Author Topic: From 2 vehicles to none in 1 hour.  (Read 6784 times)

AZRedhawk44

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Re: From 2 vehicles to none in 1 hour.
« Reply #25 on: April 17, 2024, 09:55:23 AM »
AZ, Is the spoke nipple OEM weird or what? Can't you just get a replacement from Buchanans or some other wheel builder?

Appears weird to me.  I was looking for alternative options to get the nipples but I can't find specs on them.  Dealer parts drone on  the phone didn't know the spec for the nipple.
"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist."
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AZRedhawk44

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Re: From 2 vehicles to none in 1 hour.
« Reply #26 on: April 19, 2024, 09:17:19 PM »
It's a tough week here.

So my XR was taken offline due to a warped rotor.  I ordered parts earlier this week and they arrived today.  I replaced the rotor and brakes, and made a couple other tasteful upgrades (better mirrors, a 30mm riser on the bars to make standing more comfortable) and went for a test ride to Ace Hardware about 3 miles from home... I noticed a missing bolt on my luggage rack and headed there to get a replacement.

On the way back home, my bike died a mile after leaving Ace.  There happened to be a gas station at that intersection, so I walked it into the gas station.  It was low on gas and maybe the pickup in the tank wasn't getting fuel, so I topped the tank off and sat there trying to kickstart it for awhile.  It would sputter and then make some metallic noises from the top end.  Not a good sign.  I seem to get odd resistance in the kickstarter as I cycle through the 4 stages of the piston's operations (suck squeeze bang blow), but I haven't isolated exactly which stage is getting the odd resistance.  Two valves for intake, two for exhaust, so my thinking is one of the two valves on one of the cycles is fubar, which would allow for the half-hearted attempts to start and the engine running for a few burbles and then dying.  Hopefully the metallic noises are pissy cam surfaces or valve springs/tappets rather than piston damage.  Sigh.

Back to 0 motorcycles, and now I have to decide if I'm going to tear down the XR600R and figure out whatever valve train damage/drama it has going on, or do I want to shift gears entirely and dive into a BMW F650GS Dakar I bought awhile back, that has a blown head gasket but does actually run (terribly).

No word on the spoke nipple I'm waiting on from the Aprilia dealer for my Tuareg.  I figure I'll call them Tuesday for an update (moto shops are closed Sun/Mon traditionally).

"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist."
--Lysander Spooner

I reject your authoritah!

Nick1911

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Re: From 2 vehicles to none in 1 hour.
« Reply #27 on: April 19, 2024, 10:32:56 PM »
I've recently gotten past an automotive headache.  I have a 1997 Honda CR-V.  Good little car, but has recently developed a bit of a stumble.  Figured I'd start with the basics - ignition parts.  They were old anyway, so even if not the problem, it's a good maintenance item to do.

Spark plugs usually usually break free then spin out easily.  These didn't.  I had to fight them out.  The first that came out clearly had aluminum smeared on the first couple threads.  Not sure what happened there.  Same on the next two.  They had been in there a while, the gap was way out of spec.

We'll never know what number 4 looked like, because it broke off.  The ceramic came out, but left the steel shell behind.  Down in the bottom of a hole, about 1 inch in diameter and 5 inches deep....

Well suck.  So I ordered Lisle part 65200, a deep hole plug repair kit for that thread size.

I drilled out the old steel shell,  then started threading the combination drill tap tool from the kit.  Which, once it started engaging, broke off down hole.   :facepalm:

So now I've got HSS stuck down there too.

Really didn't want to pull the head, so as a last ditch...

I the broken tap back out by slipping a piece of 1/2 ID cold roll steel tube down there, over the broken tap, and then slipping a 6011 down the middle of that and welding the tube to the broken tap, and turning the whole mess out.  I got lucky.  HSS does not weld nice.  It probably would have cracked apart as it cooled.

I bought a real tap of the appropriate size for the insert and used that to rethread.  I'v generally had good luck with Lisle tools, but that kit was terrible. 

Cylinder required some cleaning to get chips and debris out.  However the car is back on the road, so good enough.  Still has the same stumble though.

K Frame

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Re: From 2 vehicles to none in 1 hour.
« Reply #28 on: April 19, 2024, 11:03:40 PM »
"Still has the same stumble though."

Is it worse when it's cold and damp?

Could it be a crack in the high voltage coil block?

