Author Topic: Bush the Patsy-part deux  (Read 21584 times)

Paddy

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Re: Bush the Patsy-part deux
« Reply #125 on: September 11, 2007, 02:32:22 PM »
It's a difference in realities.  I think longeyes lives in L.A. which is freaking inundated with illegals.  Rabbi is insulated down in 10 uh C.  Rabbi doesn't have 20 illegals living in the house next door and 10 more in the garage.  There aren't abandoned crap cars all over the streets left there because they quit running.  Shootings  and stabbings haven't reached peak levels.  There aren't chimichanga carts being pushed up and down the streets.  Hell, I'd wager his local McDonalds doesn't even have the hamburguesa menu posted in Espanol yet.

But it's coming.

drewtam

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Re: Bush the Patsy-part deux
« Reply #126 on: September 11, 2007, 02:50:57 PM »
Why do you guys tie legal immigrant cultural woes, illegal immigration woes, and less regulated international shipping policies?

I think your throwing the baby out with the bath water.

Drew
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longeyes

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Re: Bush the Patsy-part deux
« Reply #127 on: September 11, 2007, 03:13:13 PM »
Rabbi, I'm sure there were Chinese arguing that smoking opium was a consumer right not to be interfered with.  And there are plenty of people who know how to turn a profit on anything, be it ever so repugnant. 
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longeyes

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Re: Bush the Patsy-part deux
« Reply #128 on: September 11, 2007, 03:17:11 PM »
Quote
Why do you guys tie legal immigrant cultural woes, illegal immigration woes, and less regulated international shipping policies?

I think your throwing the baby out with the bath water.

Maybe I'm tired of drinking bathwater and being told it's from Olympian wells?
"Domari nolo."

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Monkeyleg

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Re: Bush the Patsy-part deux
« Reply #129 on: September 11, 2007, 05:35:47 PM »
What exactly is this thread about?

The Rabbi

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Re: Bush the Patsy-part deux
« Reply #130 on: September 11, 2007, 05:38:51 PM »
What exactly is this thread about?

About six pages too long.
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Paddy

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Re: Bush the Patsy-part deux
« Reply #131 on: September 11, 2007, 06:44:51 PM »

This thread is about the NAFTA Superhighway deniers (like Rabbi).........
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=57175

The NAFTA Superhighway is taking shape as the Trans Texas Corridor
http://www.corridorwatch.org/ttc/index.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans-Texas_Corridor
and dissolves whatever miserable shred is left of U.S. Border 'security'.

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Re: Bush the Patsy-part deux
« Reply #132 on: September 12, 2007, 03:33:58 AM »
I've never denied the NAFTA superhighway.  I am pretty sure it does exist, at least in plans.
I do deny it will result in the end of civilization as we know it.
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longeyes

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Re: Bush the Patsy-part deux
« Reply #133 on: September 12, 2007, 05:35:19 AM »
Quote
I've never denied the NAFTA superhighway.  I am pretty sure it does exist, at least in plans.
I do deny it will result in the end of civilization as we know it.

You're right, it won't, now do you want the grande or super-grande chimichanga?

American civilization has changed markedly, in all ways, since the Reagan amnesty of some 20 years ago.  People who have experienced the metamorphosis at close range can tell you whether the change was positive.  What I can tell you, as someone who has lived in the California "test bed" most of my life, is that California, once great, is in serious decline and likely to become a "Little Venezuela."  You are seeing the creation of plantation economics up close here.  If you are really ready to write off California as part of America, fine, but ponder carefully before you do because this process is not going to stop with California.   
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Bogie

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Re: Bush the Patsy-part deux
« Reply #134 on: September 12, 2007, 06:48:13 AM »
Campers, I seem to recall that about 60 years ago, people were highly upset about "those Italians."

And before that, it was the Irish...
 
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Re: Bush the Patsy-part deux
« Reply #135 on: September 12, 2007, 07:13:47 AM »
Campers, I seem to recall that about 60 years ago, people were highly upset about "those Italians."

And before that, it was the Irish...
 


And the Chinese (The Yellow Peril).
And the Germans. etc etc.
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auschip

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Re: Bush the Patsy-part deux
« Reply #136 on: September 12, 2007, 07:18:43 AM »
Quote
I've never denied the NAFTA superhighway.  I am pretty sure it does exist, at least in plans.
I do deny it will result in the end of civilization as we know it.

You're right, it won't, now do you want the grande or super-grande chimichanga?

