Author Topic: Fighting means dying  (Read 11870 times)

Ezekiel

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Re: Fighting means dying
« Reply #50 on: March 29, 2007, 07:04:57 AM »
Take it where-ever you want ... but in the fantasy world that I live in, killing people requires justification, not just reasons or explanations.

Which is, of course, why knee-jerk and radical, right-wing, hawks never want to talk about "justifications."

Of course, they believe we are doves who do, in fact, live in a fantasy world.  (sigh)

"Fighting means dying?"  Sure, I agree.  Of course, I prefer to fight when I am actually in danger.  Saddam didn't plan or execute 9/11, had no WMD's, folks are now backing away from the democracy thing, and factionalized Iraqis -- certainly not -- pose no threat to our society.

It's all clustered crap, bolstered by our ineffectualness in implementing a decidedly Imperialist policy.
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De Selby

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Re: Fighting means dying
« Reply #51 on: March 29, 2007, 07:07:08 AM »
Ezekiel,

It's becoming almost religious too.  Now instead of concrete predictions about how this war will benefit America with a "stable democracy"...we're getting "well, it may not be in our lifetimes, but something good will have to come..."...ie, it's so bad that the only scenarios that involve good things to come are basically afterlife stories. 
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

Perd Hapley

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Re: Fighting means dying
« Reply #52 on: March 29, 2007, 07:22:52 AM »
Take it where-ever you want ... but in the fantasy world that I live in, killing people requires justification, not just reasons or explanations.

Your fantasy world is where we get ridiculous terms like "justifiable homicide," used when a woman shoots a violent rapist.  As if such an act needed to be justified, when in fact it was obviously right in the first place.  The same goes for the deposing of a butcher like Saddam Hussein. 


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knee-jerk and radical, right-wing, hawks
This from the guy who reflexively spouts "Imperialism" and "No WMDs" every time Iraq is brought up. 
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richyoung

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Re: Fighting means dying
« Reply #53 on: March 29, 2007, 07:23:42 AM »
fistful,

Of course there is.  I'm just asking how we figured out what the "Arab mindset" is,...



It's not like they are the least bit shy about explaining their view of us as the Great satan, their desire to destroy us, and their willingness to die to do so, all whilst sawing some schlub's head off with a dull Ginsu....

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and what specific features of that mindset we're referring to here.

Respecting only force, and the will to use it.  Low value on human life, including their own and their children.  Religious fanaticism in cahoots with theocratic fascism.  Complete ineptness at conventional warfare at the strategic, operational, and tactical levels, hence their fondness of insurrection-style guerilla campaigns.  All-around racial, gender, religious, and culteral bigotry.  That should be enough to get you started.
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The fact that there are cultures doesn't mean that any claim about another culture is automatically valid, does it?

Do they have CNN where you live?
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De Selby

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Re: Fighting means dying
« Reply #54 on: March 29, 2007, 08:44:19 AM »
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It's not like they are the least bit shy about explaining their view of us as the Great satan, their desire to destroy us, and their willingness to die to do so, all whilst sawing some schlub's head off with a dull Ginsu...

Rich, do you not see the conflict between this above, and this below:

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Respecting only force, and the will to use it.

It's odd. In one breath, you assert that they are all willing to die to destroy us.  Yet, you seem to be arguing that displays of killing will discourage them.  That would only work if we presume that they do mind dying to destroy us.

I would say it's obvioulsy the case that force does not work with these people.  The Israelis have been using force for 60 years-the Arabs never got the message.  With Saddam, likewise...he was killing people all throughout his reign, and oddly, the Iraqis never got the message to stop resisting Saddam. 

So this claim that the Arabs "only understand force" seems to me to be a bit of projection.  I think the reality is that we only understand force here in America: we tend to leave alone and refrain from aggression against regimes that are capable of inflicting nasty wounds against us (like North Korea), but will ignore any legal and moral arguments against attacking regimes that we presume to be defenseless (like Arab regimes, for example.)

