Author Topic: The 2024 Circus  (Read 35269 times)

Perd Hapley

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Re: The 2024 Circus
« Reply #475 on: February 23, 2024, 08:42:35 PM »
To save democracy we must be a Banana Republic
 
If Trump Wins, Trying to Stop Election Certification Won't Be a 'Threat to Democracy' Anymore
https://twitchy.com/dougp/2024/02/23/if-trump-wins-trying-to-stop-election-certification-wont-be-a-threat-to-democracy-anymore-n2393247

No doubt in my mind their certification day antics (should Trump win) will make 6 Jan 2021 look like nap time at the opium den. The Stop J20 riots of '17 will be a sweet memory of order and harmony.
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Ben

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Re: The 2024 Circus
« Reply #476 on: February 23, 2024, 09:04:00 PM »
No doubt in my mind their certification day antics (should Trump win) will make 6 Jan 2021 look like nap time at the opium den. The Stop J20 riots of '17 will be a sweet memory of order and harmony.

And in their case, it will be antifa riots all over again, with everyone getting a slap on the wrist. If Trump wins, I don't care what kind of riots it causes, but I want him to give blanket pardons to everyone convicted for anything 06JAN. Especially if these morons do what they're talking about on certification day.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: The 2024 Circus
« Reply #477 on: February 23, 2024, 09:35:00 PM »
And in their case, it will be antifa riots all over again, with everyone getting a slap on the wrist. If Trump wins, I don't care what kind of riots it causes, but I want him to give blanket pardons to everyone convicted for anything 06JAN. Especially if these morons do what they're talking about on certification day.

Concur. I guess there might be some hard cases that need to serve their time, or get commutations, but if the Republican Party wants any kind of loyalty from their voters, they need to pardon all or nearly all of the defendants.

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Ben

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Re: The 2024 Circus
« Reply #478 on: February 24, 2024, 08:27:55 AM »
Concur. I guess there might be some hard cases that need to serve their time, or get commutations, but if the Republican Party wants any kind of loyalty from their voters, they need to pardon all or nearly all of the defendants.

Sure - there were people that actually committed crime and did property damage, but I figure between their time spent imprisoned without bail while waiting for trial, and time spent in jail after conviction by January 2025, they've paid their dues. Certainly more so than 90% of the antifas.

For those that got years to decades for "trespassing" or for not even being there but saying "wrongthink" out loud, I hope they sue and win for millions and millions of dollars, regardless of if those are my tax dollars or not.
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Ben

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Re: The 2024 Circus
« Reply #479 on: February 24, 2024, 08:32:36 AM »
Well, it seems like today will be the day for Republicans. The numbers in South Carolina are looking like a landslide for Trump. If that turns out to be the case, I don't see how Haley can justify continuing on.

After this it will all be about what dirty tricks the dems are going to pull to try and disqualify Trump, or question the integrity of elections if Trump wins, and disqualify him then.
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zahc

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Re: The 2024 Circus
« Reply #480 on: February 24, 2024, 08:43:34 AM »
 I'm really disappointed but not altogether surprised we are going to have Trump again. Does he have any platform besides throwing and smashing things?
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Ben

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Re: The 2024 Circus
« Reply #481 on: February 24, 2024, 08:52:49 AM »
I'm really disappointed but not altogether surprised we are going to have Trump again. Does he have any platform besides throwing and smashing things?

He actually has a solid platform, but nobody ever sees it because he's always throwing and smashing things. I notice that a number of his speeches of late have been much more grown up and presidential - quite impressive, actually. But then he goes back to Twitter mean girl mode.

It's the old joke about one "aw *expletive deleted*it" wiping away ten "attaboys". Except he's currently on the 2:1 plan instead of the 1:10 plan. If his team could rein him in,  his policies that gave us a secure border, no wars, and a good SC could shine. I don't have high hopes, though.
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dogmush

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Re: The 2024 Circus
« Reply #482 on: February 24, 2024, 09:05:18 AM »
If only the major parties hadn't been incentivized over decades to not care about providing solid candidates because the faithful refuse to even consider voting for anyone outside their party, even if R v. D. is Giant *expletive deleted*che vs. Turd Sandwich.

