Author Topic: Help me get a computer; I'm looking at you Gewehr98!  (Read 5462 times)

Balog

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Help me get a computer; I'm looking at you Gewehr98!
« on: March 26, 2007, 04:02:38 PM »
Ok, so since I got out of the Marines and moved to WA I'm computer-less. It's starting be fairly annoying to make the trek to the local public library to check the old email (and APS, of course Smiley ). I'm only in touch with a number of good friends from the Corps and some family members through email; I also need the 'Net for my job. In short, I need a computer pronto.

So what's the problem?

Between the moving costs ($1K for the moving truck, $500 in gas, nearly $3k in security deposit and misc costs for moving into the new place etc etc) and the month or so I was out of work we're pretty broke. Much as I want/need a computer, there is a decent amount of other stuff that's more important that we need to take care of first, not the least of which is replenishing our savings. So I need a decent computer for really cheap (<$300 is what I'm thinking) if I'm to have any hope of getting it at any point in the near future.

So where does Gewehr98 come in?

I seem to recall him mentioning picking up a nice rig for pennies on the dollar because it had been linked into a matrix of similar rigs to render LoTR. I also recall him posting a website or two to check for that sort of thing. However, I can't seem to find that thread, and even if I could this discussion really seemed to merit it's own thread.

I'm not the most tech savvy guy in the world, so I guess I'm just in general asking for help finding a cheap but good computer. Would a used rig like Gewehr's be the best route, and if not what are better alternatives? Can anyone point out a good place to pick up a discount setup, and maybe give some advice to a poor and confused ex-grunt?
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Vodka7

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Re: Help me get a computer; I'm looking at you Gewehr98!
« Reply #1 on: March 26, 2007, 04:19:06 PM »
I think this is the post you're talking about:

http://www.armedpolitesociety.com/index.php?topic=6235.msg97658#msg97658

When it comes to getting a functional, used PC cheap, your best bets are school/government/business auctions.  They tend to upgrade entire departments at once instead of machine-by-machine, so if you can wait for an auction/firesale, you can get a really good deal.  A lot of the time though they'll auction the machines by the pallet, so you'll need some up-front cash and the patience to flip the extras on eBay.

Another good option is Dell's refurb center, but most of the machines I remember seeing there were closer to the $500 mark.

At $300, your best bets are going to be eBay and Craigslist.  Or, if you've got some friends with extra parts laying around you can build an excellent PC cheaply yourself.  An AMD single-core setup with a cheap case and onboard everything can be put together for under $300, but that figure assumes you already have a monitor/speakers/keyboard/mouse.  (Note--if you watch Craiglist or your local classifieds, you can still find free CRT monitors from people who upgrade and don't know how to dispose of the old one.)

Gewehr98

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Re: Help me get a computer; I'm looking at you Gewehr98!
« Reply #2 on: March 26, 2007, 05:47:13 PM »
Did you save the links that Mtnbkr and I traded in that thread?

Vodka7 hit the nail on the head.  Keep your eyes open for government surplus sales, but keep a wary eye open.  It's been my experience that the government, particularly the Federal government, hangs onto their equipment a good bit longer than private industry.  That means by the time you get your hands on their
leftovers, you may not want them.   undecided

I really don't trust www.craigslist.com for used computers, only because I've been spoiled on professional-grade machines with warranties from resellers. I feel craigslist private sales are a crapshoot at best.

What I've been doing since about 2001 or so is watching for corporate lease turn-ins, namely, IBM, Dell, HP/Compaq, and sometimes Silicon Graphics.  The manufacturers really don't want these older machines that come back at the end of their lease, but having leased a brand-new machine to the customers, they have to do something with them. They're not that old, either, maybe one generation back. That's where the resellers come into play.  The machines I grab tend to have a minimal refurbish done, with either no operating system, or a clean install of something like Windows 2000 Pro or Windows XP Pro. I paid $270.00 each for several of the IBM Intellistation M-Pro 6850 dual P4 Xeon workstations, but they dried up pretty darned quickly.  I wish I had bought more of them, but the folks who bought the spares from me are quite pleased. That's ok, there will always be more deals as long as the corporate lease business is alive and well.

