Student loans

[Ron]

The Democrats are probably going to use this issue as a new giveaway to lure voters.

While it may not have been the plan all along, this is just another case of leftists creating a problem by demanding everyone go to college and institutions must lend to them. Then once it all falls apart they declare an emergency, blame everyone else and claim to want to fix it.

It’s a similar thing that happened with mortgages.

I think Trump should pull the rug out from under them.

He should declare a one time education loan jubilee then disconnect education loans from government immediately afterword.

For those that aren’t familiar with the concept, it’s total debt forgiveness, poof! it’s gone!

I realize all the folks like me, who are careful with debt, always pay their bills and live within a budget will chafe at this ...

But, I submit the current alternative is worse.

The people are enslaved to debt, debt owned by the government.

The leftist higher educational system is raping the people financially and in far too many cases the education is useless, even as just a credential.

Another alternative would be to allow these loans to be discharged during bankruptcy.

I think the right should just go for the jugular, go big and just discharge the debt and say no more educational slavery underwritten by the state.

[dogmush]

While the idea is interesting, it's IMO completely unfeasible, and will never happen.  To get the Fed.gov out of student loan backing business would require congressional action.  Among other effects, it would mean that private companies giving student loans and buying them on the market would be incentivised to look at things like cost of the degree vs. income in the field and rate loans by the likelyhood of repayment.  That alone would stop this in congress.  There is zero chance that a bill making it harder to get stupid soft degrees will make it through.  Big ed would scream and lobby, poverty pimps would scream and lobby, and a good portion of the "intellectuals" that would have to vote would see themselves in the demographic that couldn't get student loans.

Since we can not reasonably expect the second part to happen, I can't really support the first part.

I didn't finish college, had to pay off my loans from 2 years of trying while working three jobs, pulled myself out of debt and have built a decent career by learning skills (increasingly specialized skills at that) and selling them to an employer.  True, my employer is currently the fed.gov, but I could make as much (more actually) selling those skills in the market.  The idea of having my money stolen to bribe a bunch of brats who didn't read the loans they signed, or do the most basic research on their chosen career makes me very, very angry.

[Jamisjockey]

The Democrats are probably going to use this issue as a new giveaway to lure voters....

The people are enslaved to debt, debt owned by the government....

The leftist higher educational system is raping the people financially and in far too many cases the education is useless, even as just a credential....

It's a feature, not a bug.

[Ben]

The idea of having my money stolen to bribe a bunch of brats who didn't read the loans they signed, or do the most basic research on their chosen career makes me very, very angry.

Word.

I worked in the oil patch and at the county dump to earn money to go to college as an older, returning student so I could pay my own way. The idea of paying for someone's PhD in gender studies, or forgiving the loan they got themselves into, makes me very, very angry.

[Ron]

Our money is being stolen regardless.

Herd behavior, lower IQ, lack of resources combined with a concentrated propaganda push by both the educational establishment and media created this crises.

Terminate the debts and terminate the educational establishments ability to fleece the unwary.

I get it guys. My family has always been debt averse and we all live below our means. I don’t have a personal financial stake in this idea nor does my family.

The banks, the schools and the government herded the people into this situation. Like jamis said, this was the whole point.

Undo the past wrongs and it will damage all the crooks who are guilty and set free 2-3 generations of Americans.

You did the right thing, you have and will reap all the benefits of your actions. Ending the wage slavery of the upcoming generations and giving them a second chance to do right is also the right thing.

I’m just throwing things against the wall here. I’m not fully committed yet.

[charby]

I don't think loans should be forgiven, unless they get into a program like working in an underserved area, public service, etc. I would also be fine with a tax savings for businesses to offer load forgiveness (with a cap) after so many years of employment.

I do think you should be able to refinance student loans and write them off in bankruptcy (same for medical debt)

[dogmush]

It's hard to consider a deal they voluntarily entered as "wage slavery "

[MillCreek]

I work with many physicians and dentists who are in the process, or have paid off their medical school loans by working for several years after graduation in the military or in medically-underserved areas.  After a certain number of years of public service, the Federal Government forgives the loans.

[Hawkmoon]

I’m not fully committed yet.

Not to worry. The men in white coats will be along shortly to pick you up.

[Ron]

Not to worry. The men in white coats will be along shortly to pick you up.

 

Got to go, someone’s at the door 
                             

[Ron]

It's hard to consider a deal they voluntarily entered as "wage slavery "

Think of them as being caught up in a mass delusion (everyone should go to college).