In sum, I think you're accusing the Arabs of understanding only force because that's the only way you can imagine dealing with different peoples-through force.  That means it's you and people like you who only understand force, not the masses of Arabs you seem to have learned about through CNN.

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Do they have CNN where you live?

This should be a truism on a gun-related forum, but CNN is not the be all and end all of answers to big questions.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

Tallpine

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Re: Fighting means dying
« Reply #55 on: March 29, 2007, 09:07:04 AM »
Why should American soldiers have to die?

I don't understand why we don't just nuke all those evil ragheads into oblivion and then colonize the entire middle east for our own purposes???

You know ... emminant domain and manifest destiny and all that Wink

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Manedwolf

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Re: Fighting means dying
« Reply #56 on: March 29, 2007, 09:17:30 AM »
It's threat of the RIGHT sort of force that be more likely to have effect.

As Tancredo said, Mecca, specifically that cube with the meteorite in it, shouldn't be considered out of the crosshairs.

Consider it mutually assured destruction for the 21st century. We let it be known that if they blow up one of our cities, we blow up THAT one. And there's no way they can stop that. That yes, if we WANTED to, we could give them two days to evacuate, then turn the whole plaza into glass, then air-drop a giant shoe onto the wreckage. We can.

They don't blow up one of our cities, we don't bother it.

Therefore, it's a deterrent.

Matthew Carberry

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Re: Fighting means dying
« Reply #57 on: March 29, 2007, 09:19:26 AM »
Regarding Sun Tzu -

The principles are valid but cannot be divorced from their political/cultural context.

Winning a bloodless battle of maneuver only works if everyone involved agrees to pack it in when one side proves their virtuosity.  Otherwise, surrounded or not, you still have to be willing and able to go in and kill the bastards or you haven't "won".

Chosin Reservoir.  Falaise pocket.  Schwarzkopf's "Left Hook".

You can set the other guy up with clever maneuver, but, unless the rules are he has to roll over at that point, you haven't won diddly.
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richyoung

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Re: Fighting means dying
« Reply #58 on: March 29, 2007, 09:20:26 AM »
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It's not like they are the least bit shy about explaining their view of us as the Great satan, their desire to destroy us, and their willingness to die to do so, all whilst sawing some schlub's head off with a dull Ginsu...

Rich, do you not see the conflict between this above, and this below:

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Respecting only force, and the will to use it.

It's odd. In one breath, you assert that they are all willing to die to destroy us.  Yet, you seem to be arguing that displays of killing will discourage them. 

Not displays of killing so much, as actual killing itself - at a rate unsustainable for the malefactors.  Being dead tends to discourage bad behavior in the dead guy - if not suppress it entirely.


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That would only work if we presume that they do mind dying to destroy us.

...or if they run out of martyrs....


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I would say it's obvioulsy the case that force does not work with these people.


Alexander the Great, Hannibal, the Roman Empire, any number of pharohs, any number of Persian emporers, the Byzantine empire, the Ottoman Empire, Lawrence of Arabia, Rommel, Patton, and Montgomery would all happily provide you with numerous counter-examples to that laughably false claim.


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The Israelis have been using force for 60 years-the Arabs never got the message.


The Israelis arenst SENDING any message, other than "leave us alone".  It is the ARABS that are trying to send a message - and that message is "we will drive you into the sea".  Unfortunatley for them, martial incompetance prevents them from paying the delivery charge...


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With Saddam, likewise...he was killing people all throughout his reign, and oddly, the Iraqis never got the message to stop resisting Saddam.
 


I would submit that most of them "got" the message, hence his longevity in power...

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In sum, I think you're accusing the Arabs of understanding only force because that's the only way you can imagine dealing with different peoples-through force.  That means it's you and people like you who only understand force, not the masses of Arabs you seem to have learned about through CNN.


