Yet another room temp superconductor "breakthrough"

[Brad Johnson]

...only this time it's accompanied by some actual science.

Story is making the science news circuit. Material showing superconducting properties at not only room temp, but at temps up to 127 C.

What makes this story even more interesting is the developers aren't making a bunch of claims and then clamming up on details. They've released actual methods and test results, at least enough that others should be able to make their own attempts.

https://www.science.org/content/blog-post/breaking-superconductor-news

I don't doubt there will end up being many, many hiccups, qualifiers, "maybe's" and "only if's" in followup efforts, but if the initial findings pan out it will be an interesting week.

Brad

[RocketMan]

Hopefully it will be more believable than all the fusion reaction breakthroughs we've been hearing about lately.

[WLJ]

Hopefully it will be more believable than all the fusion reaction breakthroughs we've been hearing about lately.

Been running the house on one of these for a year now.
One banana peel and I'm good for a couple of weeks.

[grampster]

I saw an ad somewhere on the innertube that Elon Musk is selling some gizmo you plug into an outlet and it cuts your power use in half.  If only........

[Nick1911]

I saw an ad somewhere on the innertube that Elon Musk is selling some gizmo you plug into an outlet and it cuts your power use in half.  If only........

Mmm power factor correction scam.  That's been going on a long time.

[HankB]

I saw an ad somewhere on the innertube that Elon Musk is selling some gizmo you plug into an outlet and it cuts your power use in half.  If only........

About as effective as cow magnets on the gas line or the plexiglas pyramid they were selling to put above your carburetor to harness "pyramid power" and double your gas mileage.

As for the superconductors, I really hope the researchers are on the level - it's hard to see how they could benefit by faking something like Pons/Fleischman's "cold fusion" or Weber's phony "gravity wave" experiment.

[MechAg94]

Dumb question.  If superconducting transmission lines were a thing, would AC power remain as the standard?  I was thinking one of the main reasons that became standard was long range power transmission with fewer losses.  Industry is heavily invested in AC infrastructure so certainly nothing would change in the short term.  I am sure when it came to the point of replacing existing transmission infrastructure, someone would be looking hard at that.   

Even if this is superconducting, it sounds like it may not handle a lot of current so the initial applications might be limited.  Might still be pretty impactful.  I want a Shipstone for my house (hopefully without the corrupt megacorporation). 

[WLJ]

Before I get all excited about a new super conductor I ask

1) Can it be economically produced?
2) Can it actually be used, as in have the strength etc..., for things like power lines?
3) Will production require some element that the current admin and the dems in general will make sure we can only get from China ?

[K Frame]

"I was thinking one of the main reasons that became standard was long range power transmission with fewer losses."

Exactly. A direct current grid would have required hundreds, or even thousands, of power stations to supply the needs of a modern city. They would have had to have been located every few blocks and would have taken up a massive amount of real estate.

Another primary reason for AC winning was that it was, and is, far more flexible at supplying systems requiring different voltages.

But, we could be seeing a resurgence in DC systems with the rise of alternative sources of electric generation and storage, most of which produce DC current.

[MechAg94]

Before I get all excited about a new super conductor I ask

1) Can it be economically produced?
2) Can it actually be used, as in have the strength etc..., for things like power lines?
3) Will production require some element that the current admin and the dems in general will make sure we can only get from China ?

One of the base materials is lead which we don't produce anymore.  Not that we couldn't do so if we wanted to.

From what I see in that report, it can't be used in power lines.  However, if it turns out to be what they say, it should only be the starting point.  Once they have a room temp superconductor to play with, I would expect more testing/understanding of how it works leading to other materials development.

[MechAg94]

"I was thinking one of the main reasons that became standard was long range power transmission with fewer losses."

Exactly. A direct current grid would have required hundreds, or even thousands, of power stations to supply the needs of a modern city. They would have had to have been located every few blocks and would have taken up a massive amount of real estate.

Another primary reason for AC winning was that it was, and is, far more flexible at supplying systems requiring different voltages.

But, we could be seeing a resurgence in DC systems with the rise of alternative sources of electric generation and storage, most of which produce DC current.

I would expect development of some serious batteries and storage capacitors.

[230RN]

DC AND I SQUARED R REQUIREMENTS

One of the base materials is lead which we don't produce anymore.  Not that we couldn't do so if we wanted to.

From what I see in that report, it can't be used in power lines.  However, if it turns out to be what they say, it should only be the starting point.  Once they have a room temp superconductor to play with, I would expect more testing/understanding of how it works leading to other materials development.

