Titanic tourist sub goes missing

[Nick1911]

I have a piece of equipment that is missing it's remote control.  In figuring out what I was going to do about it, I learned that playstation controllers have an SPI interface and are fairly easy to interface to.

Which is great for some dude messing around in his garages.  I did not expect to find it on a deep water submersible, however.

[Angel Eyes]

I am real curious what went into the design of this craft.  Are there mechanical backups to these controls?  Also seems pretty cramped for 5 people.

Fair questions.  I'm also curious about how many deep dives this submersible made before going missing.


ETA:

The CEO of OceanGate, which is operating the missing Titanic tourist submarine, explains that the company didn’t want to hire any experienced “50 year old white guys” because they weren’t “inspirational.”     

https://twitter.com/stillgray/status/1671372833979785217

[dogmush]

https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2023/06/submarine-missing-near-titanic-used-a-30-logitech-gamepad-for-steering/
I am real curious what went into the design of this craft.  Are there mechanical backups to these controls?  Also seems pretty cramped for 5 people.

I think mechanical backups for fly-by-wire systems are pretty rare these days.  You wouldn't want extra holes in the pressure hull for added mechanical lines either, if you could help it.


Much hay has been made on the internet about using the COTS Logitech controller to control the thrusters, and of all the things to pick on this sub and company about, that's one I don't get.

The thrusters are controlled by a computer (pretty much all submersable thrusters are).  You need an input device to tell the computer which direction you want to go so it knows which thrusters to engage.  Why is the Logitech pad worse than whatever DOD funded Bespoke joystick DSRVs have, or the touchscreen the Crew Dragon uses?  Logitech has been making reliable input devices for decades.  If they'd torn the keyboard off of a ToughBook, and the guy was just hitting W-A-S-D would anyone be scoffing at the controls?

[AZRedhawk44]

You guys are fixating a lot on manual backups.  Manual backups to the wireless joystick controller, manual backups to the ballast release, manual backups to beacon releases...

The sub capsule is completely sealed.  100%, no holes anywhere.  It's an integrally wound carbon fiber hull... I assume a layer of titanium tube gives the CF its starting dimensions and it is wound to 5 inches thickness for strength.  Two titanium endcap flanges are mated to the CF tube with a high pressure epoxy.  The only holes on either flange are for the fore and aft caps, for bolts to seal the cap to the tube.

All control to the motors and other electronics mounted on the hull are through wireless signals transmitted through the hull.  It seems they have separate power sources for interior systems and exterior systems.  It's an inventive solution to a common problem they have in space, how to pass control cables through a pressure hull to equipment outside.  In space you're only fighting 1 bar of pressure though.  Here it's 400 bar.  Space solutions are insufficient to the challenge.

I actually think that having ballast in the form of metal poles on racks is rather brilliant.  It's a mechanical failsafe that doesn't rely upon a hole in the hull for control.  Just spin the hull by adjusting internal weight: have the passengers hug a wall until the sub rotates and drops the pipes.  Just make sure nothing critical is likely to be impacted or tangled by the falling metal weights in the new orientation.

I bet they have fully redundant control systems.  Two joysticks.  Each is paired to a different bluetooth interface, on a separate computer outside.  Each of those computers are capable of controlling the external propulsion and dive surfaces.  Each is given dedicated primary power, with some sort of relay or diode reversible cross-draw to the other system's power supply.

[RocketMan]

I use that same Logitech F710 wireless game pad on my gaming PC.  It uses two AA alkaline batteries and goes through them pretty quickly.  The joystick controls get wonky as the battery voltage drops.  It would be a hell of a note if it's simply a case of the batteries being depleted and they didn't carry spares. 

[WLJ]

I use that same Logitech F710 wireless game pad on my gaming PC.  It uses two AA alkaline batteries and goes through them pretty quickly.  The joystick controls get wonky as the battery voltage drops.  It would be a hell of a note if it's simply a case of the batteries being depleted and they didn't carry spares.

From what I've read wouldn't surprise me one bit.

Anyone else here old enough to remember a short live show back in the 70s with Andy Griffith where he built a spaceship from junkyard parts?
Salvage 1, couldn't remember the name, had to look it up. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salvage_1

The Vulture
Harry builds a spaceship dubbed Vulture, made completely from reclaimed salvage and powered by a chemical called monohydrazine. The main body of Vulture is composed of a Texaco gasoline semi-trailer tank truck with a cement mixer as the capsule. This is augmented with three shorter rocket boosters placed 120 degrees around the main tank.

