Author Topic: Replace judges with computers...  (Read 979 times)

T.O.M.

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Replace judges with computers...
« on: September 04, 2019, 07:54:41 PM »
Been at lawyer classes all day, continuing legal education requirements to keep my license.  One session was on artificial intelligence in the legal field.  Presenter was talking about the increased use of AI in all areas, and the growing use in the judicial system.  I was thinking about the recidivism prediction computer tools used in presentence investigations.  Nope, a growing use of AI to handle actual judicial functions.  A couple of computer companies are pushing systems that allow an input of facts, a legal issue, and the system will spit out a decision supported by statutory and case law authority.  Other systems that don't give recidivism predictions, but actually give full sentencing recommendations.  She goes on to say that some studies have been done that show judges "get things right" about 68% of the time, but computers hit closer to 90%.  She also said that computers don't carry gender and race biases, and aren't swayed by emotions.  Selling points are lower cost than human jurists, more efficient work output, reduced unwarranted incarceration, and reduced appellate review, as the computers are more better than people.  Her prediction?  In the next 15 years, plus or minus, court staff will change to fewer judges who handle things computers can't do yet, a lot of data input staff, and some kiosks in courthouses where people can "plead guilty" to the machine for low level offenses, see a clerk and probation officer, and have the whole thing done in half an hour instead of weeks/months to get through the system.  So, what does the hive mind think?  Are robes and gavels going to be replaced by touch screens and printers?
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Boomhauer

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Re: Replace judges with computers...
« Reply #1 on: September 04, 2019, 08:12:02 PM »
Google’s dicks just got real hard upon reading that
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T.O.M.

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Re: Replace judges with computers...
« Reply #2 on: September 04, 2019, 08:14:50 PM »
Google’s dicks just got real hard upon reading that

Google is one of the tech giants pushing this, along with Amazon from the tech side, and both Westlaw, and Lexis/Nexis from the law side.
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MillCreek

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Re: Replace judges with computers...
« Reply #3 on: September 04, 2019, 08:35:16 PM »
I have read a fair amount of science fiction on this theory.  I would have less concerns about it on the civil side rather than the criminal side.
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TommyGunn

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Re: Replace judges with computers...
« Reply #4 on: September 04, 2019, 08:38:57 PM »
Watch the 1st season STAR TREK episode called "Court Martial."   

An expose of the old computer bromide; "garbage in, garbage out."
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Re: Replace judges with computers...
« Reply #5 on: September 04, 2019, 08:50:04 PM »
A plan is just a list of things that doesn't happen.
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Regolith

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Re: Replace judges with computers...
« Reply #6 on: September 04, 2019, 09:21:47 PM »
I think in the long run, it might be a good idea, but within the next 50 years? No.

The way AI is being built right now, with machine learning, means we generally have no idea exactly how the computer is coming to its conclusion. We can give it guiding algorithms and feed it a bunch of data, but the meat and potatoes of how the AI does its thing is often opaque even to the programmer. That is not something I trust with something as important as Due Process.

Added to that is the fact that despite the claims of the lady you talked to, the algorithm CAN be tainted with the bias of the programmer, depending on how they tell the AI to weigh facts, and by the chosen data set. Garbage In, Garbage Out is still the rule.
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Re: Replace judges with computers...
« Reply #7 on: September 04, 2019, 09:56:57 PM »
I wouldn't mind seeing computers replace Judge Judy and all the clones of her "reality" courtroom TV but, in a real courtroom? Thanks, but no thanks. Take it to a logical extension -- if computers can "get it right" more often than judges, think how much better it would be to replace juries with computers.

I want to see the computer that could have dealt with "Abdul of the thousand names" (as he was known around town) the day he showed up in housing court and argued that he wasn't he, so although he was there he wasn't present, so the case against him couldn't proceed.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Replace judges with computers...
« Reply #8 on: September 04, 2019, 10:04:09 PM »
I, for one, welcome our black-robed, robotic overlords.
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T.O.M.

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Re: Replace judges with computers...
« Reply #9 on: September 04, 2019, 10:14:27 PM »

Added to that is the fact that despite the claims of the lady you talked to, the algorithm CAN be tainted with the bias of the programmer, depending on how they tell the AI to weigh facts, and by the chosen data set. Garbage In, Garbage Out is still the rule.

To be fair to the tech teach, she did say that the algorithm could be biased, but said the bias could come from the data that was input.  So if you input legal precedents that were racist/sexist/whatever, it could result in the system popping out biased decisions because of that data.