Like transistors.  From the first awkwardly-rigged one to where each of us has literally (literally) millions of them working for us.

With I²R losses becoming zero with R as a zero, transmission lines would not need high voltage.

But I wondered about the up and down voltage requirements for a lot of applications.  At present, You need 480VAC(+) to run the elevators in your building, but only 110-VAC for your desk lamp. 

So, thinking about it, wiith elevator motors (e.g.) only needing 12 gauge wiring in their field coils and therefore now running with the very high currents now required (at low DC voltage) to create the necessary magnetic forces, maybe we could get away with only 12VDC coming into the building.

Thinking, thinking...

Terry, 230RN

[Doggy Daddy]

Just when it's becoming necessary to radically upgrade the power grid for all the electric cars and electric stoves and electric heaters etc. etc. etc...

How convenient! 

[WLJ]

Just when it's becoming necessary to radically upgrade the power grid for all the electric cars and electric stoves and electric heaters etc. etc. etc...

How convenient!

?

[WLJ]

Anton has his doubts

If This Superconductor Is Real, It's a Nobel Prize! But Let's Talk First
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WV2AexANG34

[K Frame]

I would expect development of some serious batteries and storage capacitors.

You're already seeing that with things like Tesla's power wall.

In a way, it's something of a circling back in technology.

Before widespread electrification companies like Lister in England and Delco in the United States made home power systems -- a small gasoline, kerosene or diesel engines that turned a generator that charged banks of batteries. Mostly these were lead acid batteries, but some systems I've heard about used Edison's iron nickle batteries. The nickle iron batteries were more expensive but incredibly durable. Basically you couldn't kill them. The Baker electric car used nickle iron batteries.

Everything was, of course, direct current, and there was a very robust market for DC products -- irons, vacuum cleaners, power stand motors.

Lots of fun information on the Delco systems here: http://delcolight.com/

Of course, these days everything has to be converted to AC power with probably a pretty substantial loss of current.

[K Frame]

Would be very interesting to build a house in which all of the lighting ran off a solar/battery array. LED has such a low draw that you could keep the place brilliantly lit for a LONG time with very little draw on the battery bank.

[Nick1911]

Of course, these days everything has to be converted to AC power with probably a pretty substantial loss of current.

I'm assuming you mean power, not current.

I do not forsee this causing significant changes to the electric grid.  It will stay AC because 1) there's way too much established infrastructure 2) AC is significantly better for fuses and switching, as the 0V crossover allows arcs to self extinguish and 3) The largest load on the grid is AC induction motors, which are cheap and robust.

I do not foresee this being used in transmission lines because I²R losses aren't the big loss on them anyway, it's the inductive coupling between the phases.  I suppose one could argue that this material would allow lower voltages which would fix that.

Where this material could be promising is in applications that require high magnetic fields.  Fusion research, MRI and NMR machines, etc.

That said, and to 230RN's point, it would have been hard to predict the vast implications of Bell labs first transistor on the world.

[K Frame]

Power, current, arcs, ohms, amps, watts, gigahogsheads... beats the hell out of me.

No, I don't see it changing the overall structure of the grid, that's too large and too entrenched.

I do see it possibly changing the way people attach to, and use, grid power if it could be cost effectively rolled out to homes.

The same would be true if small, reasonably cost effective and reliable fuel cells ever come to market.

A fuel cell the size of a large outdoor AC condenser unit capable of producing enough power to supply a small house could be a true game changer for electric production and distribution.

[230RN]

Under the assumption that cold superconduction, or something near it is possible...

quote author=Nick1911 link=topic=68703.msg1408137#msg1408137 date=1690555736]
I'm assuming you mean power, not current.[/quote]

Thanks.

I do not foresee this causing significant changes to the electric grid.  It will stay AC because 1) there's way too much established infrastructure 2) AC is significantly better for fuses  (?-230RN) and switching, as the 0V crossover allows arcs to self extinguish and 3) The largest load on the grid is AC induction motors, which are cheap and robust.

There was an enormous infrastructure around tube technology also:  High voltage transformers in almost every household appliance, etc., CRT displays, etc.  The self-quenching zero crossing doesn't seem to affect much in terms of power arcing. 

https://youtu.be/_2LpCdhuOyQ (1:56)

https://youtu.be/bKD1wsBOo2M (1:30)

Once you've got an ionized path, crossing zero doesn't matter since the ions don't just disappear that quickly.

I do not foresee this being used in transmission lines because I²R losses aren't the big loss on them anyway, it's the inductive coupling between the phases.  I suppose one could argue that this material would allow lower voltages which would fix that.