I know, I know *THIS* election is too important to risk losing.  The nation faces an existential threat this time.  We can work on more parties after we defeat [huge enemy of the other side]. Just vote [R or D] to save the country now, and they will reform after this election.

Ben

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Re: The 2024 Circus
« Reply #483 on: February 24, 2024, 09:17:09 AM »
If only the major parties hadn't been incentivized over decades to not care about providing solid candidates because the faithful refuse to even consider voting for anyone outside their party, even if R v. D. is Giant *expletive deleted*che vs. Turd Sandwich.

I know, I know *THIS* election is too important to risk losing.  The nation faces an existential threat this time.  We can work on more parties after we defeat [huge enemy of the other side]. Just vote [R or D] to save the country now, and they will reform after this election.

Is "chicken and egg" the right metaphor to use? I generally agree with what you said, but it always comes down to how to get the numbers for the votes. Both sides are always afraid of "throwing away their vote" on a third (or fourth or fifth) party candidate. How do you break that barrier?
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Boomhauer

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Re: The 2024 Circus
« Reply #484 on: February 24, 2024, 09:56:54 AM »
I'm really disappointed but not altogether surprised we are going to have Trump again. Does he have any platform besides throwing and smashing things?

That’s the only reason I want him in the Whitehouse.
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Holy hell. It's like giving a loaded gun to a chimpanzee...

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OTOH, there wouldn't be a tweeker left in Georgia...

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Perd Hapley

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Re: The 2024 Circus
« Reply #485 on: February 24, 2024, 11:21:23 AM »
If only the major parties hadn't been incentivized over decades to not care about providing solid candidates because the faithful refuse to even consider voting for anyone outside their party, even if R v. D. is Giant *expletive deleted*che vs. Turd Sandwich.

I know, I know *THIS* election is too important to risk losing.  The nation faces an existential threat this time.  We can work on more parties after we defeat [huge enemy of the other side]. Just vote [R or D] to save the country now, and they will reform after this election.

Not sure what you mean by decades. The US has been a 2-party system since the beginning.

https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/duvergers-law-dead-parrot-dunleavy/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duverger%27s_law

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=how+does+first-past-the-post+lead+to+2+party+system&t=brave&ia=web

Do you think there's a way of changing the built-in tendency toward a 2-party system before this November's elections? What should we do differently? I'm open to changing it, but won't it take at least a few election cycles?

I think the big question you're not asking is why Republicans are so insistent on nominating Trump instead of the Person Who Obviously Should Be the Republican Nominee (PWOSBRN). We had a much better choice within the 2-party system, but we went with Trump, instead. Why? That's not because of any party system, or winner-take-all, first-past-the-post elections. It's because we wanted to put our feels (gotta own the libs! love Trump!) over electing the PWOSBRN. PWOSBRN has a record of combining massive electoral success, even in blue areas, while simultaneously advancing an America-first, pro-liberty, anti-SJW platform. The 2-party system didn't deprive us of that. That was a self-own.
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dogmush

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Re: The 2024 Circus
« Reply #486 on: February 24, 2024, 11:38:22 AM »
Is "chicken and egg" the right metaphor to use? I generally agree with what you said, but it always comes down to how to get the numbers for the votes. Both sides are always afraid of "throwing away their vote" on a third (or fourth or fifth) party candidate. How do you break that barrier?

Convince both sides that they are throwing away their vote by voting for whatever trash the main parties regurgitate to be picked from, and convince people that it's not the end of the nation if "their" party looses an election or three if the resultant shift to a third party allows for 1. a replacement of one of the big two, or 2. one of the big 2 instituting massive reforms to bring them closer to what the country is supposed to be.

So far I've been spectacularly unsuccessful at convincing folks of that.  They'd rather vote for trash out of fear of "losing" and further cement the uniparty's control.  The outliers are folks like Boomhauer who seem to say they are voting for the candidate (Trump) that will cause the most ruckas and damage to the establishment, which I actually understand and sympathize with.

Not sure what you mean by decades. The US has been a 2-party system since the beginning.