If you forgot, here's a couple sites:

http://www.pcsurplusonline.com

http://www.geeks.com/

http://www.nwpcmall.com/

Then on e-Bay, there are factory-authorized resellers:

http://stores.ebay.com/LapkoSoft

As for being able to run right out of the box, you're not going to get everything when it comes to these cheaper corporate machines. They'll be good solid runners with heavy-duty hardware and maybe some new OEM plastic panels, but that's about it. They'll be heavy as heck, with IT tech-friendly chassis and access panels. Like I said, they may or may not have an operating system installed, and even if the OS is there, no other software will be included.  That's up to you to install, and most are sold sans monitor.  That never intimidated me, but I usually have spare peripherals laying around, or as posted above, a nice sharp CRT monitor can be found very cheaply just by hopping onto www.craigslist.com (Since folks are always trading up into the LCD monitors these days)

I hope that helps a little bit.  I know how it goes finding yourself on the terminal end of a PCS move to civilian life, trying to put things back to some semblance of normalcy.  Let me know if there's any way I can help.
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Balog

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Re: Help me get a computer; I'm looking at you Gewehr98!
« Reply #3 on: March 27, 2007, 01:33:12 PM »
Those are exactly what I was looking for. I appreciate the advice. I do still have a couple concerns tho.

When I'm looking at these systems, what should I be looking out for? As I said before I'm pretty newbish about this stuff, and I don't want to spend for a system and then find that it's got some obscure Latvian cpu that's incompatible with keyboards that aren't Cyrillic or something. Wink

If it doesn't have an OS installed, my understanding is that I would have three fairly unpalatable options: buy the couple hundred $ for a shiny new version of Win, use a bootleg copy, or try to figure out the Linuxy kinda OS's you can get for free. Is this a correct assessment of the situation?
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Iain

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Re: Help me get a computer; I'm looking at you Gewehr98!
« Reply #4 on: March 27, 2007, 02:02:53 PM »
Got much computer experience? I didn't have any real experience (and my recent hard drive efforts indicate that I still don't have much) when I first started messing with Ubuntu. It can be done, but having other computers in the house to look stuff up on the internet was useful.

If you're going to go with fairly standard hardware and a non-wireless connection I reckon you'd probably be most of the way there right after install. Let us know if you pursue the linux route, there's a fair amount of combined experience on this board.
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Balog

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Re: Help me get a computer; I'm looking at you Gewehr98!
« Reply #5 on: March 27, 2007, 02:06:30 PM »
My only experience is as a user. I know what I've been able to figure out on my own, which isn't much. When it comes to hardware I'm fairly useless.
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If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

Gewehr98

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Re: Help me get a computer; I'm looking at you Gewehr98!
« Reply #6 on: March 27, 2007, 02:39:20 PM »
Balog, the processors are going to be either Intel or AMD, period.  Neither are obscure or unsupported by the industry.

However, depending on what you're looking for in a computer, you have the option of buying a computer from those resellers that has one, two, or even four processors in the case.  The number of processors dictates which Microsoft operating system you can install, although the different iterations of Linux out there shouldn't really care about the number of CPUs in the case.

I run dual-CPU workstations here at my home, only because I'm an IT consultant on the side, and have a stepson with a graphic design degree.  He runs Adobe Creative Suite 2, as well as Quark Express.  He shares his student discount with me, and I also run some of the CPU-intensive apps like Adobe, Quark, etc.  I'm also getting ready to buy a local publication, so I want the extra bandwidth afforded by a dual-CPU workstation as I do graphic editing, image uploading to the website, watermarking, and so forth.  Hence my buying the dual-Xeon IBM Intellistations that were previously leased by the folks who did LotR.  I really enjoy the extra headroom afforded by multiple processors in the same computer, they don't bog down under multitasking anywhere near as quickly as single-CPU machines.

For your stated applications, you should be able to get by nicely on a single-CPU system, the faster processor and bus you can afford the better.  As for operating systems, Windows XP is dropping in price now that Vista is out on store shelves.  I see Windows XP Home edition on sale at Amazon.com for $90.00, and I'll wager you can find it cheaper elsewhere. Likewise, Microsoft Office 2003 is heavily discounted, now that Office 2007 is out there.   