This sub reminds me of that

[230RN]

Great analysis,  dogmush, especially pointing out the variable bouyancy due to changing volume of the entire craft under various pressures.

On the joystick, I wondered if the tiny resistors or potentiometers (1/4 Watt, 1/2 Watt ?) would handle any substantial load for very long.  Even if used to control a fly-by-wire computer control.  I could just see him hooking them up to the control motors directly... "Hey, this works great!"

(Too much theory, not enough engineering.)

I don't know how many in the world would know this  tiny bit of Morse code, but if it were me, I would tap out:
 
taptaptap...tap...tap...tap...taptaptap repeatedly.

Yeah, I know, it's supposed to be SOS, not S  O  S, but if you don't have a key under your fist, that tap sequence will work.

[WLJ]

Still got to find it let alone find out what kind of condition it's in

We heard this afternoon about the arrival of a French underwater Robotically Operated Vehicle (ROV), the Victor 6000.

Its role will be to search for the Titan and to remove any obstacles that are stopping it from floating to the surface.

It will take two hours to prepare the ROV once it arrives and the operation is likely to take several more hours – and time is not on the side of a rescue operation.

But the head of the organisation that operates the Victor 6,000, Jan Opderbecke, of the French Research Institute for Exploitation of the Sea, told BBC News that “where there is still hope, we have to try”.

https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-us-canada-65967464?ns_mchannel=social&ns_source=twitter&ns_campaign=bbc_live&ns_linkname=6493182d1babaa614a472d7b%26Two%20hours%20to%20prepare%20the%20Victor%206000%262023-06-21T15%3A39%3A47.263Z&ns_fee=0&pinned_post_locator=urn:asset:f68e4112-d7d7-47e6-8854-fbeb022102c9&pinned_post_asset_id=6493182d1babaa614a472d7b&pinned_post_type=share

[RocketMan]

Great analysis,  dogmush, especially pointing out the variable bouyancy due to changing volume of the entire craft under various pressures.

On the joystick, I wondered if the tiny resistors or potentiometers (1/4 Watt, 1/2 Watt ?) would handle any substantial load for very long.  Even if used to control a fly-by-wire computer control.  I could just see him hooking them up to the control motors directly... "Hey, this works great!"

(Too much theory, not enough engineering.)

The Logitech F710 is a wireless controller that operates close to the Bluetooth frequencies.  The receiver is a little USB dongle.  I've found through experience that that dongle has to be pretty much line of sight and fairly close to the game pad for the pad to operate correctly.  It's also important to keep any Bluetooth devices several feet away from the game pad and receiver.  Any loss of signal or interference causes control problems.

[WLJ]

Maybe we'll get some answers

Press conference in 30 minutes
The US Coast Guard will share the latest on the search in 30 minutes, at 18:00 BST.
Captain Jamie Frederick, the First Coast Guard District response coordinator, will provide an update on the ongoing effort to find the missing submersible.
Stay with us for updates. You'll be able to stream live at the top of the page.

13:00 EST

https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-us-canada-65967464

[BobR]

There is a lot of speculation on the noise. With a CP-140 and possibly a P8 on scene if someone were to start banging for 3 minutes straight it would give them plenty of time to get a fix. A 5x6 sonobouy patern (5 rows of 6 bouys) with a 10 nautical mile spacing would give you a large area of coverage. If they are using bouys that you can get direction from you can plot from several bouys and get a pretty accurate fix, just ask Ivan from the Cold War in his submarine. Banging noises and other odd noises are often present in the ocean. I think they (the news and other ill informed spokespeople) should just say the search is continuing. In all reality unless they are found, even bobbing on the surface very soon there time is limited. Of course that assumes they did not have a catastrophic event.

bob

[230RN]

Thanks, RocketMan.  That (Reply # 108) would seem to eliminate any direct connection problems.

[WLJ]

Listening in on the press conference.

He doesn't know what the noise were and he's doesn't know about the 30 minute thing, just that the P-3 heard something. I suspected as much.
No new info otherwise so far.
Press keeps asking about the noise. It was noise basically is the answer.

I'm still thinking except for the investigation into what happened and possible recovery of debris this was over Sunday. Hope I'm wrong.

[MillCreek]

This diagram was published in today's Seattle Times: https://www.seattletimes.com/nation-world/nation/canadian-aircraft-has-detected-underwater-noises-in-search-for-missing-sub-near-titanic/

[WLJ]

More of the sub is/was a piece of junk we've been hearing but this caught my attention

With Loibl inside, the Titan travelled around the wreck twice and once even touched down on its deck, he said, before making the return journey.

