Another "WTF Texas?" shooting by the cops

[RoadKingLarry]

The story is a little light on the details as usual but  so far sounds pretty damning for the Fort Worth cops

https://www.foxnews.com/us/fort-worth-texas-police-officer-woman-killed-welfare-check

Synopsis: Cops called for a "welfare check". Cops arrive on scene, see someone inside the residence, shoot and kill said someone., At least they cops all got to go home at the end of their shift.

[Pb]

 

[Ben]

Looks like we'll need to wait for more info. Lots of speculation right now. There's bodycam footage that has been released, but they're not releasing the footage from in the house, which would be the critical video. A neighbor supposedly claimed they didn't identify themselves before they entered.

To me, this stuff wraps right back around to red flag laws. Too many of these "welfare checks" seem to turn into SRT responses instead of actual welfare checks. I'm guessing some combo of how people report it to the cops, varying response procedures by individual agencies, and  I suppose, society going overboard on "everything is a violent threat, including the hat you wear" so the cops just get a "potentially dangerous person" call and respond with that in the back of their mind.

[Hawkmoon]

I'm going to have to advise whatever friends and relatives I have that under no circumstances are they to call the police to request a "welfare" check if I don't answer my phone.

In a statement, the department said it received a call at 2:25 a.m. reporting an open front door at a residence. Responding officers searched the perimeter of the house and saw a person standing inside near the window, according to police.

"Perceiving a threat, the officer drew his duty weapon and fired one shot, striking the person inside the residence," the department stated. In body camera video released by police, two officers search the home from the outside with flashlights before one shouts, "Put your hands up, show me your hands." One shot is then fired through a window.

If I'm in my home at 02:30 a.m., it's extremely unlikely that I would be aware of someone walking around the outside of my house. How is a person who thinks they are alone inside the house supposed to know that a voice from somewhere outside is talking to them when saying "Show me your hands"? This sort of thing has happened too often of late. I don't see it as a white cops vs black people issue, I see it as a complete failure of police training. I have commented multiple times in the past about what I perceive to be the over-reliance on "command voice." Too many cops today come out of training with an Attitude (with a capital 'A') that their word is law, that compliance with their directives -- no matter how stupid, inappropriate, or contradictory -- must be instant and complete or the punishment is death by firing squad.

[griz]

I agree with Hawkmoon.  It's a problem when the officers think of a welfare check as a compliance with authority check.  Common sense will tell you that somebody awakened in the middle of the night by unknown noises may be cautious enough to arm themselves.  I didn't see any link to the body cam video but it sure seems trigger happy by the description.

[MechAg94]

The other question that is too late for this woman is why didn't the neighbor go over and ring the doorbell?  When you call the cops, you are calling to ask people to come with guns.  Sometimes they don't do what you expect them to. 

[MechAg94]

Why did the police send their SWAT team?  Was there some miscommunication that got this classified as some sort of crime in progress? 

[MechAg94]

http://www.armedpolitesociety.com/index.php?topic=56381.0

http://www.armedpolitesociety.com/index.php?topic=56428.0

http://www.armedpolitesociety.com/index.php?topic=58699.0

A few other similar discussions.  Not all the same, but few see the police punished at all.

[MechAg94]

Okay, I watched the body cam footage.  There was maybe 1 second between the officer starting to yell commands and the shot.  There was not time for the woman to respond at all.  Considering this was not supposed to be any sort of active situation and there was no report of an actual crime, that reaction is way beyond reasonable.  I can't see how this would be a good shoot. 

Not to mention, why would the officers be looking around the back yard when they haven't even knocked on the door yet? 

[MechAg94]

tactically, I was thinking a homeowner should be careful not to silhouette yourself in your own windows.  But thinking about my house, I have a few big windows in a group in the living room looking out at the back yard.  Using powerful flashlights, someone might see me even if I am in the back of the room.  Something to think about when it comes to tactics of responding to noise/people outside. 

[MechAg94]

https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/video-fort-worth-woman-shot-and-killed-by-police-officer-in-her-home-after-welfare-call/

Lots of comments almost none of them kind to police.

[T.O.M.]

You guys know me to be the resident law enforcement supporter/police sympathizer.  Too many years carrying a prosecutor's badge.  So i looked into the shooting looking for a defense of the officer...

I can't fine one here.