If you're a gambling man, look on e-Bay and Craigslist, you'll probably find new-in-box distributions of Windows and Office for even cheaper.  Just make sure they have the right activation keys, and demand return privilege if they don't.   
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Silver Bullet

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Re: Help me get a computer; I'm looking at you Gewehr98!
« Reply #7 on: March 27, 2007, 06:52:50 PM »
If youre willing to consider a Mac, you can do what I did when I bought Macs for relatives.  I went on eBay and bought used 1999-vintage G3 iMacs for about $150, including shipping.  I installed OS X 10.3 (Panther; not the latest Tiger, although that should work too; I already had CDs for Panther).  These come with built-in monitors (not big, but sharp), and most sellers include the keyboard and mouse.  Chances are youll want to replace the mouse with a 2-button/wheel mouse, just make sure its USB.

My G3 iMac search criteria included the following:

1) 400MHz or faster.  The slower iMacs dont include FireWire, which is much faster than the USB 1.0 these older Macs have.  FireWire is good if you buy an external hard drive, external DVD drive, or if you want to connect to another Mac with FireWire in Target mode.  The last two iMacs I bought were 600MHz, simply because they were faster (I had previously bought 350MHz and 400MHz; they worked fine but I sold them) and because they were flying under the radar:  they werent being bid up to their value relative to the other iMacs.  And you really want to avoid the old tray loaders (< 350MHz).  Just too old. 

2) CD-RW is a Good Thing to do simple backups; otherwise, you just have CD-R.

3) 1GB of RAM minimum.  The ones with less RAM (256MB, typically) are cheaper, but not enough to make up the cost of buying new RAM.  If youre set on 1GB, then its cheaper to buy the iMacs that already have that much memory.  You can get by with 512MB, but I wanted 1GB.

4) I only bid on Macs that were being sold by someone with a feedback rating of 97% or better, and with at least 100 sales.  I wanted some confidence that I wasnt dealing with a rip-off artist.

5) I read the descriptions carefully to ensure that all of the hardware features (Ethernet, Firewire, CD drive) worked.  There was no need to buy a Mac with a damaged screen when there were so many others to choose from.

I own an iMac G5 at 1.6GHz.  When I was setting up the 600MHz (or even 400MHz) models, I had no problems with speed or sluggishness when doing things like word processing, email, and general internet access.   I suppose they must have been slower for some tasks, but not that I noticed; I think the bottlenecks are elsewhere (connection speed).  The thing about OS X is that the OS version has more of an affect on the speed of routine operations than the processor speed does.   10.0 was a dog, 10.1 was better, 10.2 (Jaguar) was much faster.  With 10.1, magazines used to recommend using at least a G4 Mac because the G3s were too slow.  When 10.2 came out, a G4 was no longer necessary; 10.2 was that much faster.  And 10.3 (Panther) is faster yet.  I dont know how fast 10.4 (Tiger) is. 

But, for getting your feet wet, its amazing how good those old G3 iMacs are at an amazingly low price.

I recommend this book for getting up to speed with OS X:

http://www.amazon.com/Mac-OS-Missing-Manual-Panther/dp/0596006152/ref=sr_1_1/102-1601696-5016115?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1173207268&sr=1-1

Note that you want to get the version of OS X Missing Manual that matches the version of OS X you are using.  My link shows Panther, but if you use Jaguar or Tiger, youll probably be better off with those versions of the Missing Manual.  David Pogue is an excellent Mac author.

I expect that starting with maybe OS X version 10.6 or 10.7 that the G3/G4/G5 iMacs will no longer be supported.  But, for $150, you cant go too wrong.  You can always make it a dedicated internet terminal, and get a newer Mac for other things.  Or, you can sell it.  Local buyers arent as astute as eBay buyers, and you can put an ad in your local paper and possibly get more for it than you paid on eBay.