I guess they don't teach history whered you live.  Your loss.
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Manedwolf

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Re: Fighting means dying
« Reply #59 on: March 29, 2007, 09:26:01 AM »

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I would say it's obvioulsy the case that force does not work with these people.


Alexander the Great, Hannibal, the Roman Empire, any number of pharohs, any number of Persian emporers, the Byzantine empire, the Ottoman Empire, Lawrence of Arabia, Rommel, Patton, and Montgomery would all happily provide you with numerous counter-examples to that laughably false claim.


Funny, the Islamic Courts sure fled out of Mogadishu with their tails between their legs when the Ethiopian Army came in with tanks...  grin

richyoung

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Re: Fighting means dying
« Reply #60 on: March 29, 2007, 09:48:39 AM »
...forgot that one...
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De Selby

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Re: Fighting means dying
« Reply #61 on: March 29, 2007, 09:57:53 AM »
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Not displays of killing so much, as actual killing itself - at a rate unsustainable for the malefactors.  Being dead tends to discourage bad behavior in the dead guy - if not suppress it entirely.

Uh, how do you kill at an unsustainable rate an enemy that is willing to kill himself for you?

What rate of killing would discourage suicide bombers?

"Running out of martyrs" doesn't happen.  It never has-Saddam killed something on the order of a million people, and guess what? They kept coming....and he was hung by the neck as soon as the lynch mob got a chance.

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Alexander the Great, Hannibal, the Roman Empire, any number of pharohs, any number of Persian emporers, the Byzantine empire, the Ottoman Empire, Lawrence of Arabia, Rommel, Patton, and Montgomery would all happily provide you with numerous counter-examples to that laughably false claim.

Wow....Alexander the Great fought Arabs? When?

Hannibal?

The Roman Empire?

The Persians were destroyed by the Byzantines.  The Byzantines were destroyed by the Arabs--where's the lesson there?

The Ottomans didn't rule the Arabs by force-and when they tried beginning in the 18th century and onwards, they rapidly lost territory to the Arabs.  Heavy handed Ottoman responses to Arab insurrection actually fomented the destruction of the Ottoman empire.

The same goes for Lawrence of Arabia....if it weren't for the Ottomans trying to force the Arabs to play ball, he would've had no audience for his revolutionary mission.  So that wasn't a "force shows the Arabs who's boss!" mission either--that was the opposite: Force inspired the Arabs to join the British and fight against Ottoman rule.

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The Israelis arenst SENDING any message, other than "leave us alone".  It is the ARABS that are trying to send a message - and that message is "we will drive you into the sea".  Unfortunatley for them, martial incompetance prevents them from paying the delivery charge...

Uh, so you don't think the Israelis are using force to try and discourage the Arabs from attacking Israel??? What planet are you from?

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I guess they don't teach history whered you live.  Your loss.

In fact they do-that's why I recognize really shallow and unreflective historical claims readily.  I think you need to do some real historical research on the list of empires you spouted (it will take years) before citing them to prove points that, in reality, they tend to disprove.

"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

Perd Hapley

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Re: Fighting means dying
« Reply #62 on: March 29, 2007, 10:08:34 AM »
And now Saddam was hung by a lynch mob.  Boy, this guy never stops. 
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De Selby

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Re: Fighting means dying
« Reply #63 on: March 29, 2007, 10:11:39 AM »
fistful,

Yeah, dudes in leather jackets and new balance sneakers hanging a guy before a crowd chanting "Muqtada! Muqtada! (al Sadr)" constitutes a lynch mob.  Saddam deserved the death penalty, most surely...but he was hung by a sectarian mob chanting sectarian slogans.  Lynch mob victims aren't always innocent; likewise, legitimate executions aren't always carried out by legitimate state officials.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

Matthew Carberry

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Re: Fighting means dying
« Reply #64 on: March 29, 2007, 10:22:29 AM »
I think the thing you're not acknowledging in Saddam's case was that he was actually tried, convicted and sentenced to hang by a court of law and was hung under those auspices in the presence of lawfully appointed executioners.