My concern about hearing how you input facts to the system to get a decision...who decides what the facts are?  Hod knows how many times around here we have argued the facts of a shooting case, and never reached a consensus on what "the facts" really are.
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Boomhauer

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Re: Replace judges with computers...
« Reply #10 on: September 04, 2019, 10:37:31 PM »
If a company that has done all they could to interfere in elections wants this then sure as hell I do not. This is some scary stuff.
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OTOH, there wouldn't be a tweeker left in Georgia...

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230RN

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Re: Replace judges with computers...
« Reply #11 on: September 05, 2019, 01:11:34 AM »
"She goes on to say that some studies have been done that show judges 'get things right' about 68% of the time, but computers hit closer to 90%."

Stoopit question:  "Who is doing the judging that computers get it right 90% of the time.... judges who only "get it right" 68% of the time?"

.... And who made the judgement that judges only get it right 68% of the time?

'Tis a puzzlement.

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charby

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Re: Replace judges with computers...
« Reply #12 on: September 05, 2019, 01:20:43 AM »
Been at lawyer classes all day, continuing legal education requirements to keep my license.  One session was on artificial intelligence in the legal field.  Presenter was talking about the increased use of AI in all areas, and the growing use in the judicial system.  I was thinking about the recidivism prediction computer tools used in presentence investigations.  Nope, a growing use of AI to handle actual judicial functions.  A couple of computer companies are pushing systems that allow an input of facts, a legal issue, and the system will spit out a decision supported by statutory and case law authority.  Other systems that don't give recidivism predictions, but actually give full sentencing recommendations.  She goes on to say that some studies have been done that show judges "get things right" about 68% of the time, but computers hit closer to 90%.  She also said that computers don't carry gender and race biases, and aren't swayed by emotions.  Selling points are lower cost than human jurists, more efficient work output, reduced unwarranted incarceration, and reduced appellate review, as the computers are more better than people.  Her prediction?  In the next 15 years, plus or minus, court staff will change to fewer judges who handle things computers can't do yet, a lot of data input staff, and some kiosks in courthouses where people can "plead guilty" to the machine for low level offenses, see a clerk and probation officer, and have the whole thing done in half an hour instead of weeks/months to get through the system.  So, what does the hive mind think?  Are robes and gavels going to be replaced by touch screens and printers?

Did a computer just write that?
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T.O.M.

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Re: Replace judges with computers...
« Reply #13 on: September 05, 2019, 06:38:54 AM »
Did a computer just write that?

I've been called worse!   :rofl:
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griz

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Re: Replace judges with computers...
« Reply #14 on: September 05, 2019, 07:39:21 AM »
So the data entry tech gets to decide what "facts" are relevant?  Garbage in, garbage out.
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cordex

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Re: Replace judges with computers...
« Reply #15 on: September 05, 2019, 07:58:30 AM »
So the data entry tech gets to decide what "facts" are relevant?  Garbage in, garbage out.
The data entry tech gets it wrong 43.3% of the time, but AI selects relevant facts 98.315% of the time, so you can only rely on AI to choose which facts the AI should use to make a determination.

MechAg94

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Re: Replace judges with computers...
« Reply #16 on: September 05, 2019, 08:45:55 AM »
The data entry tech gets it wrong 43.3% of the time, but AI selects relevant facts 98.315% of the time, so you can only rely on AI to choose which facts the AI should use to make a determination.
Good to know the AI will only select the facts the tech gets wrong.
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makattak

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Re: Replace judges with computers...
« Reply #17 on: September 05, 2019, 08:50:36 AM »
Been at lawyer classes all day, continuing legal education requirements to keep my license.  One session was on artificial intelligence in the legal field.  Presenter was talking about the increased use of AI in all areas, and the growing use in the judicial system.  I was thinking about the recidivism prediction computer tools used in presentence investigations.  Nope, a growing use of AI to handle actual judicial functions.  A couple of computer companies are pushing systems that allow an input of facts, a legal issue, and the system will spit out a decision supported by statutory and case law authority.  Other systems that don't give recidivism predictions, but actually give full sentencing recommendations.  She goes on to say that some studies have been done that show judges "get things right" about 68% of the time, but computers hit closer to 90%.  She also said that computers don't carry gender and race biases, and aren't swayed by emotions.  Selling points are lower cost than human jurists, more efficient work output, reduced unwarranted incarceration, and reduced appellate review, as the computers are more better than people.  Her prediction?  In the next 15 years, plus or minus, court staff will change to fewer judges who handle things computers can't do yet, a lot of data input staff, and some kiosks in courthouses where people can "plead guilty" to the machine for low level offenses, see a clerk and probation officer, and have the whole thing done in half an hour instead of weeks/months to get through the system.  So, what does the hive mind think?  Are robes and gavels going to be replaced by touch screens and printers?

And that, right there, is why the left would never go for it, unless they were able to program in a suitable amount of gender and race bias. (As google is working on.)
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