Brady bunch OUT SEnator McCain

[MicroBalrog]

If there's no going back from what Obama can do, is there any going back from what LBJ did? Or FDR?

[seeker_two]

Option 1: Obama wins. Proves to be the failure we know he is and only serves one term. GOP uses this time to regain its conservative base (and all those voters who went third-party or stayed at home) and put up a good conservative candidate. We spend next eight years fixing everything messed up over the last 20 years.....

Option 2: McCain wins. Proves to be the failure we know he is and only serves one term. Puts the final nail in the GOP coffin. Hillary runs and wins in '08 on the "See, I Told You So" ticket. Clinton schemes and GOP demise equal another 40 years of liberal Democrat rule. Insurgency begins....

Which option do YOU prefer?.....

[Manedwolf]

Option 1: Obama wins. Proves to be the failure we know he is and only serves one term. GOP uses this time to regain its conservative base (and all those voters who went third-party or stayed at home) and put up a good conservative candidate. We spend next eight years fixing everything messed up over the last 20 years.....

Option 2: McCain wins. Proves to be the failure we know he is and only serves one term. Puts the final nail in the GOP coffin. Hillary runs and wins in '08 on the "See, I Told You So" ticket. Clinton schemes and GOP demise equal another 40 years of liberal Democrat rule. Insurgency begins....

Which option do YOU prefer?.....

Option 3: Obama wins. Dems in Congress go nuts, pass gun bans, pass gun registration, pass ammunition storage bans, etc, etc...Obama not only campaigns for it with his rhetoric, but signs it all. Obama foreign policy is Carter Mk II with a dose of Neville Chamberlain, world becomes drastically more unstable, we get hit in the continental US by terrorists again, Obama is clueless about how to react.

If there's no going back from what Obama can do, is there any going back from what LBJ did? Or FDR?

Appoint Khaled Mashaal as the prime minister of Israel just to make a point. Let him install his people in the entire cabinet. No? Why not?

[MicroBalrog]

Obama is actually demonstrably to the right of LBJ and FDR in his policies. Possibly even right of Hillary.

And again I ask:

Do you think we can reverse any of the major legacies of the major leftist presidents?

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

demonstrably? that slised off tongue glibly enough  can you support it?

[MicroBalrog]

demonstrably? that slised off tongue glibly enough  can you support it?

Sure.

FDR supported 'labor armies', the military draft, and confiscation of privately-possessed gold. Obama does not support any of these.

LBJ supported a national guaranteed income [putting everybody on welfare], the military draft, and income taxes north of 70%. Obama does not support any of these.

[MicroBalrog]

Now, my question remains:

Do you think the legacy of the New Deal and the Great Society is reversible at all?

[Manedwolf]

Now, my question remains:

Do you think the legacy of the New Deal and the Great Society is reversible at all?

You haven't addressed my challenge.

As I said:

Appoint Hamas' leader Khaled Mashaal as the prime minister of Israel just to make a point. Let him install his people in the entire cabinet. No? Why not?

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

i missed lbj doing all that  and i was here alive then

[Silver Bullet]

LBJ supported a national guaranteed income [putting everybody on welfare], the military draft, and income taxes north of 70%. Obama does not support any of these.

I'm guessing he favors two of those, even if he hasn't come out and said so.

[Manedwolf]

LBJ supported a national guaranteed income [putting everybody on welfare], the military draft, and income taxes north of 70%. Obama does not support any of these.

I'm guessing he favors two of those, even if he hasn't come out and said so.

He's sure said a lot about collectivism, even though he conspicuously left military service out of his speeches about how to serve your country. Military baaaaad.

[MicroBalrog]

i missed lbj doing all that  and i was here alive then

Look up newspaper editorials from that era. National guaranteed income was discussed in Congress with the support of the President, highest income tax bracket reached 73%, and of course he was in favor of the draft.

Obama =/= Khaled Mashaal. Further, Obama as President, even with both Houses Democratic, would not have even remotely the type of power an Israeli PM would have if he were able to handpick every cabinet minister. For this to happen he'd need to have undisputed control of the legislature - something no PM of Israel ever had.

If an Israeli political party were able to control 61 seats of the Knesset singlehandedly (which is required to be able to arbitrarily appoint cabinet members), they'd be able to repeal Basic Law, mold the nation to their whim, whatever. No Israeli PM has ever had this much power.

Nor will Obama. As such your argument is specious.

