Author Topic: Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? Amazon Ed.  (Read 1517 times)

WLJ

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 25,308
  • On Patrol In The Epsilon Eridani System
Re: Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? Amazon Ed.
« Reply #25 on: September 17, 2023, 10:48:55 AM »
Did any of these ever fire a shot en guerre during WWII?


The Meteor was used mainly intercepting V-1s.
The American jets none. P-59 was as I said earlier was a bit of a dog and never saw active combat service. The P-80 as far as I'm aware of none in WW-II though it did see active combat later in Korea. What we needed at the time was fighter-bomber/long range escorts and neither the 59 or 80, or anyone's early jets, fit that bill. Range on all early jets was a big issue.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2023, 11:08:03 AM by WLJ »
"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us".
- Calvin and Hobbes

K Frame

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 42,953
  • I Am Inimical
Re: Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? Amazon Ed.
« Reply #26 on: September 17, 2023, 11:46:17 AM »
Bong wasn't just the leading ace in the Pacific, he's the top US fighter ace of all time.
Carbon Monoxide, sucking the life out of idiots, 'tards, and fools since man tamed fire.

WLJ

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 25,308
  • On Patrol In The Epsilon Eridani System
Re: Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? Amazon Ed.
« Reply #27 on: September 17, 2023, 12:09:02 PM »
Bong wasn't just the leading ace in the Pacific, he's the top US fighter ace of all time.

One wonders if "Pappy" Boyington of  VMF-214 "Black Sheep" fame hadn't been captured what his final count could have been.

Now I want to read his book again, been decades.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2023, 12:25:55 PM by WLJ »
"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us".
- Calvin and Hobbes

HankB

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 16,205
Re: Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? Amazon Ed.
« Reply #28 on: September 17, 2023, 02:06:31 PM »
One wonders if "Pappy" Boyington of  VMF-214 "Black Sheep" fame hadn't been captured what his final count could have been.

Now I want to read his book again, been decades.
Probably not more than Bong's official 40 - US policy was to take the leading aces out of combat at some point and bring them home to sell war bonds. Also to deny potential propaganda value to the enemy if they shot down a leading American ace.
Trump won in 2016. Democrats haven't been so offended since Republicans came along and freed their slaves.
Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it. - Mark Twain
Government is a broker in pillage, and every election is a sort of advance auction in stolen goods. - H.L. Mencken
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it. - Mark Twain

230RN

  • It's like swimming to shore in an ebb tide.
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 18,494
  • Pushing back. Help me out, here...
Re: Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? Amazon Ed.
« Reply #29 on: September 17, 2023, 04:56:29 PM »
Bong and Marge in "Marge."
 

I was in a hobby shop a couple of years ago and found an assembly model of "Marge" and oscillated for about a half hour going back to it in the store, but finally decided not to get it.  Kick me, please.    You know where and I will offer that target willingly.



She sure was pretty.

Terry, 230RN

REF (For closure; the fate of the aircraft):
https://pacificwrecks.com/aircraft/p-38/42-103993.html
« Last Edit: September 17, 2023, 05:50:19 PM by 230RN »
Protecting our freedom is like swimming to shore in an ebb tide.

JTHunter

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,660
Re: Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? Amazon Ed.
« Reply #30 on: September 17, 2023, 11:05:45 PM »
The Germans had jets.

https://youtu.be/9A9TYoymCi0

They also had a rocket powered fighters.  I believe it was called the "Komet".
“I have little patience with people who take the Bill of Rights for granted.  The Bill of Rights, contained in the first ten amendments to the Constitution, is every American’s guarantee of freedom.” - - President Harry S. Truman, “Years of Trial and Hope”

JTHunter

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,660
Re: Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? Amazon Ed.
« Reply #31 on: September 17, 2023, 11:06:52 PM »
Rumor has it that the Germans did indeed have Fw-190s at Pearl Harbor but they were all shot down by F-14 Tomcats and that this has been kept secret.

This isn't "The Final Countdown".  :rofl:
“I have little patience with people who take the Bill of Rights for granted.  The Bill of Rights, contained in the first ten amendments to the Constitution, is every American’s guarantee of freedom.” - - President Harry S. Truman, “Years of Trial and Hope”

230RN

  • It's like swimming to shore in an ebb tide.
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 18,494
  • Pushing back. Help me out, here...
Re: Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? Amazon Ed.
« Reply #32 on: September 18, 2023, 01:55:37 PM »
They also had a rocket powered fighters.  I believe it was called the "Komet".

Which were used in combat and fired real bullets at "us."

Which supports my thesis that powerful German technological advances were put into actual "powder-burning" practice... and, looking back, these things, like the Paris gun, the V-2, the V-1, the Heavy Gustav, the proposed New York Bomber, the Goliath tracked mine, etc, etc, etc... were scary because of their fearless innovation..

We only beat them because of our massive production and transportation abilities.