I ran into that with my 1997 Subaru. Once I figured out what was going on I pulled the ignition coil, cleaned it really well, and paved the cracked areas with JB weld.

Reassembled everything and it ran like a freaking champ until the day I got rid of it.

The other time it started to stumble on me was a right pain in the ass because it was a bugger to figure out.

It turned out to be the acoustic anti-knock sensor. All of a sudden it just started randomly deciding that my car was knocking up a storm and it would start messing with the timing to "cure" the knock.

Once I figured out what it likely was I had to order the part and then install it... which probably would have been easier had I hung upside down in the engine compartment from the hood. By my toes.

But once I got it plugged in... no more phantom knock problems.

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Nick1911

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Re: From 2 vehicles to none in 1 hour.
« Reply #29 on: April 19, 2024, 11:39:59 PM »
That's a good thought.  The coil is relatively new, but was not an OEM part, so that's certainly possible.  Off brand coils can be pretty bad.

At the moment I'm leaning towards the TPS, as it seems to happen at a particular percentage of throttle input.

K Frame

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Re: From 2 vehicles to none in 1 hour.
« Reply #30 on: April 20, 2024, 07:22:04 AM »
That's a good thought.  The coil is relatively new, but was not an OEM part, so that's certainly possible.  Off brand coils can be pretty bad.

At the moment I'm leaning towards the TPS, as it seems to happen at a particular percentage of throttle input.

MMmmmm yeah... if you could go ahead and have that TPS ready for us by the end of the day, that would be great...
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K Frame

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Re: From 2 vehicles to none in 1 hour.
« Reply #31 on: April 20, 2024, 07:24:55 AM »
And yeah, after market coils can be a real shitshow. Coworker of mine had that issue with his F150, which has a coil pack for each individual plug.

He put on an aftermarket set and within 6 months they were all failing in different ways.
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AZRedhawk44

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Re: From 2 vehicles to none in 1 hour.
« Reply #32 on: April 20, 2024, 11:51:52 PM »
Took an initial look at the BMW F650GS today.

Charged the battery for a few hours, then checked radiator and oil levels.  Topped off radiator and oil, then cranked the bike.  Labored start, but it started up.  Revved fine.  Puffs white smoke as expected, water in combustion.  Also getting a chocolate milkshake in the oil sight glass, indicating water in the oil.

However, I am NOT getting the same chocolate milkshake in the radiator when I open it.  Green tinted coolant, no murk or oil sheen.

I'm hoping to clear up enough room in my little shop to tear down the bike's top end tomorrow, hopefully to deliver the head to a machine shop for flatness check and valve servicing by Tuesday and to get a gasket from a BMW dealership.
"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist."
--Lysander Spooner

I reject your authoritah!

K Frame

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Re: From 2 vehicles to none in 1 hour.
« Reply #33 on: April 21, 2024, 08:19:58 AM »
"However, I am NOT getting the same chocolate milkshake in the radiator when I open it.  Green tinted coolant, no murk or oil sheen."

That's... odd.

When the head gaskets let go on my 1997 Outback I looked like I was throwing a Wendy's chocolate frosty party.
Carbon Monoxide, sucking the life out of idiots, 'tards, and fools since man tamed fire.

AZRedhawk44

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Re: From 2 vehicles to none in 1 hour.
« Reply #34 on: April 21, 2024, 07:34:41 PM »
"However, I am NOT getting the same chocolate milkshake in the radiator when I open it.  Green tinted coolant, no murk or oil sheen."

That's... odd.


Double-plus confirmed.  I drained the engine oil, got chocolate milk from both the oil reservoir (on top of the bike, it's a dry sump system) and from the bottom of the engine.  I drained the coolant, pristine green-blue coolant.  Either from the radiator, or from the drain/weep hole under the water pump.

I haven't finished tearing the top end of the engine down, I'm learning this bike as I go through it and taking photos of all electrical connections as I get deeper to make sure I can put it back together.  I've got the airbox, oil reservoir and battery off.  Throttle body is exposed, but not removed yet, I'm reading up on best ways to do this and minimize total parts removed and keep reassembly as simple as possible.  Hoping I can have the head off by tonight but it may not happen.
"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist."
--Lysander Spooner

I reject your authoritah!