You have an officer responding to an open door.  Middle of the night.  No knowledge if the lawful occupant is present or not.  Go around to the backyard.  Shine lights in the window and, judging from the video, they don't take a moment to identify the person.  Gun up and shot.

Now, part of me wonders about a growing attitude of people, law enforcement included, that anyone with a firearm is a bad guy.  Despite an increase of CCW permits and what I perceive to be increasingly common firearm ownership, there's this belief that gun=bad guy.  So, cop goes to house, sees person inside with a gun (there's a picture of a handgun being shown in connection with the story), so BANG!  As a lawful gun owner, what do I do to make myself less of a target (pun intended) in a situation where I'm in mu home, with a firearm.  Well, I clean my guns in my workbench, which is in my attached garage with no windows.  Dry fire or draw practice only with the blinds closed, or back in my garage.  Any other thoughts?

[zxcvbob]

You guys know me to be the resident law enforcement supporter/police sympathizer.  Too many years carrying a prosecutor's badge.  So i looked into the shooting looking for a defense of the officer...

I can't fine one here.

You have an officer responding to an open door.  Middle of the night.  No knowledge if the lawful occupant is present or not.  Go around to the backyard.  Shine lights in the window and, judging from the video, they don't take a moment to identify the person.  Gun up and shot.

Now, part of me wonders about a growing attitude of people, law enforcement included, that anyone with a firearm is a bad guy.  Despite an increase of CCW permits and what I perceive to be increasingly common firearm ownership, there's this belief that gun=bad guy.  So, cop goes to house, sees person inside with a gun (there's a picture of a handgun being shown in connection with the story), so BANG!  As a lawful gun owner, what do I do to make myself less of a target (pun intended) in a situation where I'm in mu home, with a firearm.  Well, I clean my guns in my workbench, which is in my attached garage with no windows.  Dry fire or draw practice only with the blinds closed, or back in my garage.  Any other thoughts?

All they've shown was that a gun was in found the house.  If she had actually been holding a gun, that's what all the stories would lead with.

I think he pulled his gun (unnecessarily) with his finger on the trigger and fired accidentally.  Not sure what the maximum sentence in Texas is for manslaughter, but I think that fits (based on not a lot of facts at this point.)  Murder will be way too hard to prove.  Negligent homicide is a maximum of 2 years, and that's not enough.

A lot of us are starting to believe cop=bad guy.

[Hawkmoon]

I think he pulled his gun (unnecessarily) with his finger on the trigger and fired accidentally.  Not sure what the maximum sentence in Texas is for manslaughter, but I think that fits (based on not a lot of facts at this point.)  Murder will be way too hard to prove.  Negligent homicide is a maximum of 2 years, and that's not enough.

Amber Guyger was just convicted of murder and, for all her stupidity, her case was a lot less murder than this one.

[zxcvbob]

Amber Guyger was just convicted of murder and, for all her stupidity, her case was a lot less murder than this one.

Yes it was.  But the different levels of homicide have definitions, and if the cop claims he didn't mean to shoot I don't think they can get a murder conviction.  Amber G. said she intentionally killed the guy; that makes it either murder or justifiable homicide.

I looked up the maximum sentence for manslaughter; it's 20 years and/or a $10,000 fine.

Chris or Ned can probably answer this; what does it take to strip an officer of qualified immunity?  That's what needs to happen in a lot of these cases.  Perhaps just a negligent homicide conviction is enough for that; then after he gets out of jail in 6 months, he can lose his house and entire life savings to the victim's family.

[MechAg94]

https://youtu.be/839XoPYAHP0
Donut Operator didn't have any more to add than what we have seen.  He also mentioned it looked like it could be a negligent discharge. 

He played some press conference stuff around why the police department released the picture of the gun if they were not willing to say the officer was being threatened with it.  I guess they might say more tomorrow. 

I was also curious why the officers approached this situation the way they did.  It appears they approached this as if a crime was in progress or they were searching for a criminal.  Also why was this group sent to the home instead of a regular patrol unit since I heard they were in tacticals instead of a normal uniform.  Made me wonder if they got bad information from dispatch.  It doesn't excuse anything, just might explain a little. 

[Hawkmoon]

Article with video.

https://abcnews.go.com/US/officer-bodycam-shooting-killing-woman-home/story?id=66237208

NOT a good shoot.

[cordex]

Even if the woman had the gun in her hand and was pointing it out the window at the cop she wasn’t doing anything wrong.  As far as I’m seeing so far the cops didn’t identify either themselves or their target.

