Author Topic: Fighting means dying  (Read 11868 times)

Perd Hapley

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Fighting means dying
« on: March 27, 2007, 03:06:12 AM »
I don't know where or when it occurred to me - sometime after 11 Sept. and before we invaded Iraq.  But at some point I realized that if we did not see soldiers returning in body bags for the next several years, it would mean one thing: that we weren't actually fighting the terrorists. 

Discuss. 
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TarpleyG

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Re: Fighting means dying
« Reply #1 on: March 27, 2007, 03:27:36 AM »
It's a sad, but necessary truth.  I have no issue with us doing what we did but at this point, we either need to *expletive deleted*it or get off the pot as my dear mother used to tell me.

Greg

Art Eatman

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Re: Fighting means dying
« Reply #2 on: March 27, 2007, 03:34:41 AM »
All we hear about is how many of our guys die.  The kill ratio isn't published, since that might give the public the idea that our guys are doing okay.  From what I read, bits and pieces here and there, we're doing about 20:!, our favor.

Our losses are the smallest of any war we've ever been in, for the amount of actual fighting.

So far, we've disrupted the whole Al Qaida deal.  We're fighting elsewhere, not here at home.  And as long as the Jihadists' attention is focussed on Iraq, they're less likely to blow up bridges, refineries and shoot up shopping malls here in the US.

Pardon my cynicism:  For the age group in the military, just as in Vietnam, deaths per 100,000 is more likely from driving a car than from being shot in fighting.

None of the above means that I think the post-combat phase has been properly dealt with insofar as policy and politics, overall, for Iraq.  I gotta say, though, that by not being on the scene I don't have alternative answers.

Art
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Manedwolf

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Re: Fighting means dying
« Reply #3 on: March 27, 2007, 04:21:49 AM »
I don't know where or when it occurred to me - sometime after 11 Sept. and before we invaded Iraq.  But at some point I realized that if we did not see soldiers returning in body bags for the next several years, it would mean one thing: that we weren't actually fighting the terrorists. 

Discuss. 

That, or we'd shifted to some of the things we should be doing, like carpeting the skies of Afghanistan and Pakistan with Predator drones until we find bin Laden. The world's last view of that beard should be from the nose of a camera-carrying munition.

I would like to know what sending the same troops on the same "patrols" every day to get blown up by the same IEDs by the same people who know where the same patrols go...is accomplishing.

The same for taking a town, leaving it, letting it get infested with insurgents again, come back, re-take it, leave it, repeat, repeat, repeat...

The Rabbi

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Re: Fighting means dying
« Reply #4 on: March 27, 2007, 04:43:47 AM »
Our resident idiot columnist in the Tennessean, Dwight Lewis, opined on Sunday that the reason there wasnt more opposition to the war was the lack of body bags coming back.  Have more body bags and you'd have more opposition.
Sounded to me like he was pushing for more US casualties.
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Art Eatman

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Re: Fighting means dying
« Reply #5 on: March 27, 2007, 06:14:51 AM »
Rabbi, I halfway doubt the interpretation of "We need more casualties."  Face it, most people pay little attention to the outside world, on any day-to-day basis.  So, if they're not slapped in the face with a daily view on TV of body bags, or in their local paper, there's nothing for them to protest.

Maybe the guy is saying, if you want more opposition, you need more VIEWS of bodybags; not that you need more casualties.

"I would like to know what sending the same troops on the same "patrols" every day to get blown up by the same IEDs by the same people who know where the same patrols go...is accomplishing."

That's ROE and officers, in-country local.  Yeah, it's dumb.  Soldier of Fortune magazine has been publishing letters from GIs on this general sort of stuff. 

Art
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French G.

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Re: Fighting means dying
« Reply #6 on: March 27, 2007, 06:45:09 AM »
Like it or not I think that this war got us out of the post-Vietnam aversion to casualties mode. Right from the start of the war we fought hard and took losses but kept going. That is a great improvement over say, Somalia, where a 19 KIA(at about a 25:1 kill ratio) bloody nose caused us to cut and run. That and similar episodes emboldened jihadis everywhere because they knew we did not have the will to fight. Hopefully they think twice now.
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MechAg94

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Re: Fighting means dying
« Reply #7 on: March 27, 2007, 06:58:51 AM »
The reaction to casualties is all about leadership at the top.


I was never really upset with the reason we went into Iraq, but I have been increasingly concerned with how we were fighting it.  I don't think Americans or US soldiers have a problem with paying the cost, but they want it to be meaningful and accomplish something; not wasted due to bad leadership, politics, or foolish rules of engagement.  That Patton movie was close to right:  Americans love a winner and can't stand to be a loser (or something like that). 
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280plus

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Re: Fighting means dying
« Reply #8 on: March 27, 2007, 07:14:04 AM »
If you take the 58,000 KIA in VN and divide it by 20 years you get ~2,700 KIA per year, here we've been going at it 5 years(?) now and have lost ~3100, now that's ~600 per year, no? Seems like a pretty great improvement to me, given the enemy we are fighting ans where we are fighting them.
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The Rabbi

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Re: Fighting means dying
« Reply #9 on: March 27, 2007, 07:16:39 AM »
http://www.tennessean.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070325/COLUMNIST0107/703250364/1101

Sorry, my mistake.  His point was that we need to have more photos of body bags coming back.  Some Pentagon policy or other.
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Art Eatman

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Re: Fighting means dying
« Reply #10 on: March 27, 2007, 07:30:26 AM »
I guess it's a mixed bag, Rabbi.  (No pun intended.)  The way our media drools and slobbers over anything that's "human interest", particularly when it's tragic--well, "disgusting" is about the most polite word I can think of.  The dead deserve respect, not drool and slobber.

