Author Topic: Pasta Monster Gets Academic Attention  (Read 6356 times)

Antibubba

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Re: Pasta Monster Gets Academic Attention
« Reply #25 on: November 17, 2007, 06:26:52 PM »
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ID theorists are saying that the scientific evidence, rather than being insufficient or unimportant, points directly to intelligent intervention in the development of life. 

Prove it.  Give me an outline of the experiment that you will conduct to back up your hypothesis that complexity is explainable only through the direct intervention of a higher being.  You can't, can you?  There IS NO SUCH EVIDENCE.  And there would be no way to test it if you had it. 

If you want to use scientific terminology, ID is a hypothesis, but an untestable one.

What the ID pushers don't understand is that evolution, or physics, or any other science isn't a refutation of the existence of a deity.  It does refute the literal story of Creation found in B'reishiet, which a lot of people find blasphemous and disturbing.  So why do we use the scientific model? 

BECAUSE IT WORKS.  There is a process that allows us to posit a question, and then outline an experiment that will let us test that question.  The results of an experiment can prove or disprove that question, although there is no guarantee that it will.  Creationism (lets call it what it is, OK?) doesn't allow the question or the experiment--because the answer always boils down to "Because G-d says so" or "Because that is what G-d did (and how dare you question the word or actions of G-d!)".  The questions that the scientific method allows us mere humans to ask have allowed us to generate electricity, travel into space, and create medicines that cure and prevent once-deadly diseases.  You can question the moral implications of those actions or results; that is where morality and the Bible excel.

How many Christian denominations are there, Fistful?  Thousands?  Tens of thousands?  Why?  Because even the New Testament, King James translation, is untestable--so that anytime even one person interprets a passage or edict differently than someone else, a schism occurs.  Someone goes in a new direction.  If the Bible were testable there would be only one reasonable denomination of Christianity (and that concedes the existence of unreasonable ones).  If it were provable, consistently, I wouldn't be Jewish, most likely.  Moslems might still exist, at least until it (or any religion developed after Christ, for that matter) either proved or disproved the validity of the Koran.  If the Koran were valid, and the events that Mohammed wrote of were provable, all you Christians would be some sort of Moslem.

But none of it is testable or provable, not even my own most deeply held beliefs.  I'm OK with that; I don't expect or require faith and science to agree with each other.  They are different realms.  Honestly, Creation Science is an admission of failure, isn't it, because it says that you are forced to copy scientific method in order that religion stay relevant.  I'm not a practicing Jew, but it is still a very important facet of my life, and it guides the choices I make.  I don't NEED Judaism to agree with, and be confirmed by, every action or event that occurs in the material world.  I don't NEED religion to be everything, nor do I need science to uphold my most deeply held beliefs.  Science covers events; religion covers the right actions we take or undertake in the world around us.  I'm not troubled by the fossil record, or the bones of Lucy.  It all points to something greater than myself or what I can know.  I have no doubt whatsoever about the existence of G-d--I even have events and anecdotal evidence of His existence.  None of which, BTW, would do anything to disprove your own most cherished beliefs, and none of which are impossible by the standards of physical science.  And none of which diminishes what happened, at least not to me.

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Perd Hapley

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Re: Pasta Monster Gets Academic Attention
« Reply #26 on: November 17, 2007, 08:24:03 PM »
Antibubba, you have only revealed that you don't know much about ID, creation science, or the interchange between faith and reason.  I don't have time to untangle all of your confusion there.  You might check out some articles from the Discovery Institute and Answers in Genesis websites.  At least then you would have some idea what they are thinking.   
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bedlamite

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Re: Pasta Monster Gets Academic Attention
« Reply #27 on: November 17, 2007, 09:35:20 PM »
Quote from: Douglas Adams
The argument goes something like this: "I refuse to prove that I exist," says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing."
     "But," says Man, "the Babel fish is a dead giveaway isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don't. QED"
     "Oh dear," says God, "I hadn't thought of that," and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic.
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Tecumseh

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Re: Pasta Monster Gets Academic Attention
« Reply #28 on: November 17, 2007, 11:56:45 PM »
Antibubba, you have only revealed that you don't know much about ID, creation science, or the interchange between faith and reason.  I don't have time to untangle all of your confusion there.  You might check out some articles from the Discovery Institute and Answers in Genesis websites.  At least then you would have some idea what they are thinking.   

