any concentration of people.

Quote
So you need fresh hypergols delivered.  Might as well just send a new ship, since you can't store the hypergols at the ISS due to the same problem.

More curious if the tanks are either modular or easily emptied and refilled under the available conditions.  Heaving a few canisters up that high would be easier than the full mass of a ship.