If there's anything that pushes me toward Fist City, it's some Newsie with his/her (okay, "Its"), "How does it FEE-YUL to know your son (daughter, husband) died (here, there, yonder, however)?"

Art
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Re: Fighting means dying
« Reply #11 on: March 27, 2007, 07:49:16 AM »
Art, there might be benefit to showing something like that but you know and I know the media will use it in the most cynical exploitative way.
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wmenorr67

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Re: Fighting means dying
« Reply #12 on: March 27, 2007, 08:00:39 AM »
What is really disturbing is that there are many more innocent civilians being killed than there is us or the bad guys.  On top of that the bad guys are really starting to use innocent childern to do their bidding now.
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Manedwolf

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Re: Fighting means dying
« Reply #13 on: March 27, 2007, 09:06:12 AM »
What is really disturbing is that there are many more innocent civilians being killed than there is us or the bad guys.

That tends to happen in every war fought not in open plains, but in, around, or above cities.

Quote
On top of that the bad guys are really starting to use innocent childern to do their bidding now.

Shhh. Can't say that, the "moderate muslims" will respond with...uh...deafening silence on the issue.  rolleyes

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Re: Fighting means dying
« Reply #14 on: March 27, 2007, 09:07:12 AM »
We're hearing that we "have them on the ropes". What say you?
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Manedwolf

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Re: Fighting means dying
« Reply #15 on: March 27, 2007, 09:08:26 AM »
I'd say that in many wrestling matches, the guy on the ropes uses the ropes as leverage to launch themselves at the legs of the guy walking up to them.

Plus, how many times have we heard "last throes"? And if we keep "reaching turning points", it means we're going in a circle.

De Selby

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Re: Fighting means dying
« Reply #16 on: March 27, 2007, 09:59:15 AM »
Well, we did give the Iraqis their first democratic vote in recent history.

They promptly voted to ally themselves with Iran.  Now we're scrambling to declare Iranian influence in Iraq an act of war, while at the same time keeping up the facade of "respecting Iraqi democracy."

That's an impossible position to be in.  I don't think this war can possibly have a good outcome for the US at this point.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

Art Eatman

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Re: Fighting means dying
« Reply #17 on: March 27, 2007, 12:27:48 PM »
I learned a fair bit about chess when I was a kid.  I had a knack for it.  Somewhere in my teens I read Kipling's "Kim", getting my first acquaintance with the concept of "The Great Game" of international relationships.  What it amounts to, overall, is that international politics/policies/actions are much like a 3-D chess game:  Complex.

Bush and his people just aren't that good at it--not that I think any other woulda-beens or wannabes are any better. 

The U.S. is handicapped by our TV mentality and do-good-itis.  Start with a problem, throw money and technology at it, and there will be a clear-cut happy ending in 22, 44 or 88 minutes.  Plus advertising time.  We're not wired up for the long haul in much of anything.

The obvious example is our botch in Vietnam.  We messed up bigtime on the political end of it, being totally out-propagandized by our enemies.  So, we pulled out, promising the South Vietnamese ongoing financial and materiel support.  "Ongoing" was two years.  Third year, the NVA won, entering the south with more armor than the Russians had when going into Berlin.  It took some twenty years for us to mostly recover from the debacle.

If we pull out now, we're not leaving behind a bunch of cold-blooded rational thinkers like the Asians and the Kremlin.  We'd be showing the yellow stripe, insofar as the population of the middle east is concerned.  We'd be, in their eyes, proving that we're wussies; all show and no go.  That would be an encouragement to bring IEDs out of Iraq and other places, right here to the U.S.  And the leaders of those countries are fully aware of that.

The Iranian goal is the *expletive deleted*it Crescent, from Iran to Egypt, with Israel becoming a footnote to history.  And full control of all that oil.  With the oil money, they can then have all the nukes and delivery systems they want, they believe.  It's just a matter of time.

Chess game:  How many moves ahead--and countermoves--can you envision?

Art
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Manedwolf

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Re: Fighting means dying
« Reply #18 on: March 27, 2007, 12:30:45 PM »
We aren't playing chess right now.

We're playing checkers.

Whereas one plays chess with the endgame in mind, checkers tends to be looking for an opening for a short-term jump.