Can you give some suggestions that are not from biased websites?  Perhaps some that dont have a basis in religion?  What about some neutral sites and sources?  Perhaps government sources?

I am sorry but science is provable and ID is just a false science.  As someone else mentioned the fact that it is trying to use science to prove its own validity against science is ironic.

So is the Flying Spaghetti Monster any less real than ID?

drewtam

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Re: Pasta Monster Gets Academic Attention
« Reply #29 on: November 18, 2007, 05:19:57 AM »
Would you accept the hypothesis of a biologist? In his books he lays out the scientific principles as to why he believes ID is necessary and indirectly scientifically provable. Then I would suggest reading some of the scientific rebuttals from other journals and sources. Some are good and reasonable, many I find to be ignorant and focus on mocking religion and any ID hypothesis. Which gives ID proposals more strength in my mind. Then I would suggest reading Behe's rebuttals to the rebuttals. Some of the discussion gets technical but if you slog through it, you will certainly be more enlightened than your current opinions.

http://www.amazon.com/Edge-Evolution-Search-Limits-Darwinism/dp/0743296206/ref=pd_bbs_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1195398371&sr=8-1

Editorial Reviews
From Publishers Weekly
With his first book, Darwin's Black Box, Behe, a professor of biology at Lehigh University, helped define the controversial intelligent design movement with his concept of "irreducible complexity." Now he attempts to extend his analysis and define what evolution is capable of doing and what is beyond its scope. Behe strongly asserts, to the likely chagrin of young earth creationists, that the earth is billions of years old and that the concept of common descent is correct. But beginning with a look at malaria and the sickle cell response in humans, Behe argues that genetic mutation results in only clumsy solutions to selective pressures. He goes on to conclude that the statistical possibility of certain evolutionary changes taking place is virtually nil. Although Behe writes with passion and clarity, his calculations of probability ignore biologists' rejection of the premise that evolution has been working toward producing any particular end product. Furthermore, he repeatedly refers to the shortcomings of "Darwin's theory-the power of natural selection coupled to random mutation," but current biological theory encompasses far more than this simplistic view. Most important, Behe reaches the controversial conclusion that the workings of an intelligent designer is the only reasonable alternative to evolution, even without affirmative evidence in its favor.
Copyright ? Reed Business Information, a division of Reed Elsevier Inc. All rights reserved.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Pasta Monster Gets Academic Attention
« Reply #30 on: November 18, 2007, 06:20:13 AM »
Tecumseh, I am not suggesting that Antibubba believe in ID or creationism.  I am suggesting that he do some rudimentary research on what ID and creation science have to say, rather than flailing at a straw man of his own misconceptions.  Thus, the "biased websites" are entirely appropriate. 
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MechAg94

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Re: Pasta Monster Gets Academic Attention
« Reply #31 on: November 18, 2007, 02:55:58 PM »
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Prove it.  Give me an outline of the experiment that you will conduct to back up your hypothesis that complexity is explainable only through the direct intervention of a higher being.  You can't, can you?  There IS NO SUCH EVIDENCE.  And there would be no way to test it if you had it.
Prove it?  I would say the same to people who think everything came about through evolution.  Smiley 

I have no problem with sticking to science, just make sure you stick to the scientific method and hard science for real.  Evolutionists are just as guilty of depending on a leap of faith to prove their origin theory as any other. 
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Antibubba

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Re: Pasta Monster Gets Academic Attention
« Reply #32 on: November 20, 2007, 07:17:53 AM »
You're right that some embrace evolution as doctrine.  As working theories go, though, it's a pretty good one.  but if someone were to present incontrovertable evidence that it was wrong, if if enough people were to present evidence over time about the origins of species being about something else, over time the scientific community would make the shift.

But ID is based on faith--no amount of evidence could convince the faithful that G-d was not the master hand behind it all.

A scientific theory says "This seems to be the way things work, based upon the evidence I have available.  Can anyone refute this?"  Then it is put up for peer review, and other scientists try to poke holes in it. 

Where is the peer review for ID?  At least, where is a refutation that doesn't lead to damnation?   rolleyes
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roo_ster

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Re: Pasta Monster Gets Academic Attention
« Reply #33 on: November 20, 2007, 09:10:50 AM »
Personally, I do not consider ID to be science.

But, then, I do not consider the theory of evolution to be science, either, since it lacks the data to back up its claims.

