Author Topic: Arguments against homosexual adoption?  (Read 10344 times)

roo_ster

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Re: Arguments against homosexual adoption?
« Reply #50 on: February 13, 2007, 09:05:51 AM »
Quote
It doesn't make sense to allow gay couples to adopt when there is a nearly inexhaustible supply of stable MARRIED heterosexual couples waiting to adopt.

Is that a factual statement?  Not calling you a liar, but I've always been given to understand there was a lack of adoptive parents compared to the kids in foster care.

Or is it true for cute infants but not surly pre-teens?
True for the infants, according to several folks (hetero couples, all) I know who have gone through the process...at an average cost of ~$30K per adoption in the 'states.

Adoptions elsewhere can cost less, but have other time/cost issues (hetero & homo couples in my admittedly small data set).

Not nearly as many takers for the surly pre-teens who have been scarred by the foster care system.  The gay couples who I know who have adopted have opted for foreign-born infants/near-infants rather than US-born older children. 

Which brings me to wonder why in the world are we (for the larger part) using the foster parent system and not the orphanage system?  I know several adults who were brought up in orphanages and went to school with a bunch.  Generally a much better-adjusted person than scarred veterans of the foster care system, has been my experience.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Arguments against homosexual adoption?
« Reply #51 on: February 13, 2007, 09:11:32 AM »
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The gay couples who I know who have adopted have opted for foreign-born infants/near-infants rather than US-born older children.

Aha!!  That just proves that queers hate America!   angry

Kidding, folks.  Just kidding.
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brimic

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Re: Arguments against homosexual adoption?
« Reply #52 on: February 13, 2007, 12:08:35 PM »
Quote
Quote
It doesn't make sense to allow gay couples to adopt when there is a nearly inexhaustible supply of stable MARRIED heterosexual couples waiting to adopt.

Is that a factual statement?  Not calling you a liar, but I've always been given to understand there was a lack of adoptive parents compared to the kids in foster care.

Or is it true for cute infants but not surly pre-teens?

I honestly can't see a huge amount of harm with a homosexual couple adopting a teen who is messed up already, but I doubt that those children are high up on the list for Homosexuals to adopt.
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SteveS

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Re: Arguments against homosexual adoption?
« Reply #53 on: February 13, 2007, 12:44:47 PM »

Which brings me to wonder why in the world are we (for the larger part) using the foster parent system and not the orphanage system?  I know several adults who were brought up in orphanages and went to school with a bunch.  Generally a much better-adjusted person than scarred veterans of the foster care system, has been my experience.

Cost, for one.  Placing a child in a residential setting is far more expensive than placing them in a home and paying the caregivers a stipend. 
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Matthew Carberry

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Re: Arguments against homosexual adoption?
« Reply #54 on: February 13, 2007, 06:49:29 PM »
Well, in an institution we can have them make wallets and license plates and such, earn their keep.

And no pudding if they don't finish their meat.  grin
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tyme

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Re: Arguments against homosexual adoption?
« Reply #55 on: February 14, 2007, 04:22:20 AM »
Quote from: CAnnoneer
A kid that grows up in a same-sex union will be even more messed-up than one in dysfunctional heterosexual families.

Link?  I've read a fair amount that says there's no significant data that gay adoption screws up the kids.

Quote from: CAnnoneer
Like it or not, youngsters learn by example and spend most of their semi-sentient years doing enormous amount of ingraining by imitating adults.

That's an argument not just against gay adoption, but against allowing any homosexual(s) to raise a child.  There's no principled way to prevent gay parents from naturally having babies via 3rd parties, or from using artificial insemination or surrogates, so it seems patently absurd to me that the government should categorically deny gays from being able to adopt.

Again, where's the evidence that gay parents cause problems with childhood development?  Gays are still humans, and there are all sorts of different parental arrangements in the animal kingdom.  If a single parent of unknown sexual orientation can raise a child, why not gay parents?  There's plenty of evidence that sexual orientation is not one of the qualities of parents that's imitated.  Exhibit 1: Mary Cheney. (and OMG, she's pregnant!  Don't know precisely how, and don't care.  That's so cool... daughter of the VP having a baby to be raised presumably by herself and her lesbian partner!)

Quote from: Antibubba
Would 1 mother and 1 father be the ideal?  Sure.

I'm not so sure.  I like (in theory) Heinlein's concept of a line marriage, though in most places that sort of arrangement would be a social nightmare for everyone involved.  I wonder how much of society would end up in line-marriage type arrangements if infidelity wasn't (i.e. if society lost its perception that marriage is 1:1).  I think it's a superior family model.  More parents means there's more chance that some respectable father and mother figure(s) are in each child's life, and more adults in a family means less financial pressure, which is a major cause of domestic unrest and poor parenting.  There's more oversight by more adults; a badly-behaving parent can be kicked out with much less impact than a traditional divorce, particularly since the badly-behaved parent is unlikely to have been very involved in any of the children's lives.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Arguments against homosexual adoption?
« Reply #56 on: February 14, 2007, 04:42:49 AM »
Quote from: CAnnoneer
Like it or not, youngsters learn by example and spend most of their semi-sentient years doing enormous amount of ingraining by imitating adults.

That's an argument not just against gay adoption, but against allowing any homosexual(s) to raise a child. 

Not at all.  There's a big difference between removing a child from his parent or guardian, and giving a child to someone that he doesn't already have a connection with. 
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CAnnoneer

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Re: Arguments against homosexual adoption?
« Reply #57 on: February 14, 2007, 05:59:33 AM »
Quote from: tyme
Link?  I've read a fair amount that says there's no significant data that gay adoption screws up the kids.

