Whatcha think of the Swiss?Racist or not?

[Joe Demko]

"Switzerland for the Swiss!"  Why not?  It's their country, let them run it as they see fit.  I have no great admiration for the Swiss in any case.

[longeyes]

It is not about race or ethnicity, it IS about culture and values (and the accomplishments those values led to).  The modern world, politically and technologically, is formed on Euro-American values and especially on Anglo-American values.  You can dislike modernism but you can't argue against the facts of what got us here.

[cordex]

RileyMC,
Let's cut to the chase. 
1. In what ways are "white" folks superior to "non-white" folks?  Genetically?  Socially?  Spiritually?
2. What achievements do you credit whitey with?
3. If you give credit to melanin-deficient humans for their contributions to modern society, do you also hold them accountable for their various failings in modern society?  Or is that all the fault of the "mud people"?

[onions!]

Hey now!

I just thought that the policy of,after a pre-determined time,the immigrants' peers voting yea or nay on citizenship was pretty kool.

[Paddy]

RileyMC,
Let's cut to the chase. 
1. In what ways are "white" folks superior to "non-white" folks?  Genetically?  Socially?  Spiritually?
2. What achievements do you credit whitey with?
3. If you give credit to melanin-deficient humans for their contributions to modern society, do you also hold them accountable for their various failings in modern society?  Or is that all the fault of the "mud people"?

Race is not the determining factor; culture is.  By 'culture', I mean a set of values, ideas, beliefs,attitudes and language common to a group of people populating any particular geographical area.  It is not 'racism' to judge some cultures superior to others.  I think you would agree that the western cultures of industrialized countries, although they are different from each other (language, religion, politics, etc.) are nonetheless superior to any third world tribal culture.

Why? Simply quality of life.  In third world countries (cultures) more people die from water borne disease than any other cause.  In industrialized western countries (cultures) water borne disease is almost never an issue, but if it does happen is treatable.

In many tribal societies, women and girls are considered property and/or valued no more than, say, cattle. Forced female genital mutilation is an accepted practice.  Some cultures prescribe 'honor killings' of their daughters for 'disgracing' the family by unapproved behavior.

And the list could go on and on.

As every individual has an inherent right to self defense, also each culture has a right to preserve and protect itself from destructive interference.  You can think of this as 'freedom of association' if you like. This is not racism; the fact that the other culture (from whom disassociation is desireable) is predominantily of a different race is incidental.

The true 'racists' are the race baiters; the guilt ridden liberals(and others) who consider 'minorities' inferior and thus entitled to special treatment.  They are the ones who constantly shout 'racism' where none exists in an effort to continue the myth that one race is inferior to another.

[HankB]

On cultural superiority . . .

Which way are people migrating - from some stinking pestilential turd world hellholes to the West, or the other way around?

Even if you consider advanced nations . . . are more people migrating from the Orient to the West, or are more Westerners moving to the Far East?

Are more people moving from North America to Europe, or to North America from Europe?

Consider migration patterns . . . superior cultures are attractive . . . inferior cultures are not.

(No races were named in this posting.)

[cordex]

Riley,

If your argument were about culture, why reference skin color?

[longeyes]

2. What achievements do you credit whitey with?

Uh, I don't know...Renaissance, Scientific Revolution, The Enlightenment, Industrial Technology, you typing on your computer on the internet.

When you figure out where these things came from and how and why, the "debate" can continue.

[De Selby]

Sometimes you do-witness the international movement against apartheid.  Sovereignty should not be a blanket defense for racism or similar fundamentally savage practices.

SS:

I am sure this was not your intent, but you have pretty much provided a "blanket defense" for colonialism by the civilized nations of all the not-so-civilized.

No, I haven't, but not based on the idea-going to other lands to improve their lots is okay in my book.  Unfortunately, despite the occasional rhetoric, that was never the aim of colonization.  Colonialism in practice is simply the same old savagery, carried out by more technologically advanced means. 

If you can find me an example of a colony that was not designed to rob people of their resources and force them to obey, please do. 

[De Selby]

2. What achievements do you credit whitey with?

Uh, I don't know...Renaissance, Scientific Revolution, The Enlightenment, Industrial Technology, you typing on your computer on the internet.

When you figure out where these things came from and how and why, the "debate" can continue.

How come no one counts "living in a country free from savage racism" as an achievement?

If it were not for the long struggle and sacrifice on the part of non-whites, we'd all probably still be living in countries that doled out privileges and rights on the basis of skin color; how backwards and utterly sinister is that? 

There's one contribution that's undeniable: because of the hard work of non-whites, we live in a more civilized world.

Or does combating racism, slavery, and all the things that came with racism not count as an achievement for civilization?

[Manedwolf]

shootinstudent, I suggest you read up on India's caste system...which exists to this day.