I feel like the "This is the End!!! You have to vote for [party schmuck] or the country ends THIS YEAR!!!!11!!" method of campaigning is more prominent in the later half of the 20th century and today then it was at the beginning of the country, but I may be mistaken.  Certainly even at the start the Founders had disagreements about the direction of government.  While we are (and have been) a two party system, pressure from the voters has managed to not only switch which parties are the "two" (Whig, Democratic-Republican, Federalist, Bull Moose for one shining cycle) but also shift the direction of a major party (Democrats circa early mid 20th century, and maybe again circa 2016?  we'll see).  But none of that pressure can be brought to the parties if the faithful are unwilling to leave or abstain no matter what senile fool is offered to them.


Do you think there's a way of changing the built-in tendency toward a 2-party system before this November's elections? What should we do differently? I'm open to changing it, but won't it take at least a few election cycles?
Nope.  I've lost hope of even convincing people not to vote for Biden.  The Fear Porn is too strong and consistant

I think the big question you're not asking is why Republicans are so insistent on nominating Trump instead of the Person Who Obviously Should Be the Republican Nominee (PWOSBRN). We had a much better choice within the 2-party system, but we went with Trump, instead. Why? That's not because of any party system, or winner-take-all, first-past-the-post elections. It's because we wanted to put our feels (gotta own the libs! love Trump!) over electing the PWOSBRN. PWOSBRN has a record of combining massive electoral success, even in blue areas, while simultaneously advancing an America-first, pro-liberty, anti-SJW platform. The 2-party system didn't deprive us of that. That was a self-own.

You'd have to ask a Republican.  I don't understand either of the apparent nominees.  Unless the "F it burn it all down" contingent is bigger than it seems in both parties, which I guess is possible.

RocketMan

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Re: The 2024 Circus
« Reply #487 on: February 24, 2024, 12:15:21 PM »
How long would it take for the wonderful third party that's going to save our 'democracy' to be corrupted to the same extent as the two current parties?  Not long I would think, and then we'd be back where we started.
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WLJ

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Re: The 2024 Circus
« Reply #488 on: February 24, 2024, 12:19:39 PM »
How long would it take for the wonderful third party that's going to save our 'democracy' to be corrupted to the same extent as the two current parties?  Not long I would think, and then we'd be back where we started.

Considering 3rd parities usually are splinter groups from an already corrupt party will more than likely mean it will be corrupt to some extent in it's creation. Add to that political parties are by their very nature corrupt to a certain extend anyway.
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Pb

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Re: The 2024 Circus
« Reply #489 on: February 24, 2024, 12:46:43 PM »
I think the reason a lot of people vote for Trump is that they despise the people that control the GOP.  The GOP says conservative things, but on a national level they do almost nothing popular with the average voter, let alone doing anything conservative. 

Remember all those great, conservative laws the GOP passed when they had the House, the Senate and the Presidency?  Yeah, me neither.  They only do what the rich donors tell them to.

Trump is perceived as being alternative this for average GOP voters who are sick of do-nothing Congressmen.

This perception persists, despite the fact Trump a horrible person who isn't very competent and running things.  Trump is very, very good at PR though.  That's good enough for low information voters.

dogmush

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Re: The 2024 Circus
« Reply #490 on: February 24, 2024, 12:54:46 PM »
How long would it take for the wonderful third party that's going to save our 'democracy' to be corrupted to the same extent as the two current parties?  Not long I would think, and then we'd be back where we started.

I didn't say it would save our democracy* I said it would be better than continuing down this path.  Reminding the parties that if they stray too far from the center path they can be swapped out wholesale might put a governor on the hand basket's engine.  As it is both party's apparatchiks only listen to money and power, as Pb noted,  because their voters have trained them that candidate quality and accomplishments are not related to votes recieved.


Well by all means keep voting for the lesser of two evils, it's going swimmingly. Maybe we'll get a third Uniparty war for Christmas next year.  What's the definition of insanity again?

*I know you were being sarcastic,  but generally if I'm talking politics with someone and they use the phrase "Our Democracy " I take that as a sign to end the discussion,  and slowly back away while avoiding eye contact.

zahc

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Re: The 2024 Circus
« Reply #491 on: February 24, 2024, 01:19:03 PM »
Both sides are always afraid of "throwing away their vote" on a third (or fourth or fifth) party candidate. How do you break that barrier?