Vodka7

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Re: Help me get a computer; I'm looking at you Gewehr98!
« Reply #8 on: March 27, 2007, 08:34:49 PM »
4) I only bid on Macs that were being sold by someone with a feedback rating of 97% or better, and with at least 100 sales.  I wanted some confidence that I wasn’t dealing with a rip-off artist.

Just one note on this--there is a *huge* black market for hacked eBay accounts, and older accounts with lots of feedback can fetch quite a lot of money, especially if they come with the e-mail address as well.  Check through the auction history and make sure what you're buying is in line with what they've sold in the past--someone who has 1,000 positive feedbacks for beanie babies or magic cards and is now unloading five laptops at bargain basement prices is not someone you want to trust.  And like always when bidding online, use common sense and stay away from people who ask you to do things like send Western Union.

Gewehr98

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Re: Help me get a computer; I'm looking at you Gewehr98!
« Reply #9 on: March 28, 2007, 07:06:18 PM »
As I said before, I trust computer purchases on e-Bay about as far as I can throw them, and appreciate the warranty the IBM and Dell resellers will give with their refurbished corporate lease machines. They typically stand more to lose if a customer gets a lemon and doesn't receive the support they're promised.
 
BTW, Balog, check your PM. 
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Waitone

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Re: Help me get a computer; I'm looking at you Gewehr98!
« Reply #10 on: April 01, 2007, 07:05:21 PM »
www.tigerdirect.com has off-lease, refurbished machines.  I just bought one for my sis.  IBM NET something or other
--Pentium IV 2.0 GHZ
--40 GIG HD
--256 MB RAM
mouse
keyboard
no monitor
Total Price $179 + $26 shipping
Includes a 1 year warranty.
The machine had exactly one small scratch and one little ding.
No operating system?  You can buy from TigerDirect XP OEM for $89.  I just reinstalled an existing OS.
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Gewehr98

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Re: Help me get a computer; I'm looking at you Gewehr98!
« Reply #11 on: April 02, 2007, 11:57:38 AM »
Yeah, that NetVista at TigerDirect for $189.99 wouldn't be a bad way to go. TigerDirect includes a 1-year parts and labor warranty, too.  smiley

Which reminds me, Balog, are you still connecting via the public library?  I haven't seen you online over the last several days...
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Balog

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Re: Help me get a computer; I'm looking at you Gewehr98!
« Reply #12 on: April 04, 2007, 05:19:43 PM »
Quote
Position:  friend

Yay, someone loves me! grin

Ok, that being said....

Many thanks for the advice; lots to think about. At first I was looking at this as kind of a stop gap to help me with my job, but given the kinds of machines I'm seeing I'm starting to wonder if this could be a rig I keep around for a while. I've been asked about anything other than basic web browsing I might be doing. If this ends up being a keeper, here are some of the random type of things I'll be doing with it.

Playing World of Warcraft; I'm not a big gamer but this is more a way to hang out in real time with friends on the other side of the country. Watching movies, both from DVD's and streaming. Burning DVD's. Creating and editing PDF's. Storing and light editing of photos and music. Ideally they'll get burnt off for long term storage, but I'll probably end up with lots of these type of files just hanging out on my hard drive. Damn it, times about up. More on this after I log in again.
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Thor

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Re: Help me get a computer; I'm looking at you Gewehr98!
« Reply #13 on: April 04, 2007, 07:29:15 PM »
Balog, check your PMs next time you log on. I think I've located something for you. It might meet your needs with some cheap upgrades over time.
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Vodka7

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Re: Help me get a computer; I'm looking at you Gewehr98!
« Reply #14 on: April 04, 2007, 07:58:59 PM »
If this ends up being a keeper, here are some of the random type of things I'll be doing with it.

Playing World of Warcraft; I'm not a big gamer but this is more a way to hang out in real time with friends on the other side of the country. Watching movies, both from DVD's and streaming. Burning DVD's. Creating and editing PDF's. Storing and light editing of photos and music. Ideally they'll get burnt off for long term storage, but I'll probably end up with lots of these type of files just hanging out on my hard drive. Damn it, times about up. More on this after I log in again.

