Author Topic: So, We're siding with Apple, right?  (Read 29730 times)

Fitz

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Re: So, We're siding with Apple, right?
« Reply #25 on: February 18, 2016, 09:36:47 AM »
Question:
Was Apple willing to help the Feds recover data from the phone separately without helping to defeat their encryption generally?

I was a bit surprised the court order was so specific.  



They've assisted with some aspects of the investigation already. Problem is, in order to do what the feds need in order to break into the phone, they have to develop an easily misused and super powerful tool, and they don't like the unintended consequences of that


Side note. is it an unintended consequence when the evil bastards actually INTEND it? guess not, eh?
Fitz

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Fitz

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Re: So, We're siding with Apple, right?
« Reply #26 on: February 18, 2016, 09:38:02 AM »
Bogie is doing the same thing on the book of face.

Yeah. between that and his ramping up of the "if you don't vote for who the GOP puts in front of you, you're part of the problem" rhetoric put me above my stupid *expletive deleted*it limit for the dayWeek year
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KD5NRH

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Re: So, We're siding with Apple, right?
« Reply #27 on: February 18, 2016, 09:39:33 AM »
Seems to me that an offer of $5M to the first hacker who can reliably demonstrate a method would not only solve the current issue, but give NSA a hell of a lead on a valuable new recruit.

TechMan

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Re: So, We're siding with Apple, right?
« Reply #28 on: February 18, 2016, 09:41:23 AM »
Yeah. between that and his ramping up of the "if you don't vote for who the GOP puts in front of you, you're part of the problem" rhetoric put me above my stupid *expletive deleted*it limit for the dayWeek year

I hear you on that.
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Fitz

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Re: So, We're siding with Apple, right?
« Reply #29 on: February 18, 2016, 09:43:18 AM »
Seems to me that an offer of $5M to the first hacker who can reliably demonstrate a method would not only solve the current issue, but give NSA a hell of a lead on a valuable new recruit.

The first hacker to do what theyre asking would have to accomplish one of a few things. Both extraordinary, both dangerous, neither of which we want in .gov hands


1) theyd have to straight up break the encryption. For all intents and purposes, barring a serious security flaw (and the algorythms and engine involved is pretty bulletproof), most consider this not possible.

Or

2.) Find a way to push a software update breaking the 10-try-wipe functionality on the phone, without user confirmation. That would essentially mean developing a tool that could root the phone without user knowledge. Another thing we don't want in the wild, and likely not possible. Even the better jailbreaks can't alter core system functionality, of which the wipe function is part of.


another option, I guess:

3). Breach apple, and poison their official software updates. Same problems as the previous one.
Fitz

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makattak

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Re: So, We're siding with Apple, right?
« Reply #30 on: February 18, 2016, 09:45:17 AM »
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

MechAg94

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Re: So, We're siding with Apple, right?
« Reply #31 on: February 18, 2016, 09:50:22 AM »
They've assisted with some aspects of the investigation already. Problem is, in order to do what the feds need in order to break into the phone, they have to develop an easily misused and super powerful tool, and they don't like the unintended consequences of that


Side note. is it an unintended consequence when the evil bastards actually INTEND it? guess not, eh?
It seems to me the way the court order is written does not allow for Apple to help get the data without showing the FBI how to do it generally.  I don't like it.  
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Fitz

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Re: So, We're siding with Apple, right?
« Reply #32 on: February 18, 2016, 09:59:32 AM »
It seems to me the way the court order is written does not allow for Apple to help get the data without showing the FBI how to do it generally.  I don't like it.  

yeah, and that's one of the basis that they objected. The other being that just as a matter of good practice, developing such a tool would mean that tool could leak into the wild.
Fitz

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Fitz

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Re: So, We're siding with Apple, right?
« Reply #33 on: February 18, 2016, 10:00:18 AM »
Oh, hey, look who's NOT siding with Apple:

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2016/02/17/donald-trump-i-would-force-apple-to-hack-san-bernardino-killers-iphone/

Shocker.

MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN! WHAT A HAT! YOU IN THE RED HAT! STAND UP!. WHAT A BEAUTIFUL HAT
Fitz

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brimic

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Re: So, We're siding with Apple, right?
« Reply #34 on: February 18, 2016, 10:18:54 AM »
Yeesh. Everytime tje donald opens his mouth, the bigger the clown he looks like. ;/
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T.O.M.

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Re: So, We're siding with Apple, right?
« Reply #35 on: February 18, 2016, 11:10:26 AM »
Yeesh. Everytime tje donald opens his mouth, the bigger the clown he looks like. ;/

Problem is that too many people, including some I thought were intelligent, don't see it that way.
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Fitz

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Re: So, We're siding with Apple, right?
« Reply #36 on: February 18, 2016, 11:17:07 AM »
Problem is that too many people, including some I thought were intelligent, don't see it that way.

