Author Topic: Why vote for anybody but Ron Paul?  (Read 84474 times)

Bigjake

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Re: Why vote for anybody but Ron Paul?
« Reply #50 on: September 15, 2007, 06:12:42 PM »
Quote
And yet in at least one online poll, Dr. Paul has been regarded as the winner or at least as placing high in various debates.

You have to be kidding me....

I'd LOVE a libertarian canidate to pop up and be everything good about the libertarian party.  Ron Paul is not your man and 08' is not your year.

Ron Paul reminds me why I haven't bothered to change party affiliation yet. How's the Free State thing going, anyway??

Sergeant Bob

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Re: Why vote for anybody but Ron Paul?
« Reply #51 on: September 15, 2007, 07:05:58 PM »
Why is it that so many of Ron Paul's fans insist on referring to him as "Dr. Paul"? Do they feel that it adds legitimacy to his candidacy or something? There are other "Doctors" in congress who are not referred to by that title, since they are not practicing in that capacity.
If he were elected to the office of President (and the Cubs won the World Series), would he be called Dr. President Ron Paul? Or President Dr. Ron Paul?
Personally, I do not understand how a bunch of people demanding a bigger govt can call themselves anarchist.
I meet lots of folks like this, claim to be anarchist but really they're just liberals with pierced genitals. - gunsmith

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Manedwolf

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Re: Why vote for anybody but Ron Paul?
« Reply #52 on: September 15, 2007, 07:50:48 PM »
How's the Free State thing going, anyway??

Let's see.

One of them was just arrested for something, I forget what.

One made a total ass of themselves about a year ago by marching into the Keene IRS office in a straw hat with a pitchfork (apparently, since they just moved here, that was their stereotype of NH residents) and demanded that taxes were unlawful. This both puzzled and annoyed the police officer who apprehended them and the working professionals walking around outside the office.

Two others were arrested in Manchester for disorderly conduct, and when they were being read their rights, screamed that the Manchester city police officers were "just like the Nazis arresting the Jews".

A bunch helped derail "stand your ground" by marching into the capitol right before voting on it and making a big show of declaring the dozen-plus open-carried weapons each had, giving the antis plenty of photos and examples of "gun nuts". The bill was vetoed by the democrat governor.

Others tried to push through a measure to use state funds to finance a hemp-growing initiative. That fell on its ass, thankfully.

And I see "FREE STATERS GO HOME" bumper stickers on cars, since the best way to piss off a real northern New Englander is to be a carpetbagger newcomer who comes in and tries to tell them how things should be done.

We don't want them here. Period. They've done nothing but act like a bunch of spoiled hippies, and have screwed up everything they've shoved their nose into.

K Frame

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Re: Why vote for anybody but Ron Paul?
« Reply #53 on: September 15, 2007, 07:54:04 PM »
Read the title below his name, Len. That should give you all of the information that you need regarding the capacity in which Gewehr is acting.




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Manedwolf

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Re: Why vote for anybody but Ron Paul?
« Reply #54 on: September 15, 2007, 10:50:22 PM »
Adding: another Free State person just got arrested. Wow, they're all gonna be in jail. She was trying to get into the Browns' compound...the tax cheats.
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Lauren Canario, 51, a Keene-area resident and a member of the Free State Project, approached the partial barricade around 2:30 p.m. yesterday, U.S. Marshal Steve Monier said.

"She drove up to the checkpoint and was warned at least three times by the deputies that she could not proceed to the Browns ', and the last time she got out of the vehicle and tried to walk past us, so she was arrested," Monier said at the Lebanon police station, where he was using office space yesterday.

Euclidean

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Re: Why vote for anybody but Ron Paul?
« Reply #55 on: September 16, 2007, 12:21:00 AM »
I love this thread.

Not one solid criticism of Ron Paul's platform or candidacy has been made.  Three pages.  Yeah it's my fault too, I got side tracked chasing rabbits.

We've argued about the war, who should get to vote, what an online poll may or may not mean, the new Iraqi government, and the Free State project.  That's all good discussion, but none of these have anything to do with Ron Paul's campaign really, beyond the first issue. 

But not one solid criticism.  Just cryptic comments like "Ron Paul Zombies", "You make me regret voting for him", and "He's not the man in 2008" which express opinion but don't do anything to solidly criticize his running platform.  The opposition to the man's candidacy seems to be based on some unspoken emotional objection more than anything.