AZRedhawk44

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Re: From 2 vehicles to none in 1 hour.
« Reply #35 on: April 22, 2024, 06:44:33 PM »
So that tear-down was a bear.  I don't think I want to do that ever again.  I even had to half-disconnect the rear subframe from the main frame, and I'm probably going to have an interesting time reconnecting that when the time comes.

I'm still unsure exactly how you wind up getting water in the oil but no oil in the water... all I can come up with is a pressure differential where oil flows at lower pressure through its various channels, but water hits higher pressure due to temperature and phase change to gas. 

All my rebuild gaskets are ordered, and routine consumables.  Probably a week for shipping for all of it.

I still haven't found a place to have the head checked out though.
"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist."
--Lysander Spooner

I reject your authoritah!

Kingcreek

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Re: From 2 vehicles to none in 1 hour.
« Reply #36 on: April 22, 2024, 07:24:40 PM »
Yeah it’s sounding like a one way failure. A gasket could maybe do that?
Keep us posted. I love this troubleshooting stuff if it’s other people’s problems.
I’m still dealing with my issues. $1500 so far and not as much fun.
Front brakes are dragging when warmed up. Thought for sure they overfilled the brake fluid but doesn’t look like it. Front wheel bearings seem fine to me (68k miles), no ABS light since brake work. Front wheels only mildly hot compared to rears but there is definite resistance somewhere when I coast to a stop. And my usual 16mpg dropped to 11 but is now 13. ???
Crazy busy with no time to actually pursue this right now.
What we have here is failure to communicate.

K Frame

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Re: From 2 vehicles to none in 1 hour.
« Reply #37 on: April 23, 2024, 08:38:22 AM »
Did you find any evidence of where it was leaking when you pulled the head off.

I've never heard of a 1-way leak before, but I supposed that it's possible...
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dogmush

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Re: From 2 vehicles to none in 1 hour.
« Reply #38 on: April 23, 2024, 09:10:51 AM »
I've seen one way leaks before.  It sometimes depends on how much oil pressure is at the spot of failure, and how much pressure the water pump/high temp it putting out.

If a head gasket goes into the combustion chamber, it's almost always two way, because champer pressure is always higher than coolant and when you shut down the engine, coolant pressure is always higher than crankcase.  If the gasket leaks between an oil passage and a water passage wierder things can happen.

Also, if you change the fluids (to check for a leak) and don't run it very much after that, it's more likely you will get a one way leak, because you didn't necessarily run it through all variations of differential pressure and oil viscosity.

Finally, and I hope this doesn't end up prophetic for Redhawk:  Cracked heads almost always leak water into the oil, but no oil into the water, because the pressurized water is going into the intake tract, where there is little to no pressurized oil, and when you shut the engine down, the coolant leaks past the piston rings into the pan (or sump pick-up in this case) to be mixed up next time the oil pump turns on.

AZRedhawk44

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Re: From 2 vehicles to none in 1 hour.
« Reply #39 on: April 23, 2024, 01:59:26 PM »
Did you find any evidence of where it was leaking when you pulled the head off.

I've never heard of a 1-way leak before, but I supposed that it's possible...

Yep.  Back side of the cylinder, probably where heat is highest.  I see marks on the gasket where the breach happened, between water cooling channels around the cylinder jacket and the cylinder itself.  I had crystal-clear blue coolant in the piston when I opened it.  Rings seem good, water isn't leaking through piston.

I've seen one way leaks before.  It sometimes depends on how much oil pressure is at the spot of failure, and how much pressure the water pump/high temp it putting out.

If a head gasket goes into the combustion chamber, it's almost always two way, because champer pressure is always higher than coolant and when you shut down the engine, coolant pressure is always higher than crankcase.  If the gasket leaks between an oil passage and a water passage wierder things can happen.

Also, if you change the fluids (to check for a leak) and don't run it very much after that, it's more likely you will get a one way leak, because you didn't necessarily run it through all variations of differential pressure and oil viscosity.

Finally, and I hope this doesn't end up prophetic for Redhawk:  Cracked heads almost always leak water into the oil, but no oil into the water, because the pressurized water is going into the intake tract, where there is little to no pressurized oil, and when you shut the engine down, the coolant leaks past the piston rings into the pan (or sump pick-up in this case) to be mixed up next time the oil pump turns on.