Ranked choice voting
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zahc

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Re: The 2024 Circus
« Reply #492 on: February 24, 2024, 01:25:00 PM »
Quote
think the big question you're not asking is why Republicans are so insistent on nominating Trump


This iteration of Trump is the best way to sabotage the Republican party. To answer the question, ask " who wants to sabotage the Republican party".

The first iteration of Trump was a plausible "none of the above" or "something different" lever. This iteration is not.

You'll get no argument from me that the Republican party is in crisis but trump will not overcome that nor reform the party. His first term proved that.
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Ben

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Re: The 2024 Circus
« Reply #493 on: February 24, 2024, 01:28:00 PM »
Ranked choice voting

That's how you get mediocre candidates, IMO. It's still the two party system, but the minority party votes for the majority party guy with the smallest cajones, in hopes of diluting the opposing party. In ranked choice, if the R candidates are DeSantis and Jeb Bush, the Ds try to force a Jeb candidacy.
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Boomhauer

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Re: The 2024 Circus
« Reply #494 on: February 24, 2024, 01:55:48 PM »

This iteration of Trump is the best way to sabotage the Republican party. To answer the question, ask " who wants to sabotage the Republican party".

The first iteration of Trump was a plausible "none of the above" or "something different" lever. This iteration is not.

You'll get no argument from me that the Republican party is in crisis but trump will not overcome that nor reform the party. His first term proved that.

Maybe I’m not making myself clear….*expletive deleted*ck the Republican Party. They need to crash and burn.
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Holy hell. It's like giving a loaded gun to a chimpanzee...

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the last thing you need is rabies. You're already angry enough as it is.

OTOH, there wouldn't be a tweeker left in Georgia...

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zahc

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Re: The 2024 Circus
« Reply #495 on: February 24, 2024, 03:50:08 PM »
Maybe I’m not making myself clear….*expletive deleted*ck the Republican Party. They need to crash and burn.

And there you have part of the answer...a contingent of nominal Republicans are so fed up with the party they are engaging in self-harm. This is definitely a factor imo.
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RocketMan

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Re: The 2024 Circus
« Reply #496 on: February 24, 2024, 05:09:31 PM »
*I know you were being sarcastic,  but generally if I'm talking politics with someone and they use the phrase "Our Democracy " I take that as a sign to end the discussion,  and slowly back away while avoiding eye contact.

As well you should.  Hell, even supposed Republicans who should know better are talking about "saving our Democracy."  It's in the name of their party for cryin' out loud.

If there really was intelligent life on other planets, we'd be sending them foreign aid.

Conservatives see George Orwell's "1984" as a cautionary tale.  Progressives view it as a "how to" manual.

My wife often says to me, "You are evil and must be destroyed." She may be right.

Liberals believe one should never let reason, logic and facts get in the way of a good emotional argument.

Boomhauer

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Re: The 2024 Circus
« Reply #497 on: February 24, 2024, 06:19:35 PM »
And there you have part of the answer...a contingent of nominal Republicans are so fed up with the party they are engaging in self-harm. This is definitely a factor imo.

The GOP hasn’t done a single thing for America in my lifetime
Quote from: Ben
Holy hell. It's like giving a loaded gun to a chimpanzee...

Quote from: bluestarlizzard
the last thing you need is rabies. You're already angry enough as it is.

OTOH, there wouldn't be a tweeker left in Georgia...

Quote from: Balog
BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD! SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE! AND THROW SOME STEAK ON THE GRILL!

cordex

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Re: The 2024 Circus
« Reply #498 on: February 24, 2024, 06:58:42 PM »
Getting people to vote against the other party has always been more effective than getting people to vote for their party.

Boomhauer

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Re: The 2024 Circus
« Reply #499 on: February 24, 2024, 07:17:06 PM »
As expected SC goes Trump
Quote from: Ben
Holy hell. It's like giving a loaded gun to a chimpanzee...

Quote from: bluestarlizzard
the last thing you need is rabies. You're already angry enough as it is.

OTOH, there wouldn't be a tweeker left in Georgia...

Quote from: Balog
BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD! SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE! AND THROW SOME STEAK ON THE GRILL!