"He's not part of the establishment!"

"He says what he feels! No filter!"

As if these are automatically in the plus column. The same was true for Rand, and his popularity was orders of magnitude less than trump. Mostly , I believe, because Americans are simply stupid.
Fitz

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I have reached a conclusion regarding every member of this forum.
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You are all awful people. I mean this *expletive deleted*ing seriously.

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MechAg94

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Re: So, We're siding with Apple, right?
« Reply #37 on: February 18, 2016, 11:27:12 AM »
I think part of it is all the mudslinging, false accusations, and flat out lies over the years.  People don't know what to believe so they dismiss all of it.  Once they convince themselves Trump is their guy, they are very slow to change their mind.  I am not sure if that is a bad thing. 

On the bad side, Congressmen Brady and Culberson are running for reelection locally.  From what I am hearing, these guys sold their souls to the establishment years ago, but they are running lots of radio commercials claiming they are the most stalwart conservatives in Congress.  If you don't have a source of information to counter that, what do you believe?  The primary challengers don't have enough funding to run all those ads.
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MechAg94

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Re: So, We're siding with Apple, right?
« Reply #38 on: February 18, 2016, 11:28:45 AM »
It also nice how key events like this tell you a lot about a politicians core beliefs. 
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

Ben

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Re: So, We're siding with Apple, right?
« Reply #39 on: February 18, 2016, 11:30:27 AM »
I'm not a Trump guy, but in fairness, what is the position of the other candidates, both R and D, on this?
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mtnbkr

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Re: So, We're siding with Apple, right?
« Reply #40 on: February 18, 2016, 11:33:07 AM »
I'm not a Trump guy, but in fairness, what is the position of the other candidates, both R and D, on this?

Jeb Bush has publicly come down against private encryption use in the past.

ETA: https://theintercept.com/2015/08/19/jeb-bush-comes-encryption/

Chris

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Re: So, We're siding with Apple, right?
« Reply #41 on: February 18, 2016, 11:41:20 AM »
Jeb Bush has publicly come down against private encryption use in the past.

ETA: https://theintercept.com/2015/08/19/jeb-bush-comes-encryption/

Chris

Well that's a shocker. Not.
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MechAg94

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Re: So, We're siding with Apple, right?
« Reply #42 on: February 18, 2016, 11:41:24 AM »
I saw an interesting post on another site.  A poster suggested the Feds already have access to the phone, but need Apple to provide the information in order to introduce it as evidence without showing they already have access.  Kind of a tinfoil hat idea, but interesting.   [tinfoil]
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Fitz

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Re: So, We're siding with Apple, right?
« Reply #43 on: February 18, 2016, 11:49:22 AM »
I'm not a Trump guy, but in fairness, what is the position of the other candidates, both R and D, on this?

The debates covered it a bit, and there have been some other public statements. IIRC correctly, all of em were either not expressing a strong position, or in favor of pressuring tech companies to "help with the encryption problem"

Fitz

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Ben

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Re: So, We're siding with Apple, right?
« Reply #44 on: February 18, 2016, 11:54:12 AM »
The debates covered it a bit, and there have been some other public statements. IIRC correctly, all of em were either not expressing a strong position, or in favor of pressuring tech companies to "help with the encryption problem"



Sadly not surprising. I would expect Paul would have been the only one walking into the wind. Not just sad commentary on the current candidates, but the idea that they are taking their positions based on what they think will get them the most votes, which reflects directly on what most of the voters think is the right thing to do. Hooray for safety.
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Fitz

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Re: So, We're siding with Apple, right?
« Reply #45 on: February 18, 2016, 11:58:15 AM »
Sadly not surprising. I would expect Paul would have been the only one walking into the wind. Not just sad commentary on the current candidates, but the idea that they are taking their positions based on what they think will get them the most votes, which reflects directly on what most of the voters think is the right thing to do. Hooray for safety.

Yep.

We need to come to terms with the fact that a large segment of America doesn't give two shits about liberty.

I do, however, like turning tech people's resistance to control of encryption against them. One guy I know sent an email to a few of us talking about how crazy it was that the .gov wanted to get backdoors. I copied the entire thing, changed all reference to encryption to semi-automatic rifles, and sent it back to him.

DUDE ITS COMPLETELY DIFFERENT etc etc

Fitz

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brimic

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Re: So, We're siding with Apple, right?
« Reply #46 on: February 18, 2016, 12:03:09 PM »
Yep.