Oh.  And General Patton.

Terry, 230RN

REFs (For items not previously mentioned):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goliath_tracked_mine

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silbervogel
« Last Edit: September 18, 2023, 02:09:46 PM by 230RN »
Protecting our freedom is like swimming to shore in an ebb tide.

MechAg94

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 33,078
Re: Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? Amazon Ed.
« Reply #33 on: September 18, 2023, 02:07:11 PM »
I thought I heard they were used to go after V-1 flying bombs. 

My understanding is the first jets were short ranged which may have hurt their opportunities to go into combat for the Allies as we were pushing fighters and bombers further out on attack rather than being on the defensive. 
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

K Frame

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 42,953
  • I Am Inimical
Re: Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? Amazon Ed.
« Reply #34 on: September 18, 2023, 02:40:29 PM »
"Which supports my thesis that German technological advances were put into actual "powder-burning" practice... and, looking back, these things, like the Paris gun, the V-2, the V-1, the Heavy Gustav, the proposed New York Bomber, the Goliath tracked mine, etc, etc, etc..."

For every "successful" "wonder weapon" there were perhaps a dozen or more that were absolutely mindless, endless resource sucks that did virtually nothing to enhance German's changes of winning the war and, in fact, hindered its war-winning potential. I put successful in quotes because virtually none of the wonder weapons programs were actually successful.

The Gustav is a perfect example. The damned things required two to four battalions to move them, set them up, fire them and protect them, not to mention the men and resources needed to build specially prepared rail tracks. Getting the gun read to fire could take literally weeks.

Then there was the Nazi "atomic weapons" program. Millions of Reichsmarks spent on a complete and total dead end.

Yes, the Germans did make some interesting technological advances, but as often as not they completely squandered them on ridiculous demands and expectations for them.

Carbon Monoxide, sucking the life out of idiots, 'tards, and fools since man tamed fire.

RocketMan

  • Mad Rocket Scientist
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 13,381
  • Semper Fidelis
Re: Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? Amazon Ed.
« Reply #35 on: September 18, 2023, 03:33:29 PM »
The German Me-262 did succeed in shooting down a fair number of our bombers over Germany.  And they were more than a match for our long legged P-51D fighters.  The mistake Hitler made was ordering the Me-262 to be converted into a bomber, a role for which it was very ill suited.
If he had left the Me-262 alone, not decreed that they become bombers, Germany would have put up a much better fight in the air.  I doubt they would have regained air superiority, but they certainly would have more strongly challenged the Allies over the air in Germany and gained more time for weapons development.
In the end, though, they would have ultimately lost the air war regardless of what wonder weapons were developed.
If there really was intelligent life on other planets, we'd be sending them foreign aid.

Conservatives see George Orwell's "1984" as a cautionary tale.  Progressives view it as a "how to" manual.

My wife often says to me, "You are evil and must be destroyed." She may be right.

Liberals believe one should never let reason, logic and facts get in the way of a good emotional argument.

WLJ

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 25,308
  • On Patrol In The Epsilon Eridani System
Re: Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? Amazon Ed.
« Reply #36 on: September 18, 2023, 03:38:22 PM »
The German Me-262 did succeed in shooting down a fair number of our bombers over Germany.  And they were more than a match for our long legged P-51D fighters.  The mistake Hitler made was ordering the Me-262 to be converted into a bomber, a role for which it was very ill suited.
If he had left the Me-262 alone, not decreed that they become bombers, Germany would have put up a much better fight in the air.  I doubt they would have regained air superiority, but they certainly would have more strongly challenged the Allies over the air in Germany and gained more time for weapons development.
In the end, though, they would have ultimately lost the air war regardless of what wonder weapons were developed.

I provided a link to a YT video where actual German docs showed Hitler had nothing to with the delay, the main issue was the engines, a issue that dogged everyone's early jets. If anything the 262 was actually push into service too soon but really what choice did the Germans have? We could wait, they couldn't. The early jets were too short legged to fit our needs anyway, we were taking the fight to the enemy not waiting for them to come to us. I've seen other sources that back this up but you can't get much better than reading from actual German war time docs.
"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us".
- Calvin and Hobbes

RocketMan

  • Mad Rocket Scientist
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 13,381
  • Semper Fidelis
Re: Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? Amazon Ed.
« Reply #37 on: September 18, 2023, 04:24:47 PM »
^^^  That's interesting as I have some books that make the case for Hitler ordering the conversion of Me-262s to the bomber role.  One of those things that makes one wonder.
If there really was intelligent life on other planets, we'd be sending them foreign aid.

Conservatives see George Orwell's "1984" as a cautionary tale.  Progressives view it as a "how to" manual.

My wife often says to me, "You are evil and must be destroyed." She may be right.

Liberals believe one should never let reason, logic and facts get in the way of a good emotional argument.