It is a known psychological fact that boys that grow up in a family of highly dominant mothers and virtually absent fathers have a greatly increased chance of becoming "socially" gay. The same is true for boys growing up in exclusively male environments. Since they are not born that way, this is evidence of preventable psychological damage incurred by departure from traditional gender roles and/or absence of representative role models. Ergo, it makes sense to expect the same to happen with same-sex couples.

Quote
That's an argument not just against gay adoption, but against allowing any homosexual(s) to raise a child. 

Indeed it is, and a good one too. But, while the gov is in a position of custody (and therefore responsibility) in adoption, it has no such standing in the case of pregnant lesbians.

Quote
There's plenty of evidence that sexual orientation is not one of the qualities of parents that's imitated.  Exhibit 1: Mary Cheney.

Gay children may be born or grow up in heterosexual families. How is this relevant to the discussion? By your logic, should the gov let drug-addicts adopt because druggies may grow up in drug-free families? Essentially, you are saying "notA may produce B" refutes "A is conducive to B". That is an obvious logic error.



tyme

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Re: Arguments against homosexual adoption?
« Reply #58 on: February 14, 2007, 07:56:06 AM »
Quote
It is a known psychological fact that boys that grow up in a family of highly dominant mothers and virtually absent fathers have a greatly increased chance of becoming "socially" gay. The same is true for boys growing up in exclusively male environments. Since they are not born that way, this is evidence of preventable psychological damage incurred by departure from traditional gender roles and/or absence of representative role models.

I guess this hinges on the threshold for considering someone "socially gay," and whether attitudes like preferring art over baseball (I presume that's what "socially gay" means) are properly called "psychological damage."  I tracked down the Stacey and Biblarz article that seems to be at the center of the controversy, but it'll take me a while to digest it.

At first glance, it's unclear whether those decreased masculine behavioral traits are the result of the parents' sexual orientation, or instead the result of parents that are tolerant of non-normative social behavior.  They might even adopt different behaviors to defend against or isolate themselves from discrimination by other kids.  If that's the case, while it's unfortunate, it's still unreasonable to discriminate against gay adoptive parents because other parents can't teach their kids to treat kids of gay parents with respect.

Quote
Gay children may be born or grow up in heterosexual families. How is this relevant to the discussion? By your logic, should the gov let drug-addicts adopt because druggies may grow up in drug-free families? Essentially, you are saying "notA may produce B" refutes "A is conducive to B". That is an obvious logic error.

Percentages and extent.  Drug addict families are highly likely to have degenerate and/or criminal children.  Most drug use precludes and distracts from rational parenting, so addicts are unfit parents at best because they're negligent, at worst because they're abusive.  I have yet to find a reference to a study that finds children of gay parents are disproportionately gay, and I don't consider slight merging of gender behaviors to be a problem.  So what if they're a bit different?  They have rational parents who care about them, and who can help them with problems.
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roo_ster

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Re: Arguments against homosexual adoption?
« Reply #59 on: February 14, 2007, 10:06:58 AM »
Quote from: CAnnoneer
A kid that grows up in a same-sex union will be even more messed-up than one in dysfunctional heterosexual families.

Link?  I've read a fair amount that says there's no significant data that gay adoption screws up the kids.

Quote from: CAnnoneer
Like it or not, youngsters learn by example and spend most of their semi-sentient years doing enormous amount of ingraining by imitating adults.

That's an argument not just against gay adoption, but against allowing any homosexual(s) to raise a child.  There's no principled way to prevent gay parents from naturally having babies via 3rd parties, or from using artificial insemination or surrogates, so it seems patently absurd to me that the government should categorically deny gays from being able to adopt.

Again, where's the evidence that gay parents cause problems with childhood development?  Gays are still humans, and there are all sorts of different parental arrangements in the animal kingdom.  If a single parent of unknown sexual orientation can raise a child, why not gay parents?  There's plenty of evidence that sexual orientation is not one of the qualities of parents that's imitated.  Exhibit 1: Mary Cheney. (and OMG, she's pregnant!  Don't know precisely how, and don't care.  That's so cool... daughter of the VP having a baby to be raised presumably by herself and her lesbian partner!)

Quote from: Antibubba
Would 1 mother and 1 father be the ideal?  Sure.

I'm not so sure.  I like (in theory) Heinlein's concept of a line marriage, though in most places that sort of arrangement would be a social nightmare for everyone involved.  I wonder how much of society would end up in line-marriage type arrangements if infidelity wasn't (i.e. if society lost its perception that marriage is 1:1).  I think it's a superior family model.  More parents means there's more chance that some respectable father and mother figure(s) are in each child's life, and more adults in a family means less financial pressure, which is a major cause of domestic unrest and poor parenting.  There's more oversight by more adults; a badly-behaving parent can be kicked out with much less impact than a traditional divorce, particularly since the badly-behaved parent is unlikely to have been very involved in any of the children's lives.

I always thought of RAH's group marriage descriptions as comic relief, like his nudity kick in some novels.  He sure didn't practice group marriage in his own life (married serially to two different women, AFAIK).

Group "marriages" have been tried in this country and proven to be astounding failures, most imploding in a few short years.  They don't go well with Western Civ and economically developed countries.

----

As to why gay parents may have a detrimental effect on kiddos, look no further than how children develop.  One of the most marked behaviors of children is imitating those around them, especially their parents.  Seeing how the rates of mental disorders & communicable disease, and life expectancy are much worse for homo than they are for hetero folks; I think increasing the liklihood of such a behavior/lifestyle/whatever is detrimental to the child's development.

Like fistful said, children born to two lesbians are their kids & gooberment ought to keep thier hands off, just as it ought to keep its hands off any parents who engage in lawful behavior that may increase the odds of negative outcomes with their kids.  Adoption is an entirely different deal, however, with the gooberment having an obligation to do what is best for the kids.
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roo_ster

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