We need to come to terms with the fact that a large segment of America doesn't give two shits about liberty.

I do, however, like turning tech people's resistance to control of encryption against them. One guy I know sent an email to a few of us talking about how crazy it was that the .gov wanted to get backdoors. I copied the entire thing, changed all reference to encryption to semi-automatic rifles, and sent it back to him.

DUDE ITS COMPLETELY DIFFERENT etc etc



They want our backdoors- in every sense of the word...
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MechAg94

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Re: So, We're siding with Apple, right?
« Reply #47 on: February 18, 2016, 12:23:38 PM »
If the issue is new, I wouldn't expect all the candidates to come out with strong statements either way until they know what is happening.  I just looked at it this morning.  I guess Trump has commented directly and Jeb has commented in the past.  We'll see.  

I saw mention of a public storage lot as an example.  They aren't asking for access to one storage locker where they can cut the lock.  They want a master key turned over that will access all of them anytime they wish.  That is what bothers me.  

That makes me wonder if Apple could rig it so there was some way to access a specific phone when in the physical possession of law enforcement that would destroy the phone functionally, but give access to the data already on it.  
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Fitz

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Re: So, We're siding with Apple, right?
« Reply #48 on: February 18, 2016, 12:44:43 PM »
If the issue is new, I wouldn't expect all the candidates to come out with strong statements either way until they know what is happening.  I just looked at it this morning.  I guess Trump has commented directly and Jeb has commented in the past.  We'll see.  

I saw mention of a public storage lot as an example.  They aren't asking for access to one storage locker where they can cut the lock.  They want a master key turned over that will access all of them anytime they wish.  That is what bothers me.  

That makes me wonder if Apple could rig it so there was some way to access a specific phone when in the physical possession of law enforcement that would destroy the phone functionally, but give access to the data already on it.  


http://www.breitbart.com/video/2016/02/17/cruz-apple-should-open-san-bernardino-attackers-phone-but-its-right-it-should-have-to-backdoor-every-phone/

Edited to add: just another fking politician who doesn't know what he's talking about. He has no idea that there's no way to breach just the single phone.


As to the bit at the end of your post... problem is, there's no good way to do that and not affect all phones. you could conceivably require a special bit of hardware with a unique encryption key that was stored in a super secure vault at apple... but the moment it exists, the fed.gov is gonna say "give it to me"

the best solution, as WOPR would say, is for apple simply not to play... to keep telling them to pound sand
Fitz

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RevDisk

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Re: So, We're siding with Apple, right?
« Reply #49 on: February 18, 2016, 12:54:19 PM »

If the issue is new, I wouldn't expect all the candidates to come out with strong statements either way until they know what is happening.  I just looked at it this morning.  I guess Trump has commented directly and Jeb has commented in the past.  We'll see.  

I saw mention of a public storage lot as an example.  They aren't asking for access to one storage locker where they can cut the lock.  They want a master key turned over that will access all of them anytime they wish.  That is what bothers me.  

That makes me wonder if Apple could rig it so there was some way to access a specific phone when in the physical possession of law enforcement that would destroy the phone functionally, but give access to the data already on it.  

Certainly. You need such a rig for hardware development. It probably involves decapping chips, exposing board traces, codes for the encrypted bus, etc. Something that could only be done with the physical device and be extremely hard/expensive to duplicate. And certainly functionally ruin the phone from being used in normal circumstances. This is necessary part of developing any hardware product with an ounce of security. There isn't a master key that Apple CAN hand over at present. The FBI is asking them to backdoor their product and allow the FBI to essentially have a master key. Oh, sure, they're claiming it is for one phone. And they might even believe it themselves.

If Apple bows to the FBI on this, every other country will demand the same backdoor. They're not doing this because Apple are nice guys. They're screwed if they become the US government's puppets. At a minimum, all foreign governments with above room temperature IQ's will forbid their employees from using Apple devices. That'd give Google a substantial market advantage. Plus the crippling PR aspects. Plus, the FBI is demanding essentially that Apple foot the bill for cutting their own throats.

Oh, and the unimaginable liability. If an FBI agent or high school dropout TSA agent inevitably uses an Apple developed backdoor to say, steal nude photos of celebrities... the US government has sovereign immunity. Apple has tens of billions in cash assets. Who do you think any ambulance chaser is going to sue? If I was Apple's head of legal, I'd be telling Cook to sound like the most ardent Constitution supporter since Jefferson and scream to the high heavens. Apple faces losses somewhere between tens of millions and unknown tens of billions if they lose this court order. Sure, America loses too, but Apple is looking into an abyss of liability and lawsuits. Probably not enough to break them, but enough to significantly damage them.
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