American civilization has changed markedly, in all ways, since the Reagan amnesty of some 20 years ago.  People who have experienced the metamorphosis at close range can tell you whether the change was positive.  What I can tell you, as someone who has lived in the California "test bed" most of my life, is that California, once great, is in serious decline and likely to become a "Little Venezuela."  You are seeing the creation of plantation economics up close here.  If you are really ready to write off California as part of America, fine, but ponder carefully before you do because this process is not going to stop with California.   

I don't want the Chimichanga today, but I do think I might head over to get some Pho (In little Vietnam as a matter of fact).  I did have a breakfast taco this morning though.   rolleyes

The Rabbi

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Re: Bush the Patsy-part deux
« Reply #137 on: September 12, 2007, 07:24:08 AM »
I bought some Tecate cerveza last night.  It was OK, nothing great.

Yes, America has changed in 20 years since Reagan.  In the 1980s it had changed remarkably from the 1960s.  The 1960s were nothing like the 1940s.

Your point again was what exactly?
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Paddy

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Re: Bush the Patsy-part deux
« Reply #138 on: September 12, 2007, 09:01:37 AM »
Campers, I seem to recall that about 60 years ago, people were highly upset about "those Italians."

And before that, it was the Irish...
 


And the Chinese (The Yellow Peril).
And the Germans. etc etc.

They immigrated here legally.  They established permanent residences and business.  They didn't return to their countries of origin to vote.  They didn't send most of their earnings back to those countries.  They learned English, they were pround that their children were Americans, etc. et yada. They came here to become Americans.  That used to mean something.

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Re: Bush the Patsy-part deux
« Reply #139 on: September 12, 2007, 09:16:37 AM »
Well, no.
Look up "paper son" sometime.
They learned English, after a generation or two.
They certainly sent money home.  My great-grandfather did so regularly.

blah blah...falling on deaf ears....blah blah....
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Paddy

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Re: Bush the Patsy-part deux
« Reply #140 on: September 12, 2007, 09:51:31 AM »
Theodore Roosevelt's ideas on Immigrants and being an AMERICAN

"In the first place, we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the person's becoming in every facet an American, and nothing but an American ... There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag ... We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language ... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people."

"Let us say to the immigrant not that we hope he will learn English, but that he has got to learn it. Let the immigrant who does not learn it go back. He has got to consider the interest of the United States or he should not stay here. He must be made to see that his opportunities in this country depend upon his knowing English and observing American standards. The employer cannot be permitted to regard him only as an industrial asset.

"We must in every way possible encourage the immigrant to rise, help him up, give him a chance to help himself. If we try to carry him he may well prove not well worth carrying. We must in turn insist upon his showing the same standard of fealty to this country and to join with us in raising the level of our common American citizenship.

"If I could I would have the kind of restriction which would not allow any immigrant to come here unless I was content that his grandchildren would be fellow-citizens of my grandchildren. They will not be so if he lives in a boarding house at $2.50 per month with ten other boarders and contracts tuberculosis and contributes to the next generation a body of citizens inferior not only morally and spiritually but also physically."

Using the motto "America for Americans" for all Americans, whether they were born here or abroad, the former President declared that "the salvation of our people lies in having a nationalized and unified America, ready for the tremendous tasks of both war and peace."

Col. Roosevelt said he came to St. Louis to speak on Americanism  to speak of and condemn the use of the hyphen "whenever it represents an effort to form political parties along racial lines or to bring pressure to bear on parties and politicians, not for American purposes, but in the interest of some group of voters of a certain national origin or of the country from which they or their fathers came."

He was equally against the native American of the wrong kind and for the immigrant of the right kind, the former President declared, but the immigrant who did not become in good faith an American "is out of place" in the United States. He said each nation should be judged by its conduct and that the United States should oppose encroachment on its own rights, whether Germany, England, France or Russia be guilty of misconduct.

"I believe in nationalism as the absolute prerequisite to internationalism. I believe in patriotism as the absolute prerequisite to the larger Americanism. I believe in Americanism because unless our people are good Americans first, America can accomplish little or nothing worth accomplishing for the good of the world as a whole."

