Author Topic: A Prelude to Taxing Unrealized Income?  (Read 348 times)

Ben

  • Administrator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 45,901
  • I'm an Extremist!
A Prelude to Taxing Unrealized Income?
« on: March 26, 2024, 06:50:40 PM »
Carol Roth (she's the greatest) did some digging into Biden's "documented" claim that the wealthiest Americans only pay an average of 8% income tax - much less than the middle class.

She read through the White House report and found that their computations to get the 8% included unsold stock. You have to wonder if it's a prelude by the deep state to forcing all of us to include unsold assets and unrealized gains as "income" for tax purposes in the future. The way they sell it as class warfare I'm sure the sheep would be fine with it. Then of course it's on to retirement savings not withdrawn in any retirement year as "income". Or appreciation on your home while you're still living in it (which they already do with property tax - so double tax).

https://twitchy.com/grateful-calvin/2024/03/26/carol-roth-thread-on-income-tax-rate-reality-versus-bidens-lies-n2394393
"I'm a foolish old man that has been drawn into a wild goose chase by a harpy in trousers and a nincompoop."

dogmush

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 13,758
Re: A Prelude to Taxing Unrealized Income?
« Reply #1 on: March 26, 2024, 07:14:39 PM »
They've been listing after unrealized gains for a couple years now.  They keep floating trial balloons about the evil rich "hiding" income by not actually getting it.

No word on whether or not unrealized losses can be credited.

sumpnz

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 8,319
Re: A Prelude to Taxing Unrealized Income?
« Reply #2 on: March 26, 2024, 07:19:53 PM »
I remember reading about wealth taxes (which is really what that is) 20+ years ago.

K Frame

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 44,149
  • I Am Inimical
Re: A Prelude to Taxing Unrealized Income?
« Reply #3 on: March 26, 2024, 07:44:08 PM »
You're just now realizing that this might be the plan after all?

Christ, I've been yelling about this for a couple of years and what it could lead to.

About time people start paying attention, for *expletive deleted*ck's sake.
Carbon Monoxide, sucking the life out of idiots, 'tards, and fools since man tamed fire.

zahc

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5,796
Re: A Prelude to Taxing Unrealized Income?
« Reply #4 on: March 26, 2024, 10:38:51 PM »
We already have wealth taxes. Just not on the richest people, and the federal government doesn't collect them.

There's nothing economically problematic with wealth taxes except they are taxes. We already tax income which is one of the worst things you can tax

There's a potential constitutional issue with the federal government levying wealth taxes because the constitution only authorizes them to tax income. This has been a disaster and it's why we have 22-30+% marginal income tax rates. And it makes it hard to tax the rich, because it's easy for the rich to make income disappear.
Maybe a rare occurence, but then you only have to get murdered once to ruin your whole day.
--Tallpine

sumpnz

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 8,319
Re: A Prelude to Taxing Unrealized Income?
« Reply #5 on: March 26, 2024, 10:47:16 PM »
I'd like to see a constitutional amendment overturning the 16th amendment and also barring all states (and subdivisions thereof) from levying ANY tax except for retail sales taxes.  The feds could also levy import duties.  That's it.

AZRedhawk44

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 13,950
Re: A Prelude to Taxing Unrealized Income?
« Reply #6 on: March 26, 2024, 11:00:12 PM »
I'd like to see a constitutional amendment overturning the 16th amendment and also barring all states (and subdivisions thereof) from levying ANY tax except for retail sales taxes.  The feds could also levy import duties.  That's it.

I hate to say it, but excise tax is more ethical than import tax.  Of course it all goes into a gorram slush fund that can be raided anyways, as opposed to run like a business based around revenues for particular services.
"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist."
--Lysander Spooner

I reject your authoritah!

zahc

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5,796
Re: A Prelude to Taxing Unrealized Income?
« Reply #7 on: March 26, 2024, 11:03:22 PM »
Federal tax policy needs completely reworked to be honest. It is overly reliant on income tax which is a major economic problem. Ron Paul made this point strongly and he wasn't wrong. Abolishing the 16th might be a good start just to force a change.
Maybe a rare occurence, but then you only have to get murdered once to ruin your whole day.
--Tallpine

Nick1911

  • Administrator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8,486
Re: A Prelude to Taxing Unrealized Income?
« Reply #8 on: March 26, 2024, 11:18:05 PM »
Here's something jacked up.  I've got a student that works commercial HVAC.  He makes about $25 per hour at his day job.  He wants to earn a little money on the side doing residential gigs.  If he plays it straight up honest, his tax rate on that extra money would be 22% Federal Income Tax, 12.4% social security (both sides), 2.9% medicare, 4.8% to the state of Missouri.  42.1% total income tax for someone making $50K a year that wants to bring in some extra money.