As far as the generalized “cops=bad guys” ignorance ... sure, and you have to answer for everything bad anyone you can be linked to does.

[230RN]

I agree with Chris, totally apart from this particular case.

Now, part of me wonders about a growing attitude of people, law enforcement included, that anyone with a firearm is a bad guy.  Despite an increase of CCW permits and what I perceive to be increasingly common firearm ownership, there's this belief that gun=bad guy.  So, cop goes to house, sees person inside with a gun (there's a picture of a handgun being shown in connection with the story), so BANG!

Propaganda works.

I lived in  NY the first two decades of my life, and I can atttest:  If you have a gun, you are either a cop or a criminal to almost everybody.
 
Period.

[MechAg94]

You guys know me to be the resident law enforcement supporter/police sympathizer.  Too many years carrying a prosecutor's badge.  So i looked into the shooting looking for a defense of the officer...

I can't fine one here.

You have an officer responding to an open door.  Middle of the night.  No knowledge if the lawful occupant is present or not.  Go around to the backyard.  Shine lights in the window and, judging from the video, they don't take a moment to identify the person.  Gun up and shot.

Now, part of me wonders about a growing attitude of people, law enforcement included, that anyone with a firearm is a bad guy.  Despite an increase of CCW permits and what I perceive to be increasingly common firearm ownership, there's this belief that gun=bad guy.  So, cop goes to house, sees person inside with a gun (there's a picture of a handgun being shown in connection with the story), so BANG!  As a lawful gun owner, what do I do to make myself less of a target (pun intended) in a situation where I'm in mu home, with a firearm.  Well, I clean my guns in my workbench, which is in my attached garage with no windows.  Dry fire or draw practice only with the blinds closed, or back in my garage.  Any other thoughts?

On the last part, the only windows I leave the blinds/curtains open are also where I have an outdoor light illuminating the back yard.  That ought to at least allow me to see them first if I am paying attention.  Maybe.  Definitely something that I will be thinking about. 

[Ben]

On the last part, the only windows I leave the blinds/curtains open are also where I have an outdoor light illuminating the back yard.  That ought to at least allow me to see them first if I am paying attention.  Maybe.  Definitely something that I will be thinking about. 

I need to assess this myself. The place here has a ton of big windows. On one side of the house (what you might consider the front),  I close the blinds in late afternoon to keep the sun from shining directly in and then leave them shut till morning. The other side is pretty a much a "wall" of windows into the backyard, which then goes into a neighbors pasture. Because it's a fairly private setting and there are no "sun blinding" issues, I leave the blinds up on that side of the house 24/7. It's probably not the tactically aware thing to do. Though I had to install blinds when I moved in. Other than the bedrooms, the last owners had no blinds or curtains anywhere. I saw similar quite a bit when I was still looking at places. I guess people figure if they're out in the boonies, there's no need for window coverings.

I've been thinking about setting up a couple of solar motion lights in back, but then I have to worry about various critters setting them off and creating false alarms. The one neighbor's free range peacocks already drive me crazy with tripping a driveway sensor I have set up a couple hundred yards from the house.

[Fly320s]

Re: driveway sensors.  If you want it to activate just for cars, this thing has worked well for me for 3 years now.  https://www.dakotaalert.com/store/2500-series-products/dcpa-2500-driveway-alarm-transmitter/

[Brad Johnson]

Bad shoot all around. Responding to a welfare check call with guns drawn? Shooting through a window with little/no reasonably warning when no apparent threat to officers existed?

I'm with Chris... police work is tough so I try to be as understanding as possible, but there's no understanding this.

Brad

[MechAg94]

Bad shoot all around. Responding to a welfare check call with guns drawn? Shooting through a window with little/no reasonably warning when no apparent threat to officers existed?

I'm with Chris... police work is tough so I try to be as understanding as possible, but there's no understanding this.

Brad

I have heard more than one person mention they think it was a negligent discharge.  I am inclined to agree.  Still a bad shoot, but maybe it would be manslaughter instead of murder. 

[dogmush]

I have heard more than one person mention they think it was a negligent discharge.  I am inclined to agree.  Still a bad shoot, but maybe it would be manslaughter instead of murder. 

Except the Agency's release say that the Officer fired "when he perceived a threat".  If he's on record as saying that, then he meant to pull the trigger.  One doesn't point a firearm at a threat and hope for an ND.