There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism. When I refer to hyphenated Americans, I do not refer to naturalized Americans. Some of the very best Americans I have ever known were naturalized Americans, Americans born abroad. But a hyphenated American is not an American at all.
This is just as true of the man who puts native before the hyphen as of the man who puts German or Irish or English or French before the hyphen. Americanism is a matter of the spirit and of the soul. Our allegiance must be purely to the United States. We must unsparingly condemn any man who holds any other allegiance.
But if he is heartily and singly loyal to this Republic, then no matter where he was born, he is just as good an American as any one else.
The one absolutely certain way of bringing this nation to ruin, of preventing all possibility of its continuing to be a nation at all, would be to permit it to become a tangle of squabbling nationalities, an intricate knot of German-Americans, Irish-Americans, English- Americans, French-Americans, Scandinavian- Americans, or Italian-Americans, each preserving its separate nationality, each at heart feeling more sympathy with Europeans of that nationality than with the other citizens of the American Republic.
The men who do not become Americans and nothing else are hyphenated Americans; and there ought to be no room for them in this country. The man who calls himself an American citizen and who yet shows by his actions that he is primarily the citizen of a foreign land, plays a thoroughly mischievous part in the life of our body politic. He has no place here; and the sooner he returns to the land to which he feels his real heart-allegiance, the better it will be for every good American.
Addressing the Knights of Columbus in New York City
12 October 1915

"The effort to keep our citizenship divided against itself," the colonel continued, "by the use of the hyphen and along the lines of national origin is certain to a breed of spirit of bitterness and prejudice and dislike between great bodies of our citizens. If some citizens band together as German-Americans or Irish-Americans, then after a while others are certain to band together as English-Americans or Scandinavian-Americans, and every such banding together, every attempt to make for political purposes a German-American alliance or a Scandinavian-American alliance, means down at the bottom an effort against the interest of straight-out American citizenship, an effort to bring into our nation the bitter Old World rivalries and jealousies and hatreds."

In a Fourth of July speech in 1917, Roosevelt urged the adoption of linguistic uniformity, including a requirement that all foreign-language newspapers published in the U.S. should also include English translations.

Touching on the matter of language, Col. Roosevelt declared that "We must have in this country but one flag, and for the speech of the people but one language, the English language. During the present war all newspapers published in German, or in the speech of any of our foes, should be required to publish, side by side with the foreign text, columns in English containing the exact translation of everything said in the foreign language. Ultimately this should be done with all newspapers published in foreign languages in this country."

Likewise, on 27 May 1918, Roosevelt urged in a speech at Des Moines, Iowa, that English be the sole language of instruction used in American schools.


NEW YORK, Jan. 6.  What was the last public statement by Col. Roosevelt was read last night at an "All-American concert" here under the auspices of the American Defense society, of which he was honorary president.

"I cannot be with you and so all I can do is to wish you Godspeed," it read. "There may be no sagging back in the fight for Americanism merely because the war is over.

"There are plenty of persons who have already made the assertion that they believe the American people have a short memory and that they intend to revive all the foreign associations which more directly interfere with the complete Americanization of our people. Our principle in this matter should be absolutely simple.

"In the first place we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here does in good faith become an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with every one else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed or birthplace or origin. But this is predicated upon the mans becoming in very fact an American and nothing but an American.

"If he tries to keep segregated with men of his own origin and separated from the rest of America, then he isn't doing his part as an American.

"We have room for but one flag, the American flag, and this excludes the red flag which symbolizes all wars against liberty and civilization just as much as it excludes any foreign flag of a nation to which we are hostile. We have room for but one language here and that is the English language, for we intend to see that the crucible turns our people out as Americans, and American nationality, and not as dwellers in a polyglot boarding house; and we have room for but one soul [sic] loyalty, and that is loyalty to the American people."

The Rabbi

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Re: Bush the Patsy-part deux
« Reply #141 on: September 12, 2007, 09:52:12 AM »
<yawn>
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Paddy

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Re: Bush the Patsy-part deux
« Reply #142 on: September 12, 2007, 09:53:11 AM »
Quote
blah blah...falling on deaf ears....blah blah..

It's difficult to see and hear when your head's buried in the sand.


The Rabbi

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Re: Bush the Patsy-part deux
« Reply #143 on: September 12, 2007, 09:57:44 AM »
Quote
We live on a continent whose three countries possess the assets to make it the strongest, most prosperous and self-sufficient area on Earth. Within the borders of this North American continent are the food, resources, technology and undeveloped territory which, properly managed, could dramatically improve the quality of life of all its inhabitants.

It is no accident that this unmatched potential for progress and prosperity exists in three countries with such long-standing heritages of free government. A developing closeness among Canada, Mexico and the United States -- a North American accord -- would permit achievement of that potential in each country beyond that which I believe any of them -- strong as they are -- could accomplish in the absence of such cooperation. In fact, the key to our own future security may lie in both Mexico and Canada becoming much stronger countries than they are today.

No one can say at this point precisely what form future cooperation among our three countries will take. But if I am elected President, I would be willing to invite each of our neighbors to send a special representative to our government to sit in on high level planning sessions with us, as partners, mutually concerned about the future of our continent. First, I would immediately seek the views and ideas of Canadian and Mexican leaders on this issue, and work tirelessly with them to develop closer ties among our peoples. It is time we stopped thinking of our nearest neighbors as foreigners.