Well, the good news is, my computer is five years old right now (P4 1.8ghz, 512megs RAM, GeForce 5200), and it does all of those things just fine (granted, WoW is not as pretty on my old PC as it'll be on yours, but it plays Smiley).  Unless you want to do heavy video work or play the newest cutting edge games, just about anything you find will work great--just make sure to stay away from Vista (your wallet *and* computer will thank you) and run a generation or two back of the Office suite.

Nick1911

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Re: Help me get a computer; I'm looking at you Gewehr98!
« Reply #15 on: April 05, 2007, 03:03:33 AM »
Well if you want a really cheap option (remember, you get what you pay for...)  I have a HP running at 333mhz I'll give you.  I haven't tried installing graphical linux on it, but it should install okay and might be okay for web browsing.  If you're interested, I'll try the install and see if it is too slow to be usable.

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Re: Help me get a computer; I'm looking at you Gewehr98!
« Reply #16 on: April 05, 2007, 05:18:55 AM »
Nick1911:

http://www.damnsmalllinux.org/  Will perform swimmingly on those resources.
Regards,

roo_ster

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Gewehr98

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Re: Help me get a computer; I'm looking at you Gewehr98!
« Reply #17 on: April 05, 2007, 06:47:08 AM »
Except he won't be able to run World of Warcraft on a 333Mhz HP running Linux. Wink

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Nick1911

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Re: Help me get a computer; I'm looking at you Gewehr98!
« Reply #18 on: April 05, 2007, 08:02:39 AM »
Well, right, but it could make a good intermediary box.

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Re: Help me get a computer; I'm looking at you Gewehr98!
« Reply #19 on: April 05, 2007, 09:08:26 AM »
There are plenty of decent PC systems you can get for under $400.

I would stay away from ebay, unless you know the seller.

Be careful of what you buy. Many of the very cheap products have no OS. they will gladly install one for you, but it is extra cost.

If you can possibly swing it, go with an LCD screen over a CRT.

bob

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Balog

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Re: Help me get a computer; I'm looking at you Gewehr98!
« Reply #20 on: April 08, 2007, 03:57:05 PM »
Update: I've got a computer! Well, sorta..... rolleyes

My friend who rents the bottom floor of our house heard about the whole off lease thing and ended up buying one for himself! You can view it here. We found an older monitor on Craig's List for $50; can't find a link but it's a 21 in Viewsonic with four integrated USB ports. Should be here in 3-7 days. We've got a place set up in the common areas on the 2nd floor (3 story house) so we can all have access.

I'm very grateful for the help so far. I'll probably be back on here later this week wondering what I'm doing wrong installing the OS or something. cheesy
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Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

Silver Bullet

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Re: Help me get a computer; I'm looking at you Gewehr98!
« Reply #21 on: April 08, 2007, 06:54:56 PM »
Quote
I'll probably be back on here later this week wondering what I'm doing wrong installing the OS or something.

Not if you get the Mac !    cool

Gewehr98

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Re: Help me get a computer; I'm looking at you Gewehr98!
« Reply #22 on: April 09, 2007, 06:17:33 AM »
Still can't get the OS to install on my PowerMac G4, so I don't know about that last statement...  sad
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Silver Bullet

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Re: Help me get a computer; I'm looking at you Gewehr98!
« Reply #23 on: April 09, 2007, 06:19:57 AM »
Sorry, that was a bit of Ford vs Chevy type humor.   smiley

Are you trying to install an earlier version over a later version ?  You may have to select the option to wipe the drive first.

Gewehr98

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Re: Help me get a computer; I'm looking at you Gewehr98!
« Reply #24 on: April 09, 2007, 06:43:33 AM »
There was no hard drive in the computer when I bought it. In hindsight, I wish there was. I've since installed a new 80Gb drive in the cute little clamshell case, connected, Master selected, and the damned thing won't install OS 9.2.  It'll crash as it boots from the CD, and that's assuming I even get to a desktop screen. 

So I've purchased an original Apple OS 9.04 Install Disk and Emergency Recovery CD set. Maybe that'll take, and then I can go the OS X route afterwards.  sad
"Bother", said Pooh, as he chambered another round...

http://neuralmisfires.blogspot.com

"Never squat with your spurs on!"