I'm having a hard time following the bolded bit here.  In my case, coolant is escaping the coolant channels either by suction of the piston, or by pressure of water vapor as the cylinder warms the coolant.  It is entering the cylinder and being vaporized more by combustion, escaping as water vapor in the exhaust.  It is not leaking through the piston rings as far as I can tell, because I had standing water in the cylinder on top of the piston once I reached that point of the tear-down.

Are you suggesting that the coolant moving upwards from the block to the head could have cracked the head and that is the source of water in the oil?  Coolant seeping through a crack in the head into the cam area is how I'm getting mixing of water into oil but not in reverse?  How do I check a cylinder head for cracks?  Can I have such a thing happen and ALSO have my clear breach of the cylinder gasket as I have visually seen?
"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist."
--Lysander Spooner

I reject your authoritah!

dogmush

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Re: From 2 vehicles to none in 1 hour.
« Reply #40 on: April 23, 2024, 02:07:47 PM »

I'm having a hard time following the bolded bit here.  In my case, coolant is escaping the coolant channels either by suction of the piston, or by pressure of water vapor as the cylinder warms the coolant.  It is entering the cylinder and being vaporized more by combustion, escaping as water vapor in the exhaust.  It is not leaking through the piston rings as far as I can tell, because I had standing water in the cylinder on top of the piston once I reached that point of the tear-down.

Are you suggesting that the coolant moving upwards from the block to the head could have cracked the head and that is the source of water in the oil?  Coolant seeping through a crack in the head into the cam area is how I'm getting mixing of water into oil but not in reverse?  How do I check a cylinder head for cracks?  Can I have such a thing happen and ALSO have my clear breach of the cylinder gasket as I have visually seen?

No.  I was describing one of the other common ways you get water in the oil, but not oil in the water.  A cracked head (or cylinder liner in some designs) will leak coolant into the intake tract (or cylinder), which will be burned as you described (assuming it's not a big enough leak to put out the spark).  but when you shut the engine off, the cooling system is still pressurized for a while and sprays coolant into the cylinder through the crack.  This coolant can leak past the rings and get in the oil.  That's how you get a one way leak.  The "I hope it's not prophetic" part was me hoping your head isn't cracked, and that's not the cause of the one way leak.  Which it sounds like it iasn't, so thumbs up there.

Kingcreek

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Re: From 2 vehicles to none in 1 hour.
« Reply #41 on: April 23, 2024, 05:58:46 PM »
Per post #36.
I took it back today and told them I drive it 5 miles home and had mildly hot front brakes. Fine when cold but starts to drag when it warms up. It coasted just fine this morning when cool.
The floor manager (family owned chain of 5 locations) looked really puzzled. They flushed the lines and changed brake fluid. Came out after an hour and said I need both front calipers.
The mechanic swears they were working when it left the shop and no explanation how they could both fail in the first 5 miles.
I told them that something smells bad and it’s not just the hot brakes. I said put it together and if I can limp home with it, I’ll decide what I do with it.
I’m going to at least argue the labor cost because they had it all apart. I met one of the owners when they first opened and I might give him a call. Seemed like a straight up guy.
I’m not liking the idea of another $460 for calipers and $435 for the wheel bearing hub assembly on top of the $1500 brake work last week.
What we have here is failure to communicate.

dogmush

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Re: From 2 vehicles to none in 1 hour.
« Reply #42 on: April 23, 2024, 06:24:11 PM »
They don't know what's wrong, and are throwing parts at it to see what sticks.


To be fair, I've done that myself, but only with the Army's part budget.

AZRedhawk44

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Re: From 2 vehicles to none in 1 hour.
« Reply #43 on: April 23, 2024, 09:34:35 PM »
Spoke nipples came in for my Aprilia Tuareg's front wheel today.  I rushed over to the dealership to pick them up, then rushed the wheel over to the local wheelsmith, and he said he can have it done by tomorrow.

If that holds true, I can have the repaired rim and tire over to the actual tire shop to be remounted by Thursday, and I can have a bike again by Thursday evening!

I might even be able to put the XR600 in the middle of the garage and tear into its heart to find out what went wrong with it, while waiting on parts for the BMW.  Dare I hope to have THREE functional motorcycles at one time?!?
"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist."
--Lysander Spooner

I reject your authoritah!