zahc

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 5,796
Re: A Prelude to Taxing Unrealized Income?
« Reply #9 on: March 26, 2024, 11:51:06 PM »
Same with my wife. Even if she gets a job making minimum wage, she will pay our joint tax rate, so starting from the very first dollar she earns, no deduction (because we take the deduction regardless) she will be taxed at 22%+. I would be better off to divorce her, then she would pay zero or negative income tax up to like 50k.
Maybe a rare occurence, but then you only have to get murdered once to ruin your whole day.
--Tallpine

sumpnz

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 8,319
Re: A Prelude to Taxing Unrealized Income?
« Reply #10 on: March 27, 2024, 12:03:39 AM »
I hate to say it, but excise tax is more ethical than import tax.  Of course it all goes into a gorram slush fund that can be raided anyways, as opposed to run like a business based around revenues for particular services.
Whatever.  As long as income, property, business, capital gains, estate, ad nauseum taxes goes away.

WLJ

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 28,044
  • On Patrol In The Epsilon Eridani System
Re: A Prelude to Taxing Unrealized Income?
« Reply #11 on: March 27, 2024, 08:08:54 AM »
The sooner you all realize it's all their money the sooner we can have that socialist paradise where the elites are eating caviar and everyone else is fighting over scraps in the elites trash.
"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us".
- Calvin and Hobbes

HankB

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 16,599
Re: A Prelude to Taxing Unrealized Income?
« Reply #12 on: March 27, 2024, 10:12:51 AM »
I'm waiting for them to bring back the idea of "imputed income" on your home - you see, by living in the home you own, you're not paying monthly rent . . . which for most homes in most parts of the county will be north (well north) of $1000/month.

Don't confuse this with real estate taxes, living rent-free is basically unrealized income according to some. And there are those who would LOVE to tax it.

I remember this abomination being floated over 20 years ago.
Trump won in 2016. Democrats haven't been so offended since Republicans came along and freed their slaves.
Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it. - Mark Twain
Government is a broker in pillage, and every election is a sort of advance auction in stolen goods. - H.L. Mencken
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it. - Mark Twain

sumpnz

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 8,319
Re: A Prelude to Taxing Unrealized Income?
« Reply #13 on: March 27, 2024, 10:44:13 AM »
I'm waiting for them to bring back the idea of "imputed income" on your home - you see, by living in the home you own, you're not paying monthly rent . . . which for most homes in most parts of the county will be north (well north) of $1000/month.

Don't confuse this with real estate taxes, living rent-free is basically unrealized income according to some. And there are those who would LOVE to tax it.

I remember this abomination being floated over 20 years ago.

That would be equivalent to taxing 401ks and IRAs in terms of firing up the people.

cordex

  • Administrator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8,605
Re: A Prelude to Taxing Unrealized Income?
« Reply #14 on: March 27, 2024, 12:04:21 PM »
That would be equivalent to taxing 401ks and IRAs in terms of firing up the people.
And as long as elections matter, that is an issue.

sumpnz

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 8,319
Re: A Prelude to Taxing Unrealized Income?
« Reply #15 on: March 27, 2024, 12:26:50 PM »
And as long as elections matter, that is an issue.

Truth

AZRedhawk44

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 13,950
Re: A Prelude to Taxing Unrealized Income?
« Reply #16 on: March 27, 2024, 07:18:05 PM »
I expect to see this as cryptocurrency becomes more and more valuable, particularly if the BRICS nations follow through with using Bitcoin rather than the USD as an international trade currency.  The current President of Argentina (a Libertarian!  Take that, Peronists!) has basically shut down most of the government and is attempting to stifle horrific inflation by migrating economic activity to the US dollar, while BTC adoption as a store of wealth is picking up heavily in the private sector down there.

Bitcoin is going to hit at least $150K in 2024 (currently flexing at $70k right now, 3 weeks before a major event called "The Halving" that will begin to swell its value more), and is forecast to hit anywhere from $1 million to $4 million by 2030.  There are a lot of "HODLers" out there from early on in Bitcoin's development, and have hundreds or thousands of BTC.  More interestingly, they don't measure their wealth in terms of USD.  They measure it in how many BTC they hold.  They don't live extravagantly, and only cash out a tenth of a coin here and there to get by through the year.  It's getting to the point where they only have to cash out a few hundredths instead, and possibly a few thousandths if it comes anywhere near that $1 million forecast for 2030.

