Tulsi Gabbard TORCHES Democrats in announcement about leaving the party

[Perd Hapley]

FWIW, I went looking for the various lists of worst states for gun owners. Hawaii did appear as #1 on one of them, but New York gets top billing on one of the commonly-cited lists. One list even has Hawaii as 9th-worst.

Doesn't mean Hawaii isn't the worst, but it may say something about how much people know about that state's gun laws and anti-gun attitudes.

[230RN]

Relative statements, Perd.  The facts remain.  I don't see how documenting "how bad" Hawaii is affects my observations as to the background from which she has emerged.  Or my remark about not all "gunnies" are aware of the anti-attitude in Hawaii.  How many know you need an MD certification to own a gun in Hawaii?

Go browse 2ahawaii.com .  Tell 'em I sent you.  :roffle:

Enough on this molehill of a side issue.

Terry, 230RN

Addendum:  I think this was my last post there:

https://2ahawaii.com/index.php?topic=32172.msg284843#msg284843

[Hawkmoon]

I've never heard that Hawaii was worse than any of the continental anti-gun states.

I think the statistic is that -- although on paper Hawaii issues carry permits -- the fact is that there have only been six permits issued in 21 years, in the entire state. Since the NYSRPA v Bruen decision, there has only been ONE new permit issued.

[Perd Hapley]

Relative statements, Perd.  The facts remain.  I don't see how documenting "how bad" Hawaii is affects my observations as to the background from which she has emerged. 

I don't, either. Just exploring a topic that's relatively new to me.

[Ben]

So if you want to see where Tulsi is on guns now, this is the video to watch:

https://youtu.be/RvkrlvYFlEU

(It's an hour long (but see below), so the gist of it is that she says having been raised in Hawaii and in that culture, and not being around guns much, even in the military, her old views were that the idea of the second amendment as a line in the sand against a tyrannical government just didn't play out in the United States, because how could this "democracy" ever become tyrannical? That's just stuff for fringe people.

Then she began seeing that (see this video: https://youtu.be/VRZQNn6VZnY) holy crap, could the US really turn tyrannical?!? She says that what is currently going on in the country is what opened her eyes to the Second Amendment. She seems sincere.

Anyway, I've actually subscribed to her channel. I usually have a hard time sitting through hour long youtube monologues, but hers have gotten my attention. Even if I don't agree with everything she says, she is giving cogent and thoughtful arguments that are making me thoughtful regarding my own opinions. It's what civil debate used to be before the world got crazy.

[cordex]

As I've said before, I think Tulsi is someone who genuinely loves America and - whether I agree with her on specific issues or not - I think she is interested in the well-being of the nation.  I can appreciate political opponents like her.

I like a lot of what she had to say about guns in that video, but how she would apply her newfound approval of the second amendment if she were ever to be in a position of political power again is still a question.

I'm not ready to vote for her - especially since guns aren't the only issue she and I have at least historically disagreed on, but I appreciate her at least coming out and taking an unpopular stand.

[K Frame]

Oh hell, we're losing Ben...

BEN! COME BACK TO US, BEN!

Sorry, Steve, he's a liberal now. You'll have to get used to vegan dog food...

[Ben]

Oh hell, we're losing Ben...

BEN! COME BACK TO US, BEN!

Sorry, Steve, he's a liberal now. You'll have to get used to vegan dog food...

Well, they say that dogs are democrats, so I guess I'm joining Steve. The Republican cat will not be happy. 

[Ben]

As I've said before, I think Tulsi is someone who genuinely loves America and - whether I agree with her on specific issues or not - I think she is interested in the well-being of the nation.  I can appreciate political opponents like her.

I like a lot of what she had to say about guns in that video, but how she would apply her newfound approval of the second amendment if she were ever to be in a position of political power again is still a question.

I'm not ready to vote for her - especially since guns aren't the only issue she and I have at least historically disagreed on, but I appreciate her at least coming out and taking an unpopular stand.

I agree with all that. A lot of people are still saying "It's a trap!". Guns and Gadgets put out a pretty scathing video about that yesterday.

As for me, I'd like to still see some proof as well, but so far she seems to have genuinely been red-pilled, or more so libertarian pilled, which I guess she has always leaned toward, and I think that libertarian bent is what has caused her to change her views. I don't think she had an epiphany on the 2nd Amendment alone. From what she's been talking about, she's had an epiphany that yes, the US actually could become totalitarian, and that her old party is driving that, and the 2nd Amendment realignment is an offshoot of that realization.

[Pb]

Is she still in favor of killing children in the womb, and socialist medicine?

Let me know when she actually does something pro-gun, instead of just talking about it.

Politicians are liars, and she has a history of voting for banning guns.

[Perd Hapley]

[checks to see what office Gabbard is running for]

Give her some space, and let's see where she goes. She's kicking the Dem. Party in the teeth just before an important set of elections. That much we can trust, so why not be happy about it?

If she says she's running for office again, then it will be time to look at her sideways.

By the same token, we don't have to beatify her, either.

[gunsmith]

I recall reading she's in some kind of cult, but it was so long ago I could never find a link..
.
 

[checks to see what office Gabbard is running for]

Give her some space, and let's see where she goes. She's kicking the Dem. Party in the teeth just before an important set of elections. That much we can trust, so why not be happy about it?

If she says she's running for office again, then it will be time to look at her sideways.

By the same token, we don't have to beatify her, either.

I pretty much agree, and I will add ... she seems quite smart, she could know that the party and culture of double mastectomies for healthy little girls and indoctrination of little boys to be little girls , the destroy your kids party - is heading for a major backlash ...
 It seems to me that she has done some research of some kind and knows  something ....

