Credit cards and photo ID (sorry!)

[yhtomit]

First: A few quick searches don't reveal to me that this topic has been raised before; if it has, I'd really appreciate a link to the discussion, and I apologize in advance for the redundancy.

Now, the meat: I've heard over the years several conflicting things about credit cards; without listing the whole range of absolutely indisputable, 100pct and incontestably true facts (many of which don't fit in the same universe of possibilities), my question is this:

Do merchants who accept credit cards (I'm specifically thinking of American Express, but would enjoy a compare / contrast session, if there are differences, involving the other major ones) have the right to routinely check photo ID under the terms of their merchant agreements? My long-time understanding (I read it on the innernets and it sounded well backed and true, but I don't have handy a link to whatever page / pages I read this on) is that No, they don't -- that a valid card (that is, one that is successfully authorized) with a valid signature (that is, one that is on the back of the card and can be reproduced by the holder) *is* the form of ID they can check. Further, I've heard that a merchant who refuses to accept this deal by insisting on looking at "state issued Photo ID" (or whatever ID they think acceptable) can be fined; the amount I read about was $2,000. If that's a made up number, it's made up -- but it's the amount that was named

Personally, I dislike showing photo ID (dislike having it, generally, but that's an issue I won't grouse too much about in this thread), and I dislike reliance on misguided, idiotic "store policy" reasons. (Here, too, better rants than mine are out there, brimming with thoughts like "Since when are grocery clerks experts on determining the authenticity of credit cards *or* other things in my wallet?")

However, after an angry, time-wasting "confrontation" the other day in a grocery store (they must have plenty of business to treat my custom as completely expendable), I seek counsel:

Can anyone point me to definitive information that says I'm right? (Or that I'm just a time-wasting idiot, essentially what the grocery store manager maintained). That she was wearing a full veil (eyes only visible) made me wonder exactly what looking at photo ID would allow a clerk to confirm in *her* case, but ... eh, a useless digression.

Now, you might say, "Why not just ask the credit card company?" Good point; I've tried a few times, and decided they seem to have an attitude of intentional opaquery; I think it's a fairly straightforward question, but it's one they refuse to acknowledge is understandable. "Perhaps that's just a store policy," I've been told. "But that isn't what I'm asking," I try to explain. "I'm asking whether they in fact have agreed to terms which forbid them from asking that." This usually gets an answer of "Perhaps that's just a store policy."

From people who have posted their own stories on this topic online, some store managers have conveyed something along the lines that they are authorized to ask for ID *only* if a card is not signed.

So, before I go completely nuts, can anyone shed some light on this?

Thanks!

timothy

[Paddy]

If it ain't cash, it's just a promise to pay at some future date, whether it be check or credit card.  The photo ID check really protects the credit card company from fraudulent/stolen use and charges.  (and also protects you from the hassle should that happen).  Why is showing a driver's license such a big deal?

[Bogie]

I'm guessing you've never had a credit card stolen...

Mine all say, in BIG letters on the back "CHECK ID!"
 
I thank the counter monkeys who ask for my license.
 

[Fly320s]

Timothy,

I have no idea of the answer to your questions, but I do like the term intentional opaquery.  

Sidetrack:

I always write "check ID" on the back of all my credit and debit cards.  My ID only gets checked about 10% of the time, though.  When the ID is verified, I have no trouble paying with my CC or debit card.  

When I was in Mexico recently, I paid for my meal with a CC and then signed the bill, as is usual.  The waiter then asked me to sign another copy of the bill, so I did.  He told me that my signatures don't match each other and therefore he could not accept the CC.  Even after I showed him my ID he didn't want to accept the CC.  His reason was that since there is so much corruption in Mexico, matching signatures provide better security than a possibly false ID.  Funny.

[K Frame]

I can't even remember the last time a counter donkey checked my ID, much less the back of my card.

[wmenorr67]

When I was in Mexico recently, I paid for my meal with a CC and then signed the bill, as is usual.  The waiter then asked me to sign another copy of the bill, so I did.  He told me that my signatures don't match each other and therefore he could not accept the CC.

So your signature on the bills were different enough or the signature didn't match the signature on the card?

[MechAg94]

Most of the stores I go to have the CC reader on my side of the counter.  The clerk rarely even lays a hand on the card. 