"Lynch mob" by definition implies the absolute lack of genuine state legal proceedings, and thus lack of state-sanction.


Saddam's hanging may have gone sour at the end with idiots acting the fool but it was not extra-legal and thus not a "lynching" by definition.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Fighting means dying
« Reply #65 on: March 29, 2007, 10:30:49 AM »
+1
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Art Eatman

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Re: Fighting means dying
« Reply #66 on: March 29, 2007, 10:41:26 AM »
shootinstudent, since I thing you're incorrect in your arguments against our views of the Arab mindset and/or culture, let me recommend some reading:  "What Went Wrong?" by Dr. Bernard Lewis, PhD.  He's Professor Emeritus of Arab Studies at Princeton.  "WWW" is a fairly easy read.  He's also written a few recent articles on the general subject of Arabs, Jihad and the modern world.

Look at it this way:  Machismo is encoded into Sharia, particularly as regards the superiority of men over women.  Machismo also creates a behavior pattern of arrogance toward those to be of lesser station, and servility toward those of higher station.  

That we quit at Mogadishu indicated to Arabs--and others--that patience and persistence would have us once again tuck tail and run.  It's not that we need to do all that much killing, as it is to make it believable that we won't quit.

Arabs will and have quit at the point of intolerable losses.  Witness the 1967 and 1973 invasions of Israel; the Arabs quit.

Another facet, however, is evident from the circumlocutions extant in the Arab language.  They are not at all direct in their speech.  (Translations to English are made to be direct, but they were not such in the original Arabic.)  This circumlocution makes it easy to hide feelings, or to describe defeats as victories, etc., etc.   This also allows a workup of emotion that--for example--led to the belief that 1967 wasn't really a loss, and that 1973 would succeed.  The old saw about repeating an experiment but having a different result.

When you factor in some of the other comments in posts in this thread, you can put together a package of understanding about what we face with this Jihad.

Art
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Gewehr98

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Re: Fighting means dying
« Reply #67 on: March 29, 2007, 10:42:05 AM »
"Fighting means dying"

Well, that's one interpretation, I guess.

Here's another:

"No bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country. "

Care to guess the source?
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Fighting means dying
« Reply #68 on: March 29, 2007, 11:03:44 AM »
When I style a thread (choose a title), it is with a balance of communicating the subject and making the reader take notice of the thread.  So, if you think I meant that victory in any struggle can only be accomplished through bloodshed, you may be taking things more literally than the context warrants.  Like the proverb that is generally true, but not always true for all cases at all times, "Fighting means dying," is a statement that expresses the dangers of confronting numerous violent opponents over an extended period of time and around the world.

"Fighting means dying" wouldn't apply to a personal, one-on-one self-defense situation.  In that case, fighting may be the only thing that saves your life.  But when discussing an extended global struggle, it is almost inevitable that some of your guys will die.  If no one is dying, that probably means you are not fighting and hence losing.   
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De Selby

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Re: Fighting means dying
« Reply #69 on: March 29, 2007, 11:25:38 AM »
Art,

I do know of the famous Bernard Lewis and have read  "WWW" as well as Islam and the West.  I think Juan Cole did an outstanding review of WWW in particular, which you might be interested in reading here: http://www.juancole.com/essays/revlew.htm  A choice quote from the review:

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A final question has to do with Europe, the explicit contrast for the Muslim Middle East in this book. Why does he think things "went right" in the West? I should have thought that the slaughter of World War I, the rise of fascism and communism, the 61 million butchered in World War II, the savage European repression of anticolonial movements in places like Vietnam and Algeria, and the hundreds of millions held hostage by the Cold War nuclear doctrine of "mutually assured destruction" - that all this might have raised at least a few eyebrows among emeriti historians looking for things that went wrong. It is true that the East Asian and European economies have flourished in the past 50 years under a Pax Americana, but this development hardly seems intrinsic to the West as a whole. Political and economic instability relentlessly stalked Europe in the first half of the twentieth century, and it was divided against itself in a bitter ideological battle for much of the second half. That is, even the Western European efflorescence of recent decades took place against the backdrop of a deadly Cold War that could have wiped us all out in an instant. In contrast to the massive death toll racked up by Europeans in the past century, Muslim powers in the second half of the twentieth century have probably killed only a little more than a million persons in war (mainly in the Iran-Iraq war of the 1980s). The Middle East has its problems and Muslims have theirs. Lewis's analytical views of what those problems are, why they have come about, and how to resolve them, would have been most welcome, given his vast erudition. Instead, he has chosen to play a different role in this book.

I have to admit, I lost a lot of respect for Lewis after he turned from historical scholarship to numerology-predicting August doom based on some odd religious calendar event from centures ago in Iran this past year.

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That we quit at Mogadishu indicated to Arabs--and others--that patience and persistence would have us once again tuck tail and run.  It's not that we need to do all that much killing, as it is to make it believable that we won't quit.

Again, this is hardly to do with a special feature of Arab culture.  It's been well known for centuries that inflicting military defeats on a western power will cause it to withdraw troops from foreign countries.  The problem with "showing that you won't quit" is that we're the ones with troops in their lands--hence, the impetus for wanting to expel those troops will be there and will continue to revive anti-American movements as long as the troops remain, and the people of the Arab lands don't want them.

The Israeli Palestinian conflict is a good model.  Originally, communists were the ones opposed to Israeli occupation of Palestinian land-so they fought under the banner of a socialist program for Arabs.  When they were destroyed in 1967, they were replaced shortly after by Islamists.  And if the Islamists are destroyed, they will be replaced by something else.  The source of the problem isn't the ideology-it's the conditions that will continue to produce ideology after ideology aimed at changing the conditions on the ground.


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This circumlocution makes it easy to hide feelings, or to describe defeats as victories, etc., etc.   This also allows a workup of emotion that--for example--led to the belief that 1967 wasn't really a loss, and that 1973 would succeed.  The old saw about repeating an experiment but having a different result.

I have to disagree here. It's not the Arabic language that made them think the surprise attack in 1967 (a hugely successful surprise attack, I might add) was a victory, or that the loss in 1973 was a victory.  It was the fact that the dictatorships in power during these times ran the presses-so they said whatever they wanted.

I do think it's good you brought up these models though, because what settled the wars between Egypt, Jordan, and Israel wasn't more warfare....the 73 war was undertaken just after the disastrous 67 defeat, and it's a virtual certainty that another war would've happened shortly after if Egypt had not been able to claim victory to its own population and then sign a peace treaty. 

What settled that chain of wars wasn't force-a peace treaty finally did what even the astounding 1967 success could not do, and that was break the Arabs' will to fight.  And on top of it, the stateless actors who do not benefit from treaties are indeed continuing to fight....no amount of force has yet led the Palestinians to quit fighting back, and it's unforeseeable that any amount short of genocide ever will.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

Gewehr98

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Re: Fighting means dying
« Reply #70 on: March 29, 2007, 11:54:26 AM »
Ok, this is where the gloves come off.  I'm biased, after having just retired from a successful 20+ year military career, eating, living, breathing tactics and Air Staff "recommended reading lists".

So, in answer to this:

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If no one is dying, that probably means you are not fighting and hence losing. 

No.  Not even.  It means that you're fighting the war smartly, and minimizing or even eliminating our casualties while inflicting disproportionately heavy losses on the enemy, eliminating their will and means to fight. We Americans cannot stomach seeing a lot of our young folks in body bags on the evening news, that's become a truism since the end of WWII.  So we fight smarter, while limiting our exposure to enemy tactics.  Case in point?  I cannot begin to figure how many Republican Guard I personally sent to meet Allah with just my first B-52H strike in Desert Storm.  I was never privy to the Battle Damage Assesment afterwards. I finished the sortie and was home in time for dinner and the droning AFRTS network TV reruns. That's ZERO casualties on our side,  60,000 pounds of ordnance and the subsequent casualties on their side.  Lopsided?  Damn straight. If you can't fight fair, then don't enter the fight at all, because you sure as Hell don't want to see the results of a "fair" fight on TV these days.