"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist."
--Lysander Spooner

I reject your authoritah!

lee n. field

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 13,559
  • tinpot megalomaniac, Paulbot, hardware goon
Re: A Prelude to Taxing Unrealized Income?
« Reply #17 on: March 27, 2024, 09:26:28 PM »
I expect to see this as cryptocurrency becomes more and more valuable, particularly if the BRICS nations follow through with using Bitcoin rather than the USD as an international trade currency.  The current President of Argentina (a Libertarian!  Take that, Peronists!) has basically shut down most of the government and is attempting to stifle horrific inflation by migrating economic activity to the US dollar, while BTC adoption as a store of wealth is picking up heavily in the private sector down there.

Bitcoin is going to hit at least $150K in 2024 (currently flexing at $70k right now, 3 weeks before a major event called "The Halving" that will begin to swell its value more), and is forecast to hit anywhere from $1 million to $4 million by 2030. 

Was wondering what was behind the rise.

Quote
There are a lot of "HODLers" out there

So there's a term for it.  :-).  Still sitting on those from my son's estate.

f
Quote
rom early on in Bitcoin's development, and have hundreds or thousands of BTC.  More interestingly, they don't measure their wealth in terms of USD.  They measure it in how many BTC they hold.  They don't live extravagantly, and only cash out a tenth of a coin here and there to get by through the year.  It's getting to the point where they only have to cash out a few hundredths instead, and possibly a few thousandths if it comes anywhere near that $1 million forecast for 2030.
In thy presence is fulness of joy.
At thy right hand pleasures for evermore.

AZRedhawk44

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 13,950
Re: A Prelude to Taxing Unrealized Income?
« Reply #18 on: March 27, 2024, 11:57:46 PM »
Was wondering what was behind the rise.



It's also the approval of Bitcoin ETF's by the SEC earlier this year.

Normally there's a bit of a drawdown prior to a Halving.  And there's never a new all time high right before a Halving (which just happened last week).  Usually, about 12-18 months after a Halving you get a new all time high that is 4 to 8x the prior all time high.  Then there's a draw-down for a bit until the next Halving.

But, that's been purely with nothing but Anarcho-Libertarian hobbyists running the BTC market for the most part.  If you have big Wall Street money in it as well, demand increases considerably and remains constant.

Blackrock and Fidelity have publicly come out and recommended that anywhere from 1% to 5% of a customer's net worth should be in BTC, it's starting to displace gold (or at least augment it).  Privately, Blackrock has been rumored to be suggesting to their large customers to be more aggressive and consider up to a 28% allocation to BTC or other cryptocurrencies.  Saudis are hot on it, Hong Kong is hot on it, Euro markets are hot on it.

There are some VERY INTERESTING numbers coming out of people analyzing the crypto wallets (they're visible on the Blockchain) for Blackrock, Fidelity, and Grayscale funds.  Grayscale is losing customers right and left because of their fee structures, now that they have competition from Blackrock and others.  So they have high outflows which normally would tank the BTC market.  However, demand from the other ETF's is soaking that up and then some.  What's super suspicious is the fact that Blackrock and Fidelity seem to be in collusion on their heavy buy days.  If Blackrock sinks $500M into BTC, Fidelity has a 0 day.  And vice-versa.  The mining algorithm only allows for miners to produce 900 coins a day right now, and these orgs are sucking up 3500 to 8000 a day.  In mid-April, the miners will only be able to produce 450 coins a day (the Halving).

I don't think they can collude once Grayscale runs out of BTC holdings due to running out of bleeding customers (Grayscale accounted for about 50% of daily BTC available for sale).  That's 50% of supply, now take away another 5% due to the Halving.  Grayscale will stop selling either by policy change or running out of fleeing customers sometime in April or May, if they don't do it sooner.

The crypto market is out to displace gold's market cap in this BTC halving cycle (BTC has a market cap of $1.4 trillion, gold is about $12 trillion).  And it's probably out to take a big bite out of global finance (bonds, treasury bills, reserves) in the 2030's.

If you've got it, HODL.  If you don't got it... try and get a tenth of a BTC.  It's $7K right now, well spent IMO.

I'll be shocked if we aren't above $150k by end of summer, and I expect to see a rally to somewhere between $400k and $500k in 2025.  Then there will be doom and gloom in 2026 with a massive market retraction, BTC will shrivel to below $200k (maybe even to $100k) and then the 2028 rally and Halving will drive it over $1,000,000.
"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist."
--Lysander Spooner

I reject your authoritah!