[Thor]

Check the terms on debit cards. There was a news article here in Mn about those folks who wrote "check ID" on their debit cards. It seems that without a signature, those cards could be and have been refused. It's best to have both a signature and a "check ID" on the back. (Like they give enough room for all that) 

[Vodka7]

I forget the term for it, but basically, a credit card should be accepted the same as cash, no ID necessary.  Signing the back isn't even necessary, as it basically just means that you agree to the CC company's terms of use.  Nothing to do with the merchant.

That said, your card is being swiped by minimum wage earners who are only following whatever idiotic policy the bosses have set up that week, so good luck having them do the right thing.

[Jamisjockey]

I say a business has the right to refuse service.  Don't show ID, get out!

My CC just got hit to the tune of $529.99.  I've never complained about showing ID, and never will.

[jcpershing]

I, probably like many on this board, have a deep objection to being forced to do anything  in particular by a monopolistic organization using the veiled threat of force  a government.  So being forced to show ID by said government (as in by the federally employed TSA) isnt designed to produce warm and fuzzy feelings. And for me the ID, being state issued, carries that bad taste with it wherever it goes. 

But using a credit card at a merchant (after having it issued to you by a bank) is a voluntary transaction at every step.  They can do whatever they like to try to reduce fraud.  And youre free at any point to pick up your card and say, Nope, I dont show ID to merchants, Ill do business elsewhere.  From the sound of your original question (saw it on the internet, but cant verify) it doesnt seem likely that this is in the contracts.  But Ive been wrong before . . .

And yes, I too have the obligatory fraud story.  Card info was copied by a desk clerk while checking into a hotel.  Card was used later that morning to charge nearly a grand - I didnt notice it till checking out.  Never caught the thief, but it HAD to have happened at the hotel, I hadnt used the card other than checking in for many months.  Since I put it all together while standing at the hotel desk, on the phone with the card, and the manager in front of me, he figured it out too.  Happy ending  as the manager realized the thief was at the hotel, I was never charged for the two room suite for the week-long stay.   

Regardless of the hassle, I always thank the checkers for asking to see my ID. 

[Nick1911]

Although Visa rules do not preclude merchants from asking for cardholder ID, merchants cannot make an ID a condition of acceptance. Therefore, merchants cannot refuse to complete a purchase transaction because a cardholder refuses to provide ID. Visa believes merchants should not ask for ID as part of their regular card acceptance procedures.

From "Rules for Visa Merchants", page 29.

I'm not sure about other types of card, as I exclusively use Visa.

[Ben]

Gotta go with the majority on this one. I hate the idea of "papers please" as much as anyone else, but the credit card is a voluntary means of monetary transaction -- the bank doesn't force me to get one, I apply for it. I've also been hit with false charges in the past, even though I am always careful with CC use. I actually appreciate when someone verifies I am who I am when I'm spending a bunch of dough on something. If I want to have a relatively traceless transaction, I'll pay cash.

[Fly320s]

So your signature on the bills were different enough or the signature didn't match the signature on the card?

After I paid my bill and signed the receipt, the waiter then checked my signed receipt against my signature on the back of my Visa.  Since I hadn't signed my Visa, instead I had written "check ID," the waiter had me sign another receipt in front of him and then checked both of those against my driver's license.  Those two signatures didn't match the one on my driver's license.  That's normal for my scrawled signature, especially considering that the DL signature was done on an electronic pad.

[Wild Bill]

Wow, didn’t know I was a “counter monkey” or a “counter donkey” just for running a retail business, but either as an ape or an ass (your choice ) I, and all those who work for me, check ID every time.  The sole exception is the picture cards that make ID verification that much easier.

Regardless of Visa’s rules, a fraudulent use will leave our shop out both the goods and the cash. Not in the plan folks. Don’t like me asking … door’s fifteen feet behind you.

[K Frame]

Relax. I've done more than my fair share of counter donkeying over the years -- gun shops, family owned bookstore, etc.

[Wild Bill]

All's well Mike - didn't take it that way at all (hence the smilie). 

Working with the public in any capacity requires a thick skin or a short career. It'll take a better shot than that to even scratch. 

Of course if I had to choose I think I'd take the monkey route.  It implies a modicum of intelligence at least. 

[Chris]

I'm guessing you've never had a credit card stolen...

Mine all say, in BIG letters on the back "CHECK ID!"
 
I thank the counter monkeys who ask for my license.
 

Glad to hear I'm not the only one doing this!  And, yes, I have had a card stolen, and learned the lesson the hard way.