By developing methods of working closely together, we will lay the foundations for future cooperation on a broader and more significant scale. We will put to rest any doubts of those cynical enough to believe that the United States would seek to dominate any relationship among our three countries, or foolish enough to think that the governments and peoples of Canada and Mexico would ever permit such domination to occur. I, for one, am confident that we can show the world by example that the nations of North America are ready, within the context of an unswerving commitment to freedom, to see new forms of accommodation to meet a changing world. A developing closeness between the United States, Canada and Mexico would serve notice on friends and foe alike that we were prepared for a long haul, looking outward again and confident of our future; that together we are going to create jobs, to generate new fortunes of wealth for many and provide a legacy for the children of each of our countries. Two hundred years ago, we taught the world that a new form of government, created out of the genius of man to cope with his circumstances, could succeed in bringing a measure of quality to human life previously thought impossible.

Now let us work toward the goal of using the assets of this continent, its resources, technology, and foodstuffs in the most efficient ways possible for the common good of all its people. It may take the next 100 years, but we can dare to dream that at some future date a map of the world might show the North American continent as one in which the people's commerce of its three strong countries flow more freely across their present borders than they do today.
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Paddy

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Re: Bush the Patsy-part deux
« Reply #144 on: September 12, 2007, 10:26:33 AM »
Uh-huh. From the guy who caved in the first time.  At least Reagan had the balls to call it what it was-AMNESTY.  GWB denies it's AMNESTY.  And unlike GWB, Reagan's AMNESTY had conditions, residency requirements, no felony convictions, less than three misdemeanor convictions, medical examinations, etc.  It didn't grant citizenship, only temporary residence. 

There is no equivalence. And GWB is damn sure no Ronald Reagan, either.   laugh


drewtam

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Re: Bush the Patsy-part deux
« Reply #145 on: September 12, 2007, 05:27:49 PM »
People who have experienced the metamorphosis at close range can tell you whether the change was positive. 

I can tell you that the Mexicans came into Joliet (near Chicago) and built business and are in the process of revitalizing a crap hole of a gang warfare depressed 'urban' area. As far as I can see, they are doing a magnificent job, and are building up that community. More power to 'em. Absolutely freakin' positive change.

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Perd Hapley

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Re: Bush the Patsy-part deux
« Reply #146 on: September 12, 2007, 05:41:17 PM »
I thought the discussion was about illegals, not Mexicans. 
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auschip

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Re: Bush the Patsy-part deux
« Reply #147 on: September 13, 2007, 05:46:15 AM »
I thought the discussion was about illegals, not Mexicans. 

Nope, the OP was about Mexican trucks delivering in the US. 

longeyes

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here's the result of 25 years of deifying diversity - in today's L.A. Times
« Reply #148 on: September 13, 2007, 06:26:00 AM »
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-language13sep13,0,2795081.story?coll=la-home-center
From the Los Angeles Times

Not at home with English
A new census report says 43% in the state and 53% in L.A. speak a different language in their private lives.
By Anna Gorman and David Pierson
Los Angeles Times Staff Writers

September 13, 2007
Bienvenidos. Huan ying. Dobro pozhalovat.

In California, "welcome" is more of an international affair than ever -- with nearly 43% of residents speaking a language other than English at home, according to data released Wednesday by the U.S. Census Bureau. The trend was even more pronounced in Los Angeles, where more than 53% of residents speak another language at home.

Spanish is by far the most common, but Californians also converse in Korean, Thai, Russian, Hmong, Armenian and dozens of other languages.

The census numbers are likely to fuel a decades-long debate in California over immigrants continuing to use their native tongue. There have been battles over bilingual education, foreign-language ballots and English-only restrictions on business signs.

While immigration is the driving force for the state's linguistic diversity, experts said people often speak another language out of choice rather than necessity.

Some do so to get ahead professionally, while others want to maintain connections with their homelands.

"In this century, there's going to be so much interaction with China, economically, socially and culturally," said Monterey Park real estate agent Lisa Yang, who insists on speaking Mandarin with her U.S.-born daughter, Melissa Hsu, even on the phone.

Yadira Quezada, 30, speaks mostly English at work, where she coordinates an after-school program for elementary students in Los Angeles.

But at home, she speaks only Spanish. She and her husband are fluent in English, but they don't want their four sons to lose their Spanish or to sound like "gringos" when they speak it.