It’s a modern day Tulip-mania.

Who is left holding the bag and who got rich?

In any other realm it would be acknowledged as predatory behavior signing up unqualified people for huge unsecured loans.

It’s like a huge payday loan scam being perpetrated on the public at large.

Many were able to use the system, get an education and escape, stipulated.

But if this was a well designed system we wouldn’t have an education loan crises.

I’m less inclined to think it’s a conspiracy and more inclined it is a failing to accurately assess reality.

Failing upward via bureaucracy on a massive scale. The bureaucrats gave the delusional people what they demanded even though it was based on lies.

Lies like everyone should go to college or everyone is equal when given the same opportunity.

That folks running the banks and schools were getting rich running the scam was just the market giving the people what they wanted. Bright futures as Tulip entrepreneurs.

[Boomhauer]

Let me tell you what a lot of these mother *expletive deleted*ers did who are whining about their debt did.

Did they fall for the “everybody must go to college” mantra? Perhaps. But once they did “go to college” these morons made it worse for themselves a thousand fold in many cases

It starts by instead of picking a lower cost school they pick “the party school”, or the school with their favorite sports team that costs more money. Or the fancy private university that costs $$$$ per semester (we have one here that’s nothing special, but still costs $40k a semester...the pretty even matched public university in a town about 45 mins away costs 10-15k a semester)

Then when they get there they don’t take out the minimum loans needed for school and room/board. No they take out the max possible to get a “surplus” that’s meant for living expenses and use it for partying. Oh and they sign up for a full load, wait for that check to be disbursed, and drop half their course load so they can stretch out the party train as far as possible, for at least a few additional semesters or even a couple of years.

Do they at least pick a useful degree? Hell no most of the time it’s some damn near useless liberal arts bullshit that sounds nice but is in a very limited field, a field where you have to go to post graduate (but with no intentions of doing so), or just plain no call for it.

Oh and I forgot to mention, applying for scholarships instead of loans is “just too hard”, working a job to supplement the income is too much for “studying”, so living off of daddy’s money and wasting it is the way to go.

I will admit, I *expletive deleted*ed up and got a history degree with the intentions of going into law school, then I found out that the job market for lawyers was terrible (not sure about today). I didn’t take our crazy loans, I was at a reasonably priced state school, and I worked one or two jobs throughout school. I even had a career in the history field for about 7 years. I am on track to pay off my loans and they are not astronomical. But even if I was being crushed by 100k in student loan debt it would be my fault for being financially retarded. They require you to go through counseling basically amounting to “yes I understand what I am getting into and what it will cost and yes I have to pay it back” when you apply for the loans.

[Northwoods]

I certainly agree with severing the tie between student loans and the government.  And with making at least future student loans bankruptable.  Not so sure I'm ok with just cancelling all that debt.  I might be fine with dropping interest rates to something approaching zero as a compromise to limit the damage, though there should be some interest to get people to be serious about paying it off.

If we were going to cancel any debt, and I don't think we should, I'd say to limit that to those with a 10+ year history of making payments on time, again as damage limitation.  And yes, I realize the normal repayment term is 10 years.  Those few that would benefit would be of negligible overall remaining balances on a nation wide scale.

[Hawkmoon]

I certainly agree with severing the tie between student loans and the government.  And with making at least future student loans bankruptable.  Not so sure I'm ok with just cancelling all that debt.  I might be fine with dropping interest rates to something approaching zero as a compromise to limit the damage, though there should be some interest to get people to be serious about paying it off.

Making student loans bankruptable is the same as just cancelling them, but cancelling is more efficient. If you're going to make future student loans subject to bankruptcy, I think it would be only fair to make existing student loans subject to bankruptcy as well.

The problems began when Uncle Sugar took over the student loan business from the banks. Colleges saw the gravy train rolling and jumped on board, admitting students who should probably never have made it into a college, and jacking up the tuition and fees astronomically. Just end student loans ... period. Force the schhols and the applicants to face up to reality, and get things back to an even keel.

[Jamisjockey]

The problem with the entire thing is this is exactly what happens when .gov interferes in the markets and education.

.Gov wanted to see more people go to college.  So they began incentivizing schools to push kids towards college.  Then they began backing the student loans.  Colleges, seeing this opportunity to make money, jacked up tuition rates and created more and more garbage programs within the system.
The business world, seeing a glut of college graduates applying to jobs, began requiring higher education for jobs that didn't historically require them.
Interest rates dropped.
Colleges have been doubling down since that happened and making tuition more and more expensive.
Liberals in the education system and in big gov sank their teeth into it and began pushing agendas with those college degrees.
All because big gov wanted to socially engineer the workforce.