I'm tired of voting for the lesser of two evils.  Another Bush/Kerry decision is not what I want.  For a change I'm going to support the candidate whose platform is the best I've seen available for the election in question.  This candidate makes the most sense to me, no one has told me any good reason not to support his candidacy, and even when I've opened it up to informed, opinionated people, I still have no answer to the question "Why vote for anybody but Ron Paul?"

Maybe the question is not a good question.  Feel free to answer who you are voting for instead, and why.  Even if Dr. Paul doesn't get the nomination, I still want to minimize the damage the '08 elections will inflict.

Ron

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Re: Why vote for anybody but Ron Paul?
« Reply #56 on: September 16, 2007, 04:36:56 AM »
We have made commitments and promises to friends and allies, including the Iraqis.

Ron Paul would have us ignore those promises and retreat to a "fortress" America foreign policy that would leave many allies at the mercy of their (our) enemies.

In the sausage factory of US legislation small steps are taken in the direction of the philosophy of whichever party has the majority. In typical libertarian fashion Ron Paul shows his contempt for the American people by declaring he wants to undue in big fell swoops what the people have done through their representatives over many years.

It is a shame the Republican Liberty Caucus was/is such an ineffectual organization. If the libertarians want to change government it will be in small steps and small changes brought about by congresscitters who share libertarian ideals. That requires the American people being educated and wanting them instituted by voting in people who hold those ideals.

Ron Pauls myopic foreign policy views (while tempting in a nationalistic way) are not based in the real world of geopolitics. If elected he would have to abandon all his libertarian ideals and deal with the reality on the ground. I prefer to vote for someone who has already put some serious thought into their foreign policy before they got elected.

Barbara

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Re: Why vote for anybody but Ron Paul?
« Reply #57 on: September 16, 2007, 05:13:03 AM »
I don't dislike Ron Paul. In fact, I've met him personally and liked him quite a lot. I also agree with him a lot, including to an extent, on Iraq and other foreign involvements.

But he's not the guy. He's unelectable, regardless of how you look at it.

There aren't any other really great Republican candidates. Thompson at this point looks moderately tolerable, especially given a choice between him and Hillary. The other leading candidates, Republican and Democrat, look an awful lot like Hillary, to be honest.

K Frame

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Re: Why vote for anybody but Ron Paul?
« Reply #58 on: September 16, 2007, 05:28:20 AM »
I really would prefer not to see any more phrases like Ron Paul Zombies regarding Rep. Paul's supporters, folks.

Take that as a strong hint.
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Ben

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Re: Why vote for anybody but Ron Paul?
« Reply #59 on: September 16, 2007, 10:01:44 AM »
Quote
The other leading candidates, Republican and Democrat, look an awful lot like Hillary, to be honest.

Repeated because it's true. They all seem to be working on a , "what twist can I put on a Hillary topic that will make it appeal to my supporters?" I can see it as a good strategy from the Dem side, but extremely disappointing from the Rep side.

I also believe at this time Thompson is the most tolerable of the group.
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MechAg94

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Re: Why vote for anybody but Ron Paul?
« Reply #60 on: September 16, 2007, 10:14:58 AM »
As I said, I think Ron's a fine idea guy, but I am not seeing him as a leader.  His foreign policy comments in the debates certainly don't help that view.  Some of his ideas I have seen like eliminating the Federal Reserve system are neat discussion topics, but probably scare most voters and businessmen also.  He would be better off coming up with a plan to moderate the existing govt systems rather than scrapping them.  One step at a time. 

I like a lot of libertarian ideas, but you have to admit that libertarians are many times their own worst enemy.  I guess being a long time small 3rd party they have attracted a lot of fringe groups and fringe ideas.  I think a lot of people in their country could accept some sets of those ideas, but not all.  Different sets for different people also.  Someone like Paul needs to come up with a platform to run on and focus on just a few of those libertarian ideas and try not to get away from it.  If memory serves, this is what Bush did when he ran for governor in Texas some years back.  I remember hearing speeches at the beginning and end of his campaign and they were both largely the same since he focused on a few issues and stuck to them.
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Len Budney

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Re: Why vote for anybody but Ron Paul?
« Reply #61 on: September 16, 2007, 10:45:24 AM »
I like a lot of libertarian ideas, but you have to admit that libertarians are many times their own worst enemy.  I guess being a long time small 3rd party they have attracted a lot of fringe groups and fringe ideas.  I think a lot of people in their country could accept some sets of those ideas, but not all.  Different sets for different people also.