Both are more akin to philosophies, one quasi-religious and one secular, used as props for unprovable core belief systems.
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MechAg94

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Re: Pasta Monster Gets Academic Attention
« Reply #34 on: November 20, 2007, 10:37:41 AM »
Personally, I do not consider ID to be science.

But, then, I do not consider the theory of evolution to be science, either, since it lacks the data to back up its claims.

Both are more akin to philosophies, one quasi-religious and one secular, used as props for unprovable core belief systems.
Yeah, that is about how I look at it.  IMO, ID was just a method for Creationists to highlight the problems with evolution as an origin theory. 

IMO, evolution as in breeding or natural selection has been shown, but not much more than that has been proven.

The big problem is that almost everyone has preconceptions going into this.  Both sides know they are right before facts even come into play. 
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Pasta Monster Gets Academic Attention
« Reply #35 on: November 20, 2007, 12:24:54 PM »

A scientific theory says "This seems to be the way things work, based upon the evidence I have available.  Can anyone refute this?"  Then it is put up for peer review, and other scientists try to poke holes in it. 

Where is the peer review for ID? 

How would ID not fit this description?  Why could it not be peer-reviewed?  Are you saying that ID researchers have shielded their research from peer review? 
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wooderson

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Re: Pasta Monster Gets Academic Attention
« Reply #36 on: November 20, 2007, 12:29:37 PM »
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But, then, I do not consider the theory of evolution to be science, either, since it lacks the data to back up its claims.

Just for kicks...

What are these "claims" and what "data" would suffice?
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roo_ster

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Re: Pasta Monster Gets Academic Attention
« Reply #37 on: November 20, 2007, 07:25:40 PM »
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But, then, I do not consider the theory of evolution to be science, either, since it lacks the data to back up its claims.

Just for kicks...

What are these "claims" and what "data" would suffice?
Claims
Evolution occurs when these heritable differences become more common or rare in a population, either non-randomly through natural selection or randomly through genetic drift....Over many generations, adaptations occur through a combination of successive, small, random changes in traits, and natural selection of those variants best-suited for their environment.
Essentially, whatever the mechanism (nat sel, gen drft, etc), evolution will occur voer time and in a gradual fashion.

Data
First off, a fossil record that showed a gradual evolution of species over time, so as to give the theory some foothold in reality.

Back in Darwin's day, he & fellow believers could rightly claim that they have only begun to investigate the fossil record.  So, huge gaps could be dismissed with the wave of a hand and it was assumed that, in time, the record would come together.  In 2007, that excuse is lame.  A whole potful of fossils have been found and the gaps is the records are not really gaps: they are great discontinuous leaps of evolution at discrete intervals.  For example, the fossil record for species A1 goes along without change for a few million years.  Suddenly, A1 disappears and A2 (which is determined to be the follow-on to A1) takes its place.  Thing is, A2 has gross differences from A1 that appeared licketey split, evolutionarily speaking.

A theory of evolution that relies on gradual mutations over time that persists in the face of such data is based on the faith of its adherents, not the data. 

There are other problems, but I have to get up at 0400 tomorrow...
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roo_ster

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Antibubba

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Re: Pasta Monster Gets Academic Attention
« Reply #38 on: November 20, 2007, 07:57:17 PM »
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How would ID not fit this description?  Why could it not be peer-reviewed?  Are you saying that ID researchers have shielded their research from peer review?

No, what I'm saying is that ID is an untestable hypothesis: That the universe is so complex that only a guiding hand could have produced this outcome.  It CANNOT be proven; more important, it cannot be DISPROVEN--that is, G-d cannot be denied with absolute certainty.

Here is a good article:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropic_Principle

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Strings

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Re: Pasta Monster Gets Academic Attention
« Reply #39 on: November 22, 2007, 07:10:53 AM »
What y'all seem to miss here is REAL easy...

>Why would the supreme being have to "come from somewhere"?  The perfectly logical assertion of theism is that God simply exists.<

Which God? Is it Jehova? Is it Allah (I repeat myself)? Odin? Baphomet? Kali? Takama-no-hara? Mug-wug of the Ubunti tribe?

Unless you can absolutely guarantee that no one version of "God" will be used as THE model, then ID theory does NOT belong in publicly funded schools. Period. Full stop. Religion has NO place being taught in public schools...

 Or perhaps you're open to the idea of your children learning about the rites of Beltane in elementary school, too?