[charby]

Also in the late 1990s many states started to reduce financial support for their public higher education institutions. This caused the public universities and colleges a need to raise revenues elsewhere with higher tuition and fees, plus let just about anyone in.

[MillCreek]

All because big gov wanted to socially engineer the workforce.

Depending on which school of economics you follow, human capital improvement through education has been a generally well-regarded driver of economic improvement.

[Northwoods]

Depending on which school of economics you follow, human capital improvement through education has been a generally well-regarded driver of economic improvement.

That only works to a point, and then only if the additional education is better than what existed before.  I would posit that we have violated both conditions.  There are more people going to college than is a net benefit.  And, because high schools, in aggregate, suck, and a bachelor's degree has basically replaced the education that used to come from high school, we're just collectively spending vastly more money on an education that, at best, matches a non-college level from 60+ years ago.  And in many cases it's not even that good.

[Jamisjockey]

That only works to a point, and then only if the additional education is better than what existed before.  I would posit that we have violated both conditions.  There are more people going to college than is a net benefit.  And, because high schools, in aggregate, suck, and a bachelor's degree has basically replaced the education that used to come from high school, we're just collectively spending vastly more money on an education that, at best, matches a non-college level from 60+ years ago.  And in many cases it's not even that good.

All this and a bag of chips.

[brimic]

That only works to a point, and then only if the additional education is better than what existed before.  I would posit that we have violated both conditions.  There are more people going to college than is a net benefit.  And, because high schools, in aggregate, suck, and a bachelor's degree has basically replaced the education that used to come from high school, we're just collectively spending vastly more money on an education that, at best, matches a non-college level from 60+ years ago.  And in many cases it's not even that good.

+2

[HankB]

I work with many physicians and dentists who are in the process, or have paid off their medical school loans by working for several years after graduation in the military or in medically-underserved areas.  After a certain number of years of public service, the Federal Government forgives the loans.

Wasn't that the background premise in the TV series "Northern Exposure?" IIRC, in the show Alaska underwrote an MD's student loans, and ended up assigning him to some little backwoods town that needed a doctor. Much hilarity ensued.

On the other hand, if the borrower gets a degree in theater arts, womyn's studies, finger painting, or Medieval French poetry, even the government may have difficulty finding a position for that individual in his/her field.

[MechAg94]

The other part that bugs me is a portion of those students were busy partying on that borrowed money for 4 years and had no time to consider the future.

[brimic]

The other part that bugs me is a portion of those students were busy partying on that borrowed money for 4 years and had no time to consider the future.

Or even more nefarious: during the obama administration, kids were encouraged to take out loans and stay in school as long as possible with the hint that there would be a student loan amnesty down the road. obama was a 'community organizer' first and foremost, which is just a euphemism for someone who encourages and enables people to participate in wealth transfer.
There were a lot of people who barely stepped foot into a classroom who were running up a tab on their student loans on expensive apartments, cars, and lifestyles that none of them could afford without these loans.

[cordex]

Also in the late 1990s many states started to reduce financial support for their public higher education institutions. This caused the public universities and colleges a need to raise revenues elsewhere with higher tuition and fees, plus let just about anyone in.

Sortakindanotreally.

During the 90s state and local spending ramped up from $7,355 per student in 1992 to a high of $9,018 per student in 2000 (using inflation-adjusted 2016 dollars).  The low has been 2011 when it hit $6,320.   In 2016 it was back up to $7,642 per student.

All that said state funding variation for public schools had very little to do with actual tuition increases which have gone up significantly.   Nor would that impact the private schools whose prices went up way, way faster.  So ... no.


https://trends.collegeboard.org/college-pricing/figures-tables/total-and-student-state-and-local-funding-and-public-enrollment-over-time

Then there is this:

https://trends.collegeboard.org/college-pricing/figures-tables/tuition-fees-room-board-over-time

[Ron]

Plenty of “bad guys” to go around.

The lending institutions, educational institutions and government are the most culpable in my opinion.

Were there and are there moochers who work the system? Yes

The banks and schools should bear the burden of this fiasco as they played upon the weaknesses of the people.

The free *expletive deleted*it army is not known for its low time preference and good judgement.

We rely on the adults running institutions to keep these types of fiascos from happening