Well I²R losses are exactly why transmission lines are high voltage... because since the V is higher, the I is lower, therefore dropping the power (heat) loss (P=I²R).

Where this material could be promising is in applications that require high magnetic fields.  Fusion research, MRI and NMR machines, etc.

And elevator motors, as I mentioned.

That said, and to 230RN's point, it would have been hard to predict the vast implications of Bell labs first transistor on the world.

Or the synthesis of Urea by Wohler in 1828, which destroyed the notion that some kind of "living energy" was required for what is now organic chemistry.

Or Röntgen's X-rays.

Terry. 230RN

[fifth_column]

Somebody is livestreaming their attempt to replicate the material:

https://www.twitch.tv/andrewmccalip

[Nick1911]

There was an enormous infrastructure around tube technology also:  High voltage transformers in almost every household appliance, etc., CRT displays, etc.  The self-quenching zero crossing doesn't seem to affect much in terms of power arcing. 

Once you've got an ionized path, crossing zero doesn't matter since the ions don't just disappear that quickly.

My experience with relays and switches is that the DC ratings are much, much lower than the AC ratings.  The self-quencing of the AC arc at contact open is my understanding of why this is true.  Am I misunderstanding something there?

Well I²R losses are exactly why transmission lines are high voltage... because since the V is higher, the I is lower, therefore dropping the power (heat) loss (P=I²R).

Indeed, and I'm pointing out that due to that, the resistive losses aren't very significant, which is why I don't see aluminum being replaced in transmission lines by this material.  It's not a big problem that needs solved.

[230RN]

My experience with relays and switches is that the DC ratings are much, much lower than the AC ratings.  The self-quencing of the AC arc at contact open is my understanding of why this is true.  Am I misunderstanding something there?


Indeed, and I'm pointing out that due to that, the resistive losses aren't very significant, which is why I don't see aluminum being replaced in transmission lines by this material.  It's not a big problem that needs solved.

The quenching effect is partially true.

But the actual  peak voltage in sine wave AC circuits is usually 1.414 times the usually quoted average voltage in the sine wave.  One hundred ten volts in your house actually peaks in the high part of the AC cycle at 1.414 X 110 = 155.5 volts.

So if a switching device has to handle AC, it has to be rated for that peak voltage (e.g., 110VAC X 1.414) , but it if handles DC, the rating is straightforward, that is, 110DC rating is 110 volts.

Working from 83 yo memory.  Corrections welcome.

"Indeed, and I'm pointing out that due to that, the resistive losses aren't very significant..."

As I pointed out, that's exactly why ultra-high voltages are used in transmission lines.  Reduction of the I.

Terry, 230RN

[Nick1911]

The quenching effect is partially true.

But Te actual  peak voltage in sine wave AC circtuits is usually 1.414 times the usually quoted average voltage in the sine wave.  One hundred ten volts in your house actually peaks in the high part of the AC cycle at 1.414 X 110 = 155.5 volts.

So if a switching device has to handle AC, it has to be rated for that peak voltage (e.g., 110VAC X 1.414) , but it if handles DC voltage, the rating is straightforward, that is, 110DC rating is 110 volts.

Working from 83 yo memory.  Corrections welcome.

That's true, but if you're suggesting that the difference in ratings is accounted for due to Vp-p of AC... wouldn't that result in a switch being able to handle DC better than AC?

I've got a random relay on my desk.  SRA-05VDC-CL.  Contact rating, 20A 125VAC (Yes, RMS...) or 20A 14VDC.

My posit is that the difference is due to the relative ease at which the AC arc extinguishes due to the zero cross, vs DC.

Sorry, but as I pointed out, that's exactly why ultra-high voltages are used in transmission lines.  Reduction of the I.

Terry, 230RN

I don't disagree, but I also don't see how that challenges my point.

[MechAg94]

Indeed, and I'm pointing out that due to that, the resistive losses aren't very significant, which is why I don't see aluminum being replaced in transmission lines by this material.  It's not a big problem that needs solved.

But those transmission lines are 138KV or something like that.  You need infrastructure at each end putting in or taking off power with big tall transmission towers.  If you could run the same power at 15KV or less with smaller wires, there would be less power distribution infrastructure needed.  The safety aspect of being able to use lower voltages would help even if high amp rates would still be an issue with breakers and disconnects.    You might be able to pass a lot of distribution power through low voltage systems instead of jumping to a high voltage transmission line. 

I am not saying they would start ripping out equipment in favor of new stuff, but new lines and high yards would be set up different.  I guess it all depends on the economics and safety aspects of the design.