K Frame

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Re: From 2 vehicles to none in 1 hour.
« Reply #44 on: April 24, 2024, 07:03:54 AM »
Well, AZ has a cracked head, but that's an entirely different problem... :rofl:
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Cliffh

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Re: From 2 vehicles to none in 1 hour.
« Reply #45 on: April 24, 2024, 08:47:31 PM »
Per post #36.
I took it back today and told them I drive it 5 miles home and had mildly hot front brakes. Fine when cold but starts to drag when it warms up. It coasted just fine this morning when cool.
The floor manager (family owned chain of 5 locations) looked really puzzled. They flushed the lines and changed brake fluid. Came out after an hour and said I need both front calipers.
The mechanic swears they were working when it left the shop and no explanation how they could both fail in the first 5 miles.
I told them that something smells bad and it’s not just the hot brakes. I said put it together and if I can limp home with it, I’ll decide what I do with it.
I’m going to at least argue the labor cost because they had it all apart. I met one of the owners when they first opened and I might give him a call. Seemed like a straight up guy.
I’m not liking the idea of another $460 for calipers and $435 for the wheel bearing hub assembly on top of the $1500 brake work last week.

Tail light warranty?  Seems if they did a brake job and it crapped out that soon, they should absorb at least some of the cost.  And shouldn't the parts have some kind of warranty on them?

Kingcreek

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Re: From 2 vehicles to none in 1 hour.
« Reply #46 on: April 25, 2024, 12:25:35 AM »
The front calipers were not replaced. Rotors and pads and front hoses were replaced.
Now the mechanic says the calipers are bad.
I talked to one of the owners today. Good conversation, nice guy. He apologized, thanked me for bringing it to his attention, and said there would be no labor charge if they do the calipers. He is going to look at the pictures and video pre work also. He didn’t have an answer for why my rears had to be replaced with only about 12k miles on them. I don’t drive in heavy traffic or high speeds. And I put new calipers and hoses on at the same time. The reason for that work was a caliper actually failed and the piston shattered and tore hell out of the rotor so I did complete incl ebrake pads.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2024, 11:33:09 PM by Kingcreek »
What we have here is failure to communicate.

Cliffh

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Re: From 2 vehicles to none in 1 hour.
« Reply #47 on: April 25, 2024, 08:59:52 PM »
The owner sounds like a good man. 

Sucks you've got to go through this.

AZRedhawk44

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Re: From 2 vehicles to none in 1 hour.
« Reply #48 on: April 25, 2024, 10:49:52 PM »
I haz one bike.  >:D

Life is much better than it was yesterday and the previous two weeks.  Aprilia is operational again.  Rim truing came out very well.

BMW's cylinder head is definitely warped, but not cracked, according to the machine shop I dropped it at.  Also has a faulty exhaust valve preventing full vacuum/seal.  They should be done with it by Monday or Tuesday of next week.  Reassembly is likely to be slower than disassembly though; I'm going to need to clearance the valves on assembly and I don't have any of the 29mm shims this bike uses.  I'm trying to not buy a $125 box of all available shim sizes.  The local Kawasaki shop has 29mm shims and has a $5 trade deal, bring in your shim and $5 to get whatever size you want.  At worst I'm out $20 if I need 4 that way, but it'll slow my reassembly since I will have trouble getting to them in evenings when I'm likely to be working on the bike, and my weekends are spoken for the next couple of weeks.  Still stewing on maybe just eating the $125 for a box of shims, just for the convenience factor.

Haven't torn into the Honda yet.  I might start into it Sunday, but I don't really even want to start unless I am committed to having funds to fix it.  With the acreage purchase coming up in May, it's probably wiser to hold off until that is finalized.  The Honda can take the cobweb collector role that the BMW had for awhile... and I'm not likely to ride the Honda in the Arizona summer since it's air cooled anyways.

And honestly... I've got to focus on the brakes of our two 4-wheeled machines.  Alexis needs brakes changed and lines bled on her Subaru Forester, and my Jeep could stand the same.  I've done motorcycle brakes recently but it's probably been 10+ years since I've done car brakes, so I told her I'd practice on the Jeep first before taking her car offline.  I can get by with a motorcycle (if I have one!) while the Jeep is on jackstands if anything odd comes up... she cannot, and doesn't like driving my Jeep either.
"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist."
--Lysander Spooner

I reject your authoritah!

dogmush

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Re: From 2 vehicles to none in 1 hour.
« Reply #49 on: April 26, 2024, 06:57:17 AM »
If you have an air compressor,  and bleed brakes even semi regularly,  I highly recommend a pneumatic brake bleeder. $50 well spent.