De Selby

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Re: Fighting means dying
« Reply #19 on: March 27, 2007, 12:37:56 PM »
Art,

I see what you're saying about thinking ahead, but I disagree with the particulars.  First off, I don't agree that leaving Iraq will bring attacks to the US.  I doubt the terrorists care whether or not we're "wussies"; they just care whether or not they can get what they want.  If what they want is the US out of the middle east, leaving the middle east is the end of the story.  And even after a pullout from Iraq, we can still strike terrorists like we did before...kidnappings, bombings, assassinations, etc.  I think a continued program of attacking terrorists and a pullout from Iraq to deprive them of propaganda tools would be more effective than staying in Iraq on the theory that it will prove our metal to them.

But the bigger problem is with the whole strategy of taking down Iraq:  If you think keeping Iran out of the Arab world was a worthy goal, it's now clear that taking down Saddam was the worst possible mistake to make.  We thought the Iraqis would thank us and elect a pro-US government; now it's obvious that given a choice, the Iraqis are choosing brotherhood with Iran.  So the Iraq war handed the Iranians exactly what they needed to get control of their Shia crescent: an Iraq where the people vote on what they want.

I don't think there's any foreseeable reality in which the people of Iraq are anti-Iran.  I mean, they elected people to parliament who had bombed US embassies.  There's literally no one in Iraq, aside from the Sunni militants who hate us even more than the Iranians, that is anti-Iran.

IMO, this has already gone down as a checkmate for Iran.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

The Rabbi

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Re: Fighting means dying
« Reply #20 on: March 27, 2007, 12:38:33 PM »
We're not playing either chess or checkers.  We are playing tidliwinks, where you try to upset your opponent to win the game.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Fighting means dying
« Reply #21 on: March 27, 2007, 01:12:36 PM »
Checkmate for Iran?  What does that mean?  Checkmate means you've won, your enemy is totally defeated, regardless what you do next.  So, if this is checkmate for Iran, they've won.  Now, what have they won, who is their enemy, and how is that enemy defeated?


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staying in Iraq on the theory that it will prove our metal to them.

Over and over and over again, when someone opposes the Iraq war or calls it a mistake, they take any single motive that is offered, "rebutt" it, and think they've won the argument, completely ignoring other, complimentary reasons for the war.  Here we go again. 

Firstly, "mettle" is under discussion and not "metal."

Secondly, there are numerous reasons to stay in Iraq, other than "proving our mettle."  Giving the impression of cowardice is simply a very real consequence, and one that pro-war individuals mistakenly believe will be widely understood.  We are too optimistic.  Knee-jerk nay-sayers simply refuse to understand the importance of "mettle" to those who would attack us. 
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De Selby

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Re: Fighting means dying
« Reply #22 on: March 27, 2007, 01:45:09 PM »
fistful

If the goal is to keep Iran out of Iraq and have an Iraqi democracy, yes, they have clearly won. That is because any move we make defeats one of those two goals:  Either Iraq is a democracy, and they elect an assortment of people with close ties to Iran (even Iranian terrorists), or we keep the Iranians out of Iraq by destroying Iraqi democracy.  There is no way to have both, because the majority of Iraqis support Iran and want to connect their country to Iran.

Hence, checkmate on the issue.  Any way we turn, we lose out on one of the main goals of the war.

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Firstly, "mettle" is under discussion and not "metal."

Appreciate the correction-I left my dictionary/thesaurus set in the closet.

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Secondly, there are numerous reasons to stay in Iraq, other than "proving our mettle."  Giving the impression of cowardice is simply a very real consequence, and one that pro-war individuals mistakenly believe will be widely understood.  We are too optimistic.  Knee-jerk nay-sayers simply refuse to understand the importance of "mettle" to those who would attack us.

Alright, so in other words, the longer we stay in Iraq, the safer America is, even at the going rate?

Is that your analysis?

I'm sorry if I don't see why that would naturally be widely understood.  It looks more to be the case that the terrorists will begin to believe that we are a gang of incompetents the longer we stay in Iraq, than anything else.  It also defies reason to believe that people who will blow themselves up to fight US forces in Iraq will be impressed by US 'staying power' in the region. 

Scaring the natives with our strength is the wrong way to analyze this war.  It's a mindset that belongs in Colonial New Spain, not 21st century Iraq.
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Balog

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Re: Fighting means dying
« Reply #23 on: March 27, 2007, 02:00:51 PM »
wmenorr67: they've started using kids more? Damn, when I was over we always felt a lot safer when there were a bunch of kids around. Of course I was in Ramadi, the Sunni insurgent capital of Iraq; darn near all of our bad guys were local.

As for the way we're fighting..... the ROE's (when I was over, which was late 2005-early 2006) were at least livable. Some things really angered me, but it wasn't as bad as the books I've read about Vietnam. I think we put way too much emphasis on avoiding collateral dmage, tho. Example: the Army had an arty battery with the ability to pinpoint the location of the mortars being fired at us, but they weren't allowed to return fire into the city because the Paladins had too much of a kill radius. I think the certain knowledge that if you let your neighbor shoot a mortar at US troops your house would become a smoking pile of rubble would be a pretty good incentive to keep mortars out of your neighborhood.
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Re: Fighting means dying
« Reply #24 on: March 27, 2007, 04:16:20 PM »
The war against Islamic terrorist savagry should have been an Air Force mission, not a Marine and Army land war in Asia.

The entire Middle East isn't worth a single drop of American blood.
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