 Or, it could be an honest conversion - I was a lefty liberal in the 70's / 80's - it wasn't until BJ Clinton ( ok william  jefferson clinton )
and his wife decided to destroy monica did I reject all things liberal.

the more I know the more I listen and learn, the more right/libertarian/anarchist/christian/talmudic/westerner I become.

She could be just an honest  gal, I sure hope so, but she's not running and supporting what seems to be good people ...
Maybe she's angling for VP under trump - turning hawaii red would be fun

[HankB]

I think she's 41. Why does this matter?

Sir Winston Churchill is often credited^* with the saying "If you're not a liberal at 20, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative at 40, you have no head."

MAYBE Tulsi has had an awakening.

Maybe. Let's keep an eye on her and pay attention to what she actually DOES as time goes on. For now I'll give her the benefit of the doubt, but as far as I'm concerned she's on probation. And there's nothing "double secret" about it.


^* This supposed Churchillian quote - or some variation of it - was around long before Churchill arrived on the scene.

[Ben]

Sir Winston Churchill is often credited^* with the saying "If you're not a liberal at 20, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative at 40, you have no head."

MAYBE Tulsi has had an awakening.

As have we all. As Gunsmith alludes, are there any of us with some years behind us that have the same philosophy and morals as we did at 20 now at 40, or 50, or 60? Twenty year old Ben was kind of an idiot. I'm hoping 62 year old Ben is less of an idiot.

[K Frame]

Fortunately I was 40 when I was born.

I had my first political awakening in the run up to the 1976 presidential elections.

My Grandfather followed politics closely (not a particularly well educated man, but my God was he smart, insightful, and highly analytical). He was not a fan of Roosevelt or the New Deal.

Grandpa and I watched the televised debate between Ford and Carter. I don't remember much about it, but I do remember thinking that Carter was just making NO sense whatever. I asked Grandpa, and he confirmed... Carter was making no sense at all.

I would have loved to have known Grandpa's views on Ronald Reagan, but by the time the 1980 elections came around Grandpa had had the first of a couple of strokes and Grandma had died, all of which otherwise directed his attention.

[Ben]

Fortunately I was 40 when I was born.

I had my first political awakening in the run up to the 1976 presidential elections.

My Grandfather followed politics closely (not a particularly well educated man, but my God was he smart, insightful, and highly analytical). He was not a fan of Roosevelt or the New Deal.

I mean, I have always been a Republican, from 18 on, and much of that was through my parents influence. However I was kind of a superficial Republican.

For instance, even though I was already into guns, at 20, I probably wouldn't have cared if there was an "assault weapons" ban. I wouldn't have been for it, but wouldn't have cared much if one passed. It wasn't until I got some age and experience and the patience to thoroughly study and understand issues that I began to consider consequences beyond talking points.

I also considered myself an environmentalist. I loved hunting and fishing and backpacking, so why wouldn't I want to protect the Earth? I was in the Sierra Club and subscribed to Outside Magazine and fully behind protecting the environment. It wasn't until I got some age and experience and the patience to look under the surface of "environmentalism" and see it for the socialism that it was/is, that I came to realize I was really more of a conservationist and that environmentalists are morons.

I'd like to think that if I was in my 20s in the 2000s instead of the 80s, that I would have had more thoroughly considered the above issues. Certainly I think I wouldn't have considered myself an environmentalist considering how militant they were by that time.

[K Frame]

1976?

I was 11.

Guns? I can't remember a time when I wasn't fascinated by guns.

I will admit, however, that I didn't much care about the machine gun restrictions in the 1986 law. I was 21 then. It wasn't until later that I began to care about that.

My bad.

[Angel Eyes]

Tulsi Gabbard discusses 2A and gun control with Steve Scalise:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RvkrlvYFlEU

[230RN]

Same:  Head versus heart, except transition for me was at college in early 'fifties.

Raised in NYC's elementary school system, I still remember eighth grade, with a Mr. Piana,  our civics teacher, telling us that there was no good reason for a person to keep more than $50,000 in earnings and other anti-capitalist dicta.  Lived with the NYC School System's propaganda until I got to college.

That was when a dorm-mate got me going on Ayn Rand's works.  Did not agree completely, but it was like a window opening and my head started to take over.

I still remember with Kodachrome clarity, that damned Mr. Piana  making those $50,000 a year remarks and writing 50,000! in big letters on the blackboard.

Terry, 230RN

[WLJ]

Same:  Head versus heart, except transition for me was at college in early 'fifties.

Raised in NYC's elementary school system, I still remember eighth grade, when a Mr. Piana,  our civics teacher, telling us that there was no good reason for a person to keep more than $50,000 in earnings and other anti-capitalist dicta.  Lived with the NYC School System's propaganda until I got to college.

That was when a dorm-mate got me going on Ayn Rand's works.  Did not agree completely, but it was like a window opening and my head started to take over.

I still remember with Kodachrome clarity, that damned Mr. Piana  making those $50,000 a year remarks and writing 50,000! in big letters on the blackboard.

Terry, 230RN

Anyone know of a rich lefty that willingly give up most of their money?

[HankB]

. . . I still remember eighth grade, when a Mr. Piana,  our civics teacher, telling us that there was no good reason for a person to keep more than $50,000 in earnings and other anti-capitalist dicta . . .

I had a teacher in high school who said much the same thing - he was mighty displeased with me when I asked what society was going to do when doctors all went on sabbatical at the end of the 1st quarter, electricians and plumbers all quit mid year, etc. He didn't quite grasp that once people hit his "government mandated maximum income" they would simply stop working and go on vacation.