That's true, but it's somewhat the nature of the beast. One either believes in non-initiation of aggression or one doesn't, and the fact is that almost every human really does believe in initiating aggression when it benefits themselves. Hence almost everyone is bound to disagree violently with a libertarian in some aspect or other.

Nonagression is unnatural.

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The Rabbi

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Re: Why vote for anybody but Ron Paul?
« Reply #62 on: September 16, 2007, 11:13:57 AM »
Alan Keyes polled well and probably won a fair number of debates.  He also proved himself completely unelectable.
Ron Paul is the next Alan Keyes.
Chucking 200 years of regulatory and governmental history and starting over like we were some obscure country half-way across the world might appeal to feeble-minded teenagers stoned out in a midnight dorm session.
But it won't appeal to any significant number of voters.
And his stance on Iraq--foreign policy in general--alienates what ought to be his conservative base.

But I will admit that sandwiches would taste lots better if Ron Paul were presidents.
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gaston_45

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Re: Why vote for anybody but Ron Paul?
« Reply #63 on: September 16, 2007, 11:17:47 AM »

But he's not the guy. He's unelectable, regardless of how you look at it.


And yet http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i85tdRwC37k plus http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fevHlTcg2X4 would indicate otherwise.

200 years??  No, not 200 years, more like 40 to 60 years.  I don't remember the founders voting for welfare, foreign wars, or the IRS, did I miss something?  And thanks for the ad homenum but I'm neither a teen ager, stoned, or feeble minded.

The Rabbi

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Re: Why vote for anybody but Ron Paul?
« Reply #64 on: September 16, 2007, 11:25:15 AM »

But he's not the guy. He's unelectable, regardless of how you look at it.


And yet http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i85tdRwC37k plus http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fevHlTcg2X4 would indicate otherwise.

200 years??  No, not 200 years, more like 40 to 60 years.  I don't remember the founders voting for welfare, foreign wars, or the IRS, did I miss something?  And thanks for the ad homenum but I'm neither a teen ager, stoned, or feeble minded.

Hmm, yeah.  You missed something all right.  Try looking for Whiskey Rebellion, Barbary Pirates, Cuba, Mexican American War.
Then when you've done that, look for Interstate Commerce Commission, Comptroller of the Currency, Federal Reserve, and Pure Food and Drug Act.
Oh yeah.  And it's "ad hominem" not homenum.  Just add that to your list of things to be learned.
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Bogie

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Re: Why vote for anybody but Ron Paul?
« Reply #65 on: September 16, 2007, 11:27:51 AM »
The overwhelming Democratic strategy is NOT "vote against the candidate which you can't stand."
 
It's "vote for anyone but a Republican."

Personally, I'm voting for anyone but Hillary. Because while a 10% vote for libertarians may be a footnote in a history book at some time (if it is allowed to be written...), I'd rather not see Clinton win by 1% of the vote...

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gaston_45

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Re: Why vote for anybody but Ron Paul?
« Reply #66 on: September 16, 2007, 11:52:21 AM »
Wow.  You are honestly using a successful REBELLION against federal government usurpation of power to bolster your support of the same usurpation  going on today??  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whiskey_Rebellion  Whiskey tax? "The hated whiskey tax was repealed in 1803, having been largely unenforceable outside of Western Pennsylvania, and even there never having been collected with much success."

"The Commission's five members were appointed by the President with the consent of the United States Senate. This was the first independent agency (or so-called Fourth Branch). The ICC's original purpose was to regulate railroads (and later trucking) to ensure fair rates, to eliminate rate discrimination, and to regulate other aspects of common carriers."  And this relates to... anything remotely being discussed how?

"Office of the Comptroller of the Currency (or OCC) was established by the National Currency Act of 1863 and serves to charter, regulate, and supervise all national banks."   Again, relevance?

"It took the political influence of newly elected Democratic President Woodrow Wilson, along with a Democratic majority in both houses of Congress, to get the Aldrich Plan passed as the Federal Reserve Act in 1913."  Ohhhh, getting closer, 94 years.

"The Mexican-American War was an armed military conflict between the United States and Mexico from 1846 to 1848 in the wake of the 1845 U.S. annexation of Texas. Mexico did not recognize the secession of Texas in 1836; it considered Texas a rebel province."  Uh.... yeah.