Len Budney

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Re: Pasta Monster Gets Academic Attention
« Reply #40 on: November 22, 2007, 07:38:48 AM »
Unless you can absolutely guarantee that no one version of "God" will be used as THE model, then ID theory does NOT belong in publicly funded schools. Period. Full stop. Religion has NO place being taught in public schools...

I'm no fan of ID. I guess I don't think it belongs in public schools, but that's hard to say; since I don't think there should be public schools, I'm indifferent to what's taught there.

But it isn't necessary to define God for purposes of ID. If the IDers could prove that something were "irreducibly complex," they'd have demonstrated that natural selection fails to explain all the data. They'd also have done genuine science. In that context, "intelligent design" is just a euphemism for "didn't arise by natural selection." The problem of how it did arise would still be open. If we assume for the sake of argument that "God" did it, questions like "which god" would still be open, and would probably still be outside the purview of science.

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Re: Pasta Monster Gets Academic Attention
« Reply #41 on: November 22, 2007, 08:06:16 AM »
I'm mentioning it because, quite honestly, it seems to be Christians pushing ID...

Perd Hapley

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Re: Pasta Monster Gets Academic Attention
« Reply #42 on: November 22, 2007, 07:26:35 PM »
I'm mentioning it because, quite honestly, it seems to be Christians pushing ID...


Which means nothing in terms of whether ID is science or whether it should be taught in public schools.  How on earth do you go about banning a certain line of inquiry from public schools, unless it can be guaranteed that line of inquiry won't lead to conclusion x ?  If English Lit. provides support for Wicca, should we ban that, too? 

If ID is a good scientific approach, and if it becomes a common scientific model with which students need to be familiar, then it should be taught.  If it happens to support one religion or another, that's the breaks.  You can't hide the truth just because it might lead to some religious view point.  That's not a proper understanding of the First Amendment. 

All of this assumes that ID is good science.  If it's not, attack it scientifically, not because it is friendly to one religion or another. 
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Strings

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Re: Pasta Monster Gets Academic Attention
« Reply #43 on: November 23, 2007, 01:33:36 AM »
>If ID is a good scientific approach, and if it becomes a common scientific model with which students need to be familiar, then it should be taught.  If it happens to support one religion or another, that's the breaks.  You can't hide the truth just because it might lead to some religious view point.  That's not a proper understanding of the First Amendment.<

You misunderstand me here. I'm not saying the science is either good or bad. What I AM saying, is it quite often seems that ID is being used as a way of bringing religion back into the classroom. That is not a good thing...

 Saying "There's too much diversity for everything to have been random chance, therefor some hypothesize that there is an intelligent Creator" is ok... nobody is getting theology (in the strictest sense). Saying "There's too much diversity... this is evidence that God Created everything" becomes an issue, and on multiple levels...

 unfortunately, negative evidence (which is all that ID provides to disprove evolution) isn't really evidence. So the two really aren't on the same footing: evolution can be tested in a lab, whereas ID can not be. That makes evolution a theory, and ID nothing more than a cool hypothesis. Given that, why should ID be given the same consideration as evolution?

 Then we have the game of "my invisible friend is better than yours". Would you accept a teacher telling your children about how Shiva danced the world into being, while explaining ID? How about Great Grandfather Sky? Marduk and Tiamat? Mug-Wug of the Ubanti peoples? The Flying Spaghetti Monster?

 If you answer "No" to any of those, why should you expect others (who may follow those beliefs) to accept "The Lord God Jehova" attached to ID?

 As for an english lit teacher presenting something that actually "promotes wicca" in the classroom... I'd be right there beside you, telling said teacher to knock it off. Things like that do NOT belong in the classroom

Perd Hapley

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Re: Pasta Monster Gets Academic Attention
« Reply #44 on: January 06, 2008, 06:26:14 AM »
HA!  You thought I'd let it slide, didn't you?  You thought you'd get by with it?  I DON'T THINK SO!    laugh


A lot of your last post deals with objections to ID theory itself, which I think must be a separate argument.  The argument I thought we were having was based on the contingency that ID somehow turns out to be an important scientific point of view that rivals the conventional evolutionary view. 