WLJ

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 25,308
  • On Patrol In The Epsilon Eridani System
Re: Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? Amazon Ed.
« Reply #38 on: September 18, 2023, 04:41:44 PM »
^^^  That's interesting as I have some books that make the case for Hitler ordering the conversion of Me-262s to the bomber role.  One of those things that makes one wonder.

Hitler did but that wasn't the main delaying factor, work had already begin on converting it anyway since they had to wait, the plane and engines just weren't ready yet. And even if it was it wouldn't have made much of a difference anyway. Don't get me wrong, the 262 deserves it's place in history as a great plane just this mystique has grown up around it that makes it out to be something it wasn't sometimes.

And on this blame Hitler for everything that went wrong subject. Much of our knowledge of the German side of the war has come from memoirs written by various generals with a common theme, it wasn't my fault it's was Hitlers. Recently many historians have start to rely more on actual war time docs many of which paint a different picture than some of memoirs written by generals and others to paint themselves with glory. Much of what Manstein wrote for example has been coming under question. Dead men tell no tales but the living write memoirs.
"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us".
- Calvin and Hobbes

230RN

  • It's like swimming to shore in an ebb tide.
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 18,494
  • Pushing back. Help me out, here...
Re: Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? Amazon Ed.
« Reply #39 on: September 18, 2023, 04:50:35 PM »
"Which supports my thesis that German technological advances were put into actual "powder-burning" practice... and, looking back, these things, like the Paris gun, the V-2, the V-1, the Heavy Gustav, the proposed New York Bomber, the Goliath tracked mine, etc, etc, etc..."

For every "successful" "wonder weapon" there were perhaps a dozen or more that were absolutely mindless, endless resource sucks that did virtually nothing to enhance German's changes of winning the war and, in fact, hindered its war-winning potential. I put successful in quotes because virtually none of the wonder weapons programs were actually successful.

The Gustav is a perfect example. The damned things required two to four battalions to move them, set them up, fire them and protect them, not to mention the men and resources needed to build specially prepared rail tracks. Getting the gun read to fire could take literally weeks. Underlinining mine.

"Yeah, but" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schwerer_Gustav  And thanks for supporting my premise as underlined.  They burned powder.

Perhaps in vain.  But they burned powder.

Quote
Then there was the Nazi "atomic weapons" program. Millions of Reichsmarks spent on a complete and total dead end.

Yes, the Germans did make some interesting technological advances, but as often as not they completely squandered them on ridiculous demands and expectations for them.

Once again, the bumbling of der Führer but this does not equate with lack of original ingenuity, which is my premise, so thanks again for confirming it.

Think: Everybody seems to want to confuse "not successful" with "not ingenious." 

Once again, their "unsuccessful" conceptions were carried through to operational uses.

They burned powder against the Allies.

Demurrals aside.


"Yes, the Germans did make some interesting technological advances, but as often as not they completely squandered them on ridiculous demands and expectations for them. " Bolding mine.

QED.  Notwithstanding ultimate failure.

I'm beginning to sound like a Nazi-lover here, but to be clear, I'm a Nazi Hater/Fearer, as supported by my original premise and supporting arguments.  Lest similarities occur ad infinitum.

Terry, 230RN

EDITED TO ADD: "He lost the fight, but Jesus, you gotta admire his left hook."  :rofl:
« Last Edit: September 18, 2023, 07:14:52 PM by 230RN »
Protecting our freedom is like swimming to shore in an ebb tide.

K Frame

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 42,953
  • I Am Inimical
Re: Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? Amazon Ed.
« Reply #40 on: September 18, 2023, 07:55:33 PM »
I didn't realize that "burning powder" was the pinnacle of evaluating whether a project was worth the effort and resources it consumed.

By your standard, apparently the Germans did win the war and that's why we're all closed Fascists.

I love how you link to the Wikipedia article on the Gustav as if it somehow supports your premise... a total of 47 rounds fired in anger during the war, with little actual, tangible impact in any of the actions to which it was fronted. My God, that is certainly how you win a war.

Those three completed guns consumed enough steel to manufacture something like 5,000 trucks, which would have had a far greater impact on the German's ability to wage war.

I never claimed that the Germans weren't clever. Their scientists were exceptional.

But what the Germans weren't was smart.

Along with the incredible waste of resources, the incredible amount of over engineering that went into some of their weapons systems was ludicrous.

The German theory was that a smaller number of more highly refined tanks would sweep the Russian steppes clean. Enter monstrosities like the Ferdinand.

The combat history of the King Tiger was equally sketchy, with it's actual combat effectiveness being swamped by the detrimental effect it had on the German ability to wage war.

What the Germans never understood until it was far too late in the war was that the Soviet model of simplicity combined with quantity was truly a war winning strategy.

I'm not sure why there's been something of a cult grow up around the German "wonder weapons" programs during World War II.
Carbon Monoxide, sucking the life out of idiots, 'tards, and fools since man tamed fire.