"The Pure Food and Drug Act of June 30, 1906 is a United States federal law that provided for federal inspection of meat products, and forbade the manufacture, sale, or transportation of adulterated food products or poisonous patent medicines."  Closest yet, 101 years. 

"Though the Pure Food and Drug Act was initially concerned with making sure products were labeled correctly (habit forming cocaine-based drugs were not illegal so long as they were labeled correctly), the labeling requirement gave way to efforts to outlaw certain products that were not safe, followed by efforts to outlaw products which were safe but not efficacious."  Great example of why Ron Paul wants to abolish a lot of the agencies and laws don't you think?

Oh yeah, great catch on the spelling, glad the important and relevant part of the post was so soundly refuted.  Yep, I'm totally ignorant and my whole argument is negated by a spelling error.  Way to soundly argue that one.

Edited for grammatical error... saved you the time.

The Rabbi

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Re: Why vote for anybody but Ron Paul?
« Reply #67 on: September 16, 2007, 11:59:17 AM »
Amazing.  You can use Wiki and even cut and paste.  But you don't have a clue actually how to read the darn thing or make appropriate inferences.
I think you've answered your own question.
Thanks.
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gaston_45

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Re: Why vote for anybody but Ron Paul?
« Reply #68 on: September 16, 2007, 12:02:38 PM »
I can feed and clothe myself too, sometimes I even manage to get the top off a beer bottle.  Care to actually refute anything I posted on the topic of Ron Paul.. you know, since this is the Ron Paul thread??

Bogie

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Re: Why vote for anybody but Ron Paul?
« Reply #69 on: September 16, 2007, 12:11:48 PM »
Ron Paul is unfortunately not electable. Period.
 
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gaston_45

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Re: Why vote for anybody but Ron Paul?
« Reply #70 on: September 16, 2007, 12:17:28 PM »

Len Budney

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Re: Why vote for anybody but Ron Paul?
« Reply #71 on: September 16, 2007, 12:52:31 PM »
Hmm, yeah.  You missed something all right.  Try looking for Whiskey Rebellion...

The Whiskey rebellion was an act of injustice. Nobody ever said that GW was perfect.

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beaucoup ammo

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Re: Why vote for anybody but Ron Paul?
« Reply #72 on: September 16, 2007, 01:53:29 PM »
I did my own Very Unprofessional survey. Amazing what a clipboard can elicit from people! I figured eating is a common denominator, so I positioned myself outside an HEB food store here in San Antonio. I carefully chose the location to make the sample as culturally even as you can in a city like this. Of course it's flawed and in all probability I messed up on several levels..but I tried.

Out of the 53 people I asked (most every age/sex demographic), all but 5 had heard of Ron Paul and 26 of the 53 wanted him in the White House. That's 50% give or take. I have a lot of time on my hands. 
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Waitone

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Re: Why vote for anybody but Ron Paul?
« Reply #73 on: September 16, 2007, 02:08:17 PM »
Let's deal in bare-knuckled realities here.  Panic in the republican party has yet to set in.  The course is set for a thorough skunkin' in the 2008 election.  Party grey-hairs will be desperate to salvage anything they can which means any distraction will be dealt with summarily.  Republicans have learned just a few lessons over the years and one of major import is that popular third candidates tend to cause elections to be thrown.  There would have been no Bill Clinton had there not been Ross Perot.

We may think Paul rates up there with sliced bread and pop tops but bare-knuckled reality is Paul will be destroyed by the republican establishment (the same one which gave us the Bush family) long before the election if he is projected to draw a sizable vote.  There will be no more Ross Perots in the US political system.
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The Rabbi

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Re: Why vote for anybody but Ron Paul?
« Reply #74 on: September 16, 2007, 02:59:36 PM »
I can feed and clothe myself too, sometimes I even manage to get the top off a beer bottle.  Care to actually refute anything I posted on the topic of Ron Paul.. you know, since this is the Ron Paul thread??

That's easy.
You haven't posted ANYTHING on Ron Paul.

What can be said that hasn't been said already?  Ron Paul needs to get out of the race.  His fundraising stinks.  His poll numbers are dismal.  Whatever he might have contributed to the Republican side, he has done so already.  He has narrow, very limited appeal, especially in the Republican base.
I'd put him in the same class as Tom Tancredo.  And that ain't nowhere.
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