[De Selby]

shootinstudent, I suggest you read up on India's caste system...which exists to this day.

I know something of it-what's the connection you're drawing?

[Paddy]

Riley,

If your argument were about culture, why reference skin color?

I didn't interject race into this discussion; I just bounced it back to the guy who did.

[Tuco]

I never understood their camo pattern

[longeyes]

Or does combating racism, slavery, and all the things that came with racism not count as an achievement for civilization?

It counts.  Too bad there's still so much racism and slavery in the "non-white" parts of the globe today.  Or is that the white man's fault too?

[The Rabbi]

Silly Swiss. To be properly European these days, you have to allow your country to be overrun by groups that absolutely will not assimilate and would rather try to change their new home to be like their old home that they fled from.

Sounds like the stuff you read about Californians on THR.

Mostly offered by smug rubes who've never been here (thankfully).  Wait til the next Dem Pres & Congress come along, about 2009 by my reckoning.  We'll see how well the so-called 'free states' escape that anti gun onslaught.

Wow.  That wins the "Non-sequitur of the week award"

Anyway, by definition, any decision-making process that uses race as a factor is racist.  So I guess the Swiss system is racist, de facto if not de jure.
The next question is whether that is a bad thing or not.

[longeyes]

Of course, racism is a bad thing.  Too bad the tribalists who comprise so many of the new wave of immigrants have no trouble with it.

[lacoochee]

What the hell, have to jump in somewhere... 

What the Swiss are doing is not racist, if anything it's "culturalist", they want to preserve what they feel is paradise on earth.  I am sure that they would feel the same way about any group coming into their country, say for example the people of Vermont are invaded by Canadians looking for another source of maple syrup and they all flee to Switzerland, I am quite certain a few hundred thousand dispossessed Vermont-(ians?) would be just as unwelcome. 

[beaucoup ammo]

(1) Our youngest daughter has lived and worked in Zurich for three years. Been over once. Military service is mandatory for the Swlss..and you get to keep your weapon! http://www.swissrifles.com/sig550/index.html

Shooting is the National Pass Time and we've attended some great competitions!

[doczinn]

Sounds like the stuff you read about Californians on THR.

Mostly offered by smug rubes who've never been here (thankfully).

And mostly correct anyway.

[cordex]

2. What achievements do you credit whitey with?

Uh, I don't know...Renaissance, Scientific Revolution, The Enlightenment, Industrial Technology, you typing on your computer on the internet.

What have all those folks done for us lately?

When you figure out where these things came from and how and why, the "debate" can continue.

You make three interesting assumptions in that statement.

[Perd Hapley]

Not to take either side, but I think those saying that Whitey invented all the good stuff are talking about cultural, not racial, superiority.  Those are two very different ideas.  We all agree that American culture or Mexican culture is better than, say, NAZI culture.   

Such an understanding would really change the debate.  For instance, would the contributions of Martin Luther King, Jr. be a contribution of white or non-white culture?  How much was he inspired by "white" influences like the Declaration of Independence or Bill of Rights, and how much by "Oriental" influences like Ghandi's ideas?  And would his Christianity be a "white" influence?  Or would it also be "Oriental"?  Maybe we shouldn't try to break down culture into racial groups.


Best comment so far:

The policy as written is not racist.  It may be arguable that some of the people who have the power to vote on the policy might be bigots, but this goes back to my tirade on you can't legislate people into being good.

[Iain]

Best comment so far:

The policy as written is not racist.  It may be arguable that some of the people who have the power to vote on the policy might be bigots, but this goes back to my tirade on you can't legislate people into being good.

Which underlines the idea about true democracy being a vote between two wolves and a sheep as to what is for dinner.

On Friday I was in a meeting with relatively recent immigrant to the UK. Had immigration been a decision of local peoples there are two historical and present good reasons why he might not have been accepted. He's black and he's a paraplegic. He paid some taxes here during his working life, and after his accident he chose to come here to live permanently.

For the Mail brigade he could easily have been a symbol of all that is wrong, but in reality he daily makes a huge contribution to local issues particularly on matters of disability.

[Paddy]

Anyway, by definition, any decision-making process that uses race as a factor is racist.  So I guess the Swiss system is racist, de facto if not de jure.

Not if race is incidental to culture, which seems to be what the Swiss are doing.  An example of state sponsored racism would be affirmative action, for example, where race is the only criteria.

[The Rabbi]

Anyway, by definition, any decision-making process that uses race as a factor is racist.  So I guess the Swiss system is racist, de facto if not de jure.

Not if race is incidental to culture, which seems to be what the Swiss are doing.  An example of state sponsored racism would be affirmative action, for example, where race is the only criteria.

That sounds like a difference without a distinction.  I couldn't tell you what would happen if a Black American or Canadian wanted to become a Swiss citizen.
And yes, affirmative action is racist.