By your standard, if we cannot teach ID (even if it were scientifically valid), then we cannot teach evolution in classrooms, either.  Obviously, evolution can be used to undermine faith in the inerrancy of Judeo-Christian scripture, or in any God at all.  (Im just saying it can be used that way, and has been used that way.  Obviously, there are many people who dont see a discrepancy between evolution and their religious beliefs.  But, teachers can use evolution to undermine religion if they are so inclined.)  That being the case, it fails your test of what should be allowed in the classroom.   Remember, your standard is that, what might be abused should not be taught.  Actually, I suspect your standard is only intended for religious matters, but there is no reason to single out religion for special treatment, so the standard must apply equally. 

But that would keep us from including passages of the Bible in literature courses, even though it is one of the most important literary works.  After all, some teacher might teach it the wrong way, or insist that students believe in it.  Or how can we teach civics, when teachers may discount the second amendment as something antiquated, or teach that rights are granted by govt, rather than being inerrant? 

All education is open to abuse.  And there are some areas that are best avoided in the public school.  But if were teaching any sort of speculation on origins, we cant exclude one just because it could support religion, but then teach another one that could lead to atheism. 

The plain and obvious answer, that should please all sides, is for public schools to teach students about the theory of evolution, and then point out that some have criticized the theory on scientific grounds.  ID would be mentioned here.  Further, the public school educator should point out that, if the students parents or religion has a different view, they should look for answers about that view, and how it might differ from what has been taught.  After all, science is always open to better theories. 

Why can we not all agree on that?   
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Antibubba

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Re: Pasta Monster Gets Academic Attention
« Reply #45 on: January 06, 2008, 04:29:49 PM »
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ll sides, is for public schools to teach students about the theory of evolution, and then point out that some have criticized the theory on scientific grounds.  ID would might be mentioned here. 

ID is one possibility; So is Raelian theory, that the UFOs and ETs sighted by so many are in fact "scientists" checking on their planet-sized Petri dish.  At least there are pictures and videos of craft and landing spots--I don't see any film of the Crucifixion on You Tube.  So what if they are Unidentified Flying Objects!  They certainly fit the criteria of what we'd expect interstellar craft to be capable of.  And the fact that the government has gone to a great deal of trouble to discredit these sightings and events only proves that TPTB are afraid of the truth, and seek to deny it credibility--just as they (and the NEA in turn) do the story of Creation and the underpinnings of ID.
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wooderson

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Re: Pasta Monster Gets Academic Attention
« Reply #46 on: January 06, 2008, 04:48:53 PM »
It occurs to me that the people who support ID are the same people who argue that we had to invade Iraq before the terra-ists attacked us.

Some folks are fond of that which cannot be proven, it seems.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Pasta Monster Gets Academic Attention
« Reply #47 on: January 06, 2008, 08:40:06 PM »
It occurs to me that the people who support ID are the same people who argue that we had to invade Iraq before the terra-ists attacked us. 


Uh, no, that wouldn't be true at all.  Not much of an argument, anyway, of course.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Pasta Monster Gets Academic Attention
« Reply #48 on: January 06, 2008, 08:54:31 PM »
Antibubba,

Are UFO sightings in the curriculum of your public high school?  You're talking about a subject of marginal importance.  I don't recall my physics courses ever explaining that UFOs are really weather-balloons and marsh gas. 

In contrast, I was talking about a subject (origins) already on the curriculum of many biology courses.  Further, if I am not mistaken, there are other scientific criticisms of evolutionary theory, of which ID is merely one.  I said that the point of view should be brought up as a point of interest, not preached, nor explained in detail.  I certainly would not expect it to receive much support from science teachers.  But I don't know why evolution must be preached as a doctrine never to be questioned.  Or why any questioning must be regarded as a rejection of science itself. 
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Strings

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Re: Pasta Monster Gets Academic Attention
« Reply #49 on: January 06, 2008, 09:23:37 PM »
Oh, wow... this is seriously sad. Y'all are making me side with fistful...

 So long as ID only mentions a "Creator" (ie: a non-specific deity), there should be no problem with mentioning it as an alternative theory (amongst others). It should only become a problem when one person's version of Deity is espoused...

 For example: a science teacher saying " And one alternative theory is that life was Created by some higher being, and guided through evolution. Evidence of such is X, Y, and Z" would be perfectly acceptable. The same teacher saying "A different viewpoint is that the Lord God Jehova Created Man in His image, and then Created woman from man's rib. The Bible explains this in Genisis XXX" would be completely inappropriate...

 The problem that comes up is, it seems many who vocally push for ID to be taught, push for option "B" above...