I answered your question. Now answer mine.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

i'm not finding an references to johnson and national guaranteed income. maybe ids a question of perspective  i find him supporting student loan funding and mortgage availability

http://www.answers.com/topic/war-on-poverty

[MicroBalrog]

i'm not finding an references to johnson and national guaranteed income. maybe ids a question of perspective  i find him supporting student loan funding and mortgage availability

http://www.answers.com/topic/war-on-poverty

Hazlitt's "Man vs. Welfare State" is a collection of Hazlitt's newspaper editorials wherein he comments [from a libertarian perspective of course] on what were issues debated at the time. Even if you disagree with everything he says, it's an instructive source as to what was actually debated. Tomorrow, when I have  an actual working Internet connection at campus, I will look up for you some more 'official' sources, but for now, can we avoid derailing the thread over one minor point? (I see you concede the points about taxes and the draft).

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

you know what the tax rate was during ikes reign?

[MicroBalrog]

you know what the tax rate was during ikes reign?

What does  this have to do with the issues discussed? Yes, I know it went north of 90% at top rate. I use wiki.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_tax_in_the_United_States

Which returns me to my point:

LBJ thought 70% top rate was too low.

Nobody today even seriously considers we will have a return to the era of pre-Reagan big government. Obama actually wants 80 billion in tax cuts.

[Manedwolf]

Nobody today even seriously considers we will have a return to the era of pre-Reagan big government. Obama actually wants 80 billion in tax cuts.

For people who make and contribute very little, while punishing the small-business owners and those who HIRE people. Yeah, that'll work out really well.

[MicroBalrog]

Nobody today even seriously considers we will have a return to the era of pre-Reagan big government. Obama actually wants 80 billion in tax cuts.

For people who make and contribute very little, while punishing the small-business owners and those who HIRE people. Yeah, that'll work out really well.

Nobody is saying Obama is a good candidate. But he's not OMG SATAN. He's not even Hillary.

I'm still waiting for your answer to my earlier question.

[De Selby]

Nobody today even seriously considers we will have a return to the era of pre-Reagan big government. Obama actually wants 80 billion in tax cuts.

For people who make and contribute very little, while punishing the small-business owners and those who HIRE people. Yeah, that'll work out really well.

In other words, you don't want Obama's tax cuts.

That doesn't mean he's a tax and spend socialist.

This thread is proof that politicians have succeeded in turning politics into a brand war, rather than a product features debate.  McCain is a republican, and "republicans are good for guns!", therefore no amount of reasoning or examination of McCain's versus Obama's positions will ever change the ideological truth that McCain is good for guns and Obama is bad.

[wacki]

Sometimes I wonder if the firearm community suicidal.  Members of this forum are trusting the Brady campaign  and hoping Obama gets elected.

Holy crapola.

[MicroBalrog]

Sometimes I wonder if the firearm community suicidal.  Members of this forum are trusting the Brady campaign  and hoping Obama gets elected.

Holy crapola.

Have you read my posts?

Nowhere had I said Obama is a good Presidential candidate. I have not even said he's a better candidate than McCain. Read my posts.

[MicroBalrog]

Let me elaborate on what I previously stated only in passing comments.

Any political party is a bit like Ulysses in the straits of Messina. On one hand, you have the danger of choosing a candidate that is far too extreme, and then you don't win the elections, because moderates and fence-sitters don't vote for you. But there exists also the danger of electing candidates so moderate that your more 'radical' voters will either vote for someone else and not turn out. This is a good thing because it prevents your party from becoming meaningless by constantly moving to the center.

If a party elects a candidate that is too moderate, then it kills its own platform. The two processes  of either the moderates or the radicals jumping ship  prevent a political party from either becoming raving mad (think Alan Keyes), and also prevent it from becoming so moderate that its platform and values are shot in the head. Both of these processes are necessary in the political process.

By curling up in fear of the other party's candidate ostensibly being Satan Himself On A Crutch, you short-circuit this process by eliminating one half of it. It's like hacking off a leg.

The world is not going to end if Obama wins.

It's okay if the GOP loses this election.

Should have invested in a better candidate.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

and there is always the fantasy that with mccain gone some kinda mass hysteria will make paul viable

[MicroBalrog]

and there is always the fantasy that with mccain gone some kinda mass hysteria will make paul viable

What does that have to do with anything? Yes, Ron Paul was an infinitely superior candidate to McCain. But had Thompson or Huckabee won, you'd not be reading any of this, because they, too, were far better candidates than McCain.

[Manedwolf]

and there is always the fantasy that with mccain gone some kinda mass hysteria will make paul viable

What does that have to do with anything? Yes, Ron Paul was an infinitely superior candidate to McCain. But had Thompson or Huckabee won, you'd not be reading any of this, because they, too, were far better candidates than McCain.

Ron Paul was an out-of-touch old man who is now making his family money by milking his cultish supporters for a few dollars...and they're still giving it to him.

Isolationist foreign policy and 19th century economics. Yeah. That makes a LOT of sense.