"When they say something in English, we act like we don't understand," Quezada said. "We say, 'No entiendo.' "

But she acknowledges that the bilingual world her family has chosen -- mostly English during work and school, mostly Spanish at home -- can be confusing. "I am thinking in English and Spanish at the same time," she said.

Because California has strong ties to Asia and Latin America, some language experts believe the loyalty to native tongues has advantages.

"It really represent huge assets for California in the global economy," said Randy Capps, senior research associate at the Urban Institute, a think tank based in Washington, D.C.

The downside is that many people who speak other languages at home are not proficient in English -- making them more likely to earn low wages and live in poor neighborhoods, Capps said.

Among people living below the poverty line, 56% speak a language other than English in the home, compared with 41% for those above the poverty line, according to the census report.

"Isolation is problematic," said Lane Ryo Hirabayashi, chairman of UCLA's Department of Asian American Studies. "While it reflects the strong ties to the home country, it also suggests that folks in this situation are inherently more cut off from society and less able to participate and take advantage of opportunities here."

And the isolation is also felt by some English speakers living in areas where foreign languages are prevalent. Dental office administrator Mia Bonavita, 39, recently moved from San Diego to Monterey Park, where business at many stores is done in Chinese. Bonavita says the language barrier is difficult.

"I feel like an outsider," she said. "It's difficult to get to know your neighbors."

The linguistic diversity also affects the schools, where educators struggle to meet students' needs.

In the Los Angeles Unified School District, there are more than 265,000 English learners who speak 91 languages. The district has a special translation unit, but must rely on parents and community members for some languages.

Southern California has numerous ethnic enclaves where speaking English is not a necessity, including parts of the San Gabriel Valley, Little Saigon, East L.A. and Koreatown. And some residents there say the lack of English hasn't diminished their lives.

Michael Yang said through an interpreter that he left Taiwan for the U.S. in 1984 and still barely speaks any English. The 58-year-old signed up for classes last year, but quit soon after because he was too embarrassed to learn alongside students a third his age.

Not surprising to some, his lack of English has not hindered his everyday life in the heavily Chinese San Gabriel Valley, he says.

Yang owns a popular video store filled with the latest hits from Asia that serves Chinese speakers almost exclusively. His everyday needs like dining and shopping are done in Chinese businesses and all the websites and newspapers he reads are in Chinese.

On the other end, Atour Jebraiel speaks Assyrian, Armenian, English, bits of Japanese and he's learning Spanish.

The hotel chef from Glendale pledged to speak English well when he emigrated from Iran in 1994. He's accomplished that.

But he said nothing beats speaking his native languages at home with his wife.

"The humor is different in Assyrian and Armenian," said Jebraiel, 42. "I use it in normal life: shopping, conversation with friends and joking around. English is for work, telephone calls and talking to neighbors."

He said it's easy to live in such a way in Glendale, where so many Armenian Americans trace their roots to Iran. "You could speak Armenian here all the time if you wanted to," Jebraiel said. "Everyone shares the same culture."

The data are part of a census report on social, economic and housing characteristics in the U.S. Nationwide, almost 20% of people over age 5 spoke a language other than English at home in 2006.

Some smaller Southern California communities recorded even higher percentages than Los Angeles, including East L.A. (91%), El Monte (83%), Santa Ana (83%), Alhambra (71%), Oxnard (67%), Garden Grove (67%) and Glendale (64%). The statewide percentage of 43% is up slightly from data from a few years ago.

Lisa Yang, 60, was born in China and grew up in Taiwan and moved to the U.S. in 1969. Now fluent in English, she ran an unsuccessful campaign for Monterey Park City Council last year, one in which she said she was able to connect with more voters by being able to switch between Chinese and English.

Yang sent her daughter to a Chinese church in Alhambra to study Mandarin and followed that up with Chinese classes during summer breaks from Stanford.

Hsu, her 24-year-old daughter, said she didn't appreciate the value of the classes when she was young. But since marrying a Taiwanese American man whose family does not speak English, she has relied on her Chinese to communicate with her in-laws.

"My parents forced me to go to Chinese school," she said. "I knew it was because it would be handy in the future. Now I see it's really coming in handy."

She described herself as "mildly fluent" in Mandarin. Most important, "I can order in a restaurant," she said.

anna.gorman@latimes.com

david.pierson@latimes.com

Times staff writers Doug Smith and K. Connie Kang contributed to this report.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Bush the Patsy-part deux
« Reply #149 on: September 13, 2007, 12:06:10 PM »
I thought the discussion was about illegals, not Mexicans. 

Nope, the OP was about Mexican trucks delivering in the US. 

So, either way, drewtam's comment was off-topic.
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