If you're not seeing a lot of casualties on our side, maybe it's because our side killed the combatants on their side before they could get a shot off, hmm?   rolleyes
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Ezekiel

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Re: Fighting means dying
« Reply #71 on: March 29, 2007, 01:02:47 PM »
Unfortunately -- respectfully -- Stratofortresses cannot take, or hold, enemy territory.

We'll always require minions for that...
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richyoung

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Re: Fighting means dying
« Reply #72 on: March 29, 2007, 01:29:37 PM »
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Not displays of killing so much, as actual killing itself - at a rate unsustainable for the malefactors.  Being dead tends to discourage bad behavior in the dead guy - if not suppress it entirely.

Uh, how do you kill at an unsustainable rate an enemy that is willing to kill himself for you?

Math not a strong suite of yours?  Maintain conditions so that the the exisiting pool of insurgents is decreasing faster than the local birth rate - kill them faster than they are born.  Eventually, math wins out.

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What rate of killing would discourage suicide bombers?

A rate greater than their ability to recruit (kinder, gentler version), or reproduce.  The later number will be approximately the number of fertile women, per year.

"
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Running out of martyrs" doesn't happen.  It never has-

Beg to differ, old sport.  Aztecs, Mayans, Apaches, Neanderthal Man, Carthaginians, the Aiynue,....the list goes on and on....

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Saddam killed something on the order of a million people, and guess what? They kept coming....and he was hung by the neck as soon as the lynch mob got a chance.

How many died in the top ten firebomb/nuke strikes on Japan?  That didn;t take decades, and we are LOTS better at it now.


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In fact they do-that's why I recognize really shallow and unreflective historical claims readily.
 

You might want to finish coloring in ALL the pages of your text books before you sprain your elbow patting yourself on the back.....

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I think you need to do some real historical research on the list of empires you spouted (it will take years) before citing them to prove points that, in reality, they tend to disprove.

I think I need to reserve my comments for the adults...
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De Selby

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Re: Fighting means dying
« Reply #73 on: March 29, 2007, 01:58:34 PM »
richyoung,

Yes, comments in support of genocide and comparing modern societies to ancient tribes are "for adults"....but only special adults.

You are naming apples and oranges-->where force worked in your examples, it worked by genocide in similar situations.  Where it worked in Japan, it was a war against an Imperial state, not a war to continue occupation of someone else's country.  A more approrpiate comparison is Vietnam, where more force was applied than in World War II...yes, more force, more bombs, over a smaller area. 

And the more we applied, the more they fought back.  Different world, different situation from colonial Mexico (which, incidentally, was conquered through alliances with the natives...one native against another, not by a superman Spaniard.)

Usually though, "force" becomes a euphamism for genocide in these discussions.  And my response is: if you wouldn't support building gas chambers and running every single person in the population of your targets through it, you aren't being principled when you call for the same effect by other means.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

Art Eatman

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Re: Fighting means dying
« Reply #74 on: March 29, 2007, 02:51:41 PM »
Y'know, the odd part of all this is that if this insurgency hadn't arisen, we'd already be out of Iraq.  About a year into it, it was obvious that had the leadership of the insurgent groups given some thought to our motivations and/or expectations, all they had to do was drop back aa bit in their efforts and they could have waved "Bye-bye" to us...

I disagree with you, shootinstudent, on our views of circumlocutions.  It's way too reminiscent of bureaucratese and the way that distorts reality.  Habitual word games lead to mind games and delusions.

I hadn't heard of Lewis' notions about numerology.  But, that doesn't invalidate his analyses of earlier years.
The American Indians learned what happens when you don't control immigration.