Alan Dershowitz says Zimmerman charge a no-go.

[MicroBalrog]

Until some self-appointed "neighborhood riot stopper" shoots you in the head for "looking suspicious", that idea is just dandy.  You just might want to have a think about who will be speaking this "universal language" before you go endorsing it.

De Selby: Don't you think that if someone is trying to set fire to a house or car with people on it, it's fine and dandy to shoot them?

Or a group of healthy, strong men trying to gang up on a single man to beat him down, they're dandy to shoot too.

[RevDisk]

Until some self-appointed "neighborhood riot stopper" shoots you in the head for "looking suspicious", that idea is just dandy.  You just might want to have a think about who will be speaking this "universal language" before you go endorsing it.

Misidentification DOES happen. So does twitchy fingers and poor fire discipline.

But on the other hand, if someone is smashing a window or setting things on fire, it's obvious who is a rioter. Thing is, folks tend to riot in their own neighborhood or nearby. Fantasies of putting down looters in your backyard is unlikely, unless you live in a border region next to an already unstable area.

[roo_ster]

Misidentification DOES happen. So does twitchy fingers and poor fire discipline.

But on the other hand, if someone is smashing a window or setting things on fire, it's obvious who is a rioter. Thing is, folks tend to riot in their own neighborhood or nearby. Fantasies of putting down looters in your backyard is unlikely, unless you live in a border region next to an already unstable area.

Yeah, all of this.

But, light rail public transpo can bring a mob/rot/gang from the hood to (near) your home.  Something to think about when house-hunting.  "Great access to MetroCity light rail" can also be interpreted as "We bring the ghetto to your doorstep."

[HankB]

I'm tellin ya, you start shooting rioters and that *expletive deleted* stops pronto.

In the wake of the MLK assassination, much of Detroit burned. When rioters started that stuff in Chicago, Mayor Daley (the original, not the son) gave police an order: Shoot to kill arsonists, shoot to maim looters.

This was VERY public, and the rioting stopped as soon as the word got out. The usual suspects from the usual community stomped their feet and threw a tantrum, but Chicago didn't burn the way Detroit did.

That order was the only good thing I remember either Daley doing.

As for the Zimmerman case . . . the waters have been thoroughly muddied by politicians and the media. Assuming Zimmerman's lawyer is any good at vetting jurors and doing his job, I think the outcome will largely depend on whether or not the prosecution can fill in what happened in the gap between the end of the 911 call and the eyewitness who saw Martin beating Zimmerman.

[RevDisk]

Yeah, all of this.

But, light rail public transpo can bring a mob/rot/gang from the hood to (near) your home.  Something to think about when house-hunting.  "Great access to MetroCity light rail" can also be interpreted as "We bring the ghetto to your doorstep."

That would be Baltimore. Baltimore itself is mostly a less pleasant version of Beirut. 1980's Beirut. With the exception of the heavily policed Green Zone (Inner Harbor). SOME areas inside Baltimore have been reclaimed, but mostly it's not a place you'd want to live.

The bus routes basically do export the ghetto. Lot of good folks from the ghetto too, that just want a job. Which is good, because it allows the ghetto refugees to actually move up which they would not be able to do in Baltimore proper. Most of the folks who are willing to commute an hour by bus are motivated. Unfortunately, the drama follows with it too.

[lupinus]

Until some self-appointed "neighborhood riot stopper" shoots you in the head for "looking suspicious", that idea is just dandy.  You just might want to have a think about who will be speaking this "universal language" before you go endorsing it.

So...someone flipping cars and setting *expletive deleted*it on fire is just a bit...suspicious looking?

I'm tellin ya, you start shooting rioters and that *expletive deleted* stops pronto.

People need to figure that one out. Start flipping police cars and tossing molotovs? Bullet to the head, mother *expletive deleted*er. It's a universal language.

Yep. I'm in a nicer area of Anderson, but the ghetto is near. Well within "we want to ^)&^% some people up" walking distance.

[De Selby]

De Selby: Don't you think that if someone is trying to set fire to a house or car with people on it, it's fine and dandy to shoot them?

Or a group of healthy, strong men trying to gang up on a single man to beat him down, they're dandy to shoot too.

I do - but I also think its dangerous in times of unrest to have armed "protectors" roaming around with ideas like say, hoodies being signs of danger.   

It isn't just misidentification that's the problem, it's bizarre interpretations of what constitutes a threat or a riot that I'm concerned with.

[De Selby]

Yeah, all of this.

But, light rail public transpo can bring a mob/rot/gang from the hood to (near) your home.  Something to think about when house-hunting.  "Great access to MetroCity light rail" can also be interpreted as "We bring the ghetto to your doorstep."

True, but that's a burglary and robbery problem you're describing - riots require numbers too large to be a real issue outside the rioters own neighborhoods.

[MicroBalrog]

True, but that's a burglary and robbery problem you're describing - riots require numbers too large to be a real issue outside the rioters own neighborhoods.

[CNYCacher]

I do - but I also think its dangerous in times of unrest to have armed "protectors" roaming around with ideas like say, hoodies being signs of danger.   

You've now completely jumped the shark.

[Boomhauer]

You've now completely jumped the shark.

^This.

I don't see where anyone other than De Selby has suggested shooting suspicious people...

[De Selby]

^This.