That bothers me to no end, not only are they disturbing the wreck but are also adding needless risks to the lives of the passengers. If they did make it down to the Titanic they very well could be trapped by debris if this was routine.

'I went on Titan - it was a SUICIDE mission!': German who paid OceanGate to see Titanic wreck in 2021 says he was 'incredibly lucky' to make it after one sub 'didn't work', there were 'electrical problems' and a piece of the vessel FELL OFF
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12218125/German-paid-OceanGate-Titanic-wreck-2021-says-incredibly-lucky-make-it.html

[BobR]

Listening in on the press conference.

He doesn't know what the noise were and he's doesn't know about the 30 minute thing, just that the P-3 heard something. I suspected as much.

Theoretically, that noise could be in a sound tunnel and be a thousand miles, or more, away from the site. Just a nit-pick, the Canadians don't have P3s. They have the CP140 which when designed many years ago was a P3 airframe with S3 avionics. The USN no longer has any active squadrons with P3s, they have all switched to the P8. Even the training squadron in Jacksonville is sundowning their last P3 in a few days. But why would a Coastie know about other countries and our aircraft? Accuracy perhaps.

bob

[HankB]

. . . The CEO of OceanGate, which is operating the missing Titanic tourist submarine, explains that the company didn’t want to hire any experienced “50 year old white guys” because they weren’t “inspirational.”     

https://twitter.com/stillgray/status/1671372833979785217

So rather than hire The Skipper or even The Professor, they went with . . . Gilligan.

[WLJ]

Another press conference is about to start

We're set to hear from Horizon Maritime Services and Miawpukek Horizon representatives.

These are the groups behind the Polar Prince ship, which the Titan submersible launched from.

We're expecting a brief statement and will bring you updates as they happen.

https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-us-canada-65967464

[WLJ]

So rather than hire The Skipper or even The Professor, they went with . . . Gilligan.

Only if he is a person of color and buys his Bud Light at Target.

[MillCreek]

So rather than hire The Skipper or even The Professor, they went with . . . Gilligan.

Interesting feelings about experienced 50 year old white guys given that he was a 61 year old experienced white guy: https://oceangate.com/about/leadership/stockton-rush.html

[MechAg94]

As far as backups go, they can take any form.  However, going into a deadly situation like that, I would expect a system that has plenty of backups and fail safes to avoid getting stranded.  I don't know enough about this craft to know what went into it.  The design might have a lot of that covered.  And until or unless we find the craft, we won't know what happened. 

It would bother me that there is a potential to be floating on the surface and die of asphyxiation or CO2 poisoning because there is no way to get out of the sub. 

[AZRedhawk44]

As far as backups go, they can take any form.  However, going into a deadly situation like that, I would expect a system that has plenty of backups and fail safes to avoid getting stranded.  I don't know enough about this craft to know what went into it.  The design might have a lot of that covered.  And until or unless we find the craft, we won't know what happened. 

It would bother me that there is a potential to be floating on the surface and die of asphyxiation or CO2 poisoning because there is no way to get out of the sub.

Then again, if you could get out of the sub but your launch ship had lost track of you, how long do you think you'll survive bobbing around in arctic Atlantic seawater?

[RocketMan]

If and when things shift from rescue to recovery, I wonder if anyone will stick around the site to actually attempt a recovery?  Will any of the passengers' families or the company itself make any efforts, now or later, to recover of the sub?  Of course, this assumes that the sub isn't already in little tiny pieces scattered around the Titanic debris field.

[Northwoods]

As far as backups go, they can take any form.  However, going into a deadly situation like that, I would expect a system that has plenty of backups and fail safes to avoid getting stranded.  I don't know enough about this craft to know what went into it.  The design might have a lot of that covered.  And until or unless we find the craft, we won't know what happened. 

It would bother me that there is a potential to be floating on the surface and die of asphyxiation or CO2 poisoning because there is no way to get out of the sub. 

I seem to recall seeing a snorkel on the boat.  That would at least allow for fresh air if on the surface.

[Northwoods]

If and when things shift from rescue to recovery, I wonder if anyone will stick around the site to actually attempt a recovery?  Will any of the passengers' families or the company itself make any efforts, now or later, to recover of the sub?  Of course, this assumes that the sub isn't already in little tiny pieces scattered around the Titanic debris field.

I’d guess that will be a “no”.