I don't see where anyone has suggested shooting suspicious people...except for De Selby.

Where did I accuse anyone here of suggesting that?  My point is that not everyone who takes up public protection as a hobby will be so reasonable.  And at least some of them think your clothing choices are a good enough reason to "investigate".   

How do you feel about those types being armed and looking out at you as you go about your day?

[Boomhauer]

WTF?

[Regolith]

  And at least some of them think your clothing choices are a good enough reason to "investigate".  [citation needed]

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

True, but that's a burglary and robbery problem you're describing - riots require numbers too large to be a real issue outside the rioters own neighborhoods.

you are yet again mistaken

[roo_ster]

True, but that's a burglary and robbery problem you're describing - riots require numbers too large to be a real issue outside the rioters own neighborhoods.

Uh, yeah, but no.  That is at odds with reality I have witnessed.

you are yet again mistaken

Indeed. 

The very nice mall across the street from our church has attracted mucho gang/mob activity.  It is a short stroll from the light rail station.  You can see the pickup in activity after sunset, as they roll off the train and move toward the mall.  The mall owners cranked up the off-duty officers to "11" and they have pushed out to adjoining properties, to include my church.  We had folks who were using the athletic field after dark menaced by a 10-20 strong group of "urban youths."  I think I gave details on this in another thread: we're hiring armed guards, affidavit on record with the police allowing them to come on the property if they see anything suspicious(1), all the supporting legal mumbo-jumbo, etc.

See, this is why smart suburbs fight regional mass-transit boondoggles.  Folks moved to the burbs to escape urban decay and pathologies.  No need to lay out the welcome mat for it.

[Boomhauer]

THAT'S RRRRRAAAAAAAACCCCCCCCCCCCCCCIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIISSSSSSSSSSSSSSSTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT!!!!!!!!!!!

Those Urban Youths aren't harming anybody! They're just enjoying the evening and you racist aholes think they are up to no good! You vigilantes are just itching to shoot them, aren't you?

[roo_ster]

THAT'S RRRRRAAAAAAAACCCCCCCCCCCCCCCIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIISSSSSSSSSSSSSSSTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT!!!!!!!!!!!

Those Urban Youths aren't harming anybody! They're just enjoying the evening and you racist aholes think they are up to no good! You vigilantes are just itching to shoot them, aren't you?

Well, they did make such nice targets when their 15-20YO selves were crawling all over the playground equipment, getting on the top and doing their best to rock the equipment out of their concrete footings.  I do suspect they had not a clue how much time everyone in the Parent-Teacher League put in to raise the money and ride herd on the installation.  I also doubt they thought about how much effort it took us to get the requisite 6" deep playground mulch spread under the equipment as they flicked their cig butts into it and tossed empty cans & bottles down.  Or that our kids might have to play around their filth.

[Monkeyleg]

Where did I accuse anyone here of suggesting that?  My point is that not everyone who takes up public protection as a hobby will be so reasonable.  And at least some of them think your clothing choices are a good enough reason to "investigate".   

How do you feel about those types being armed and looking out at you as you go about your day?

I do - but I also think its dangerous in times of unrest to have armed "protectors" roaming around with ideas like say, hoodies being signs of danger.   

In your first statement, you say it's dangerous in times of unrest to have armed "protectors" roaming around. How can they possibly be dangerous unless they're going to shoot someone? Unless you think that the mere presence of a gun is dangerous, then your two statements are contradictory.

[HankB]

I do - but I also think its dangerous in times of unrest to have armed "protectors" roaming around with ideas like say, hoodies being signs of danger.   

It isn't just misidentification that's the problem, it's bizarre interpretations of what constitutes a threat or a riot that I'm concerned with.

Yeah, the armed merchants of Koreatown proved to be really dangerous during the Rodney King riots.

(If you were a rioter.)

[Tallpine]

Yeah, the armed merchants of Koreatown proved to be really dangerous during the Rodney King riots.

(If you were a rioter.)

They did a better job than the Nawlins police 

[De Selby]

In your first statement, you say it's dangerous in times of unrest to have armed "protectors" roaming around. How can they possibly be dangerous unless they're going to shoot someone? Unless you think that the mere presence of a gun is dangerous, then your two statements are contradictory.

I was referring specifically to the "bullet in the head!" business.  Self defence is always a good thing, and armed people who will defend themselves help prevent lawlessness.

Running around in times of unrest shooting people who you think are rioters?  Whole different kettle of fish.  The same way defending your own home is different to wandering a shopping centre, looking for criminals.

Roo ster, I don't see how 10-20 people is a potential riot.   I see a robbery/burglary problem in the photo as well.  A crowd on a bus is not going to be able to ruin whole neighborhoods a la Rodney king.

[roo_ster]

Roo ster, I don't see how 10-20 people is a potential riot.   I see a robbery/burglary problem in the photo as well.  A crowd on a bus is not going to be able to ruin whole neighborhoods a la Rodney king.

Herd/crowd behavior rules even at that level.  Precise number is incidental.

[De Selby]

Herd/crowd behavior rules even at that level.  Precise number is incidental.

By that definition a two man beat down could be a riot - not sure the concept has any meaning if that's what we are talking about here.

[Perd Hapley]

Could you then explain how 20 people cannot be a riot? What is the threshold, and why?