Author Topic: Another "WTF Texas?" shooting by the cops  (Read 8722 times)

Ben

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Re: Another "WTF Texas?" shooting by the cops
« Reply #50 on: October 16, 2019, 06:42:11 PM »
If he had clearly identified himself as a police officer first maybe, but skulking around the back yard then yelling and shooting at the same time doesn’t a good shoot make in my book.

If someone didn't identify themselves as a cop, I would treat them as a criminal. Also a home invader yelling "This is the police" is not out of the question. I haven't seen anything on the lighting situation, but if there were only inside lights on, he saw her clear as a bell, and she likely wouldn't have known what was going on outside. Quite possibly would never have seen him before he shot.
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MillCreek

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Re: Another "WTF Texas?" shooting by the cops
« Reply #51 on: October 16, 2019, 07:14:52 PM »
I’ve done welfare checks you don’t skulk around the backyard like a prowler

I did the exact same back when I was in Fire/EMS.  Lots of knocking and ringing at the front door.  Only if there was no response would we start looking in the ground-level windows, trying ground-level doors, looking for things like piled up mail, papers or packages at the front door and talking to any nearby neighbors. On occasion, we would activate lights/siren to see if that woke anybody up or some other response.  We actually did find a few people who had expired at home and no one noticed, or someone had fallen and could not get to the door or to a phone.  Absent an emergency happening right in front of our eyes, we would always call the local PD if a forcible entry had to be made.

I myself have had a firearm in my hands inside my home while waiting to see if that bump in the night repeated itself such that I had to do something about it.  Until this case, I never even thought of the possibility that the local PD would shoot me through a window.
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cordex

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Re: Another "WTF Texas?" shooting by the cops
« Reply #52 on: October 16, 2019, 08:42:51 PM »
Donut Operator had the right of it.
If two cops responded, one should have gone around back and waited. The other should have pounded loudly and repeatedly on the front door or window and announced.  If the bad guy squirts out the back then there is someone to apprehend them. If the good guy responds no one gets shot.

MechAg94

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Re: Another "WTF Texas?" shooting by the cops
« Reply #53 on: October 16, 2019, 08:52:30 PM »
If someone didn't identify themselves as a cop, I would treat them as a criminal. Also a home invader yelling "This is the police" is not out of the question. I haven't seen anything on the lighting situation, but if there were only inside lights on, he saw her clear as a bell, and she likely wouldn't have known what was going on outside. Quite possibly would never have seen him before he shot.
Plus, he was shining a tactical light through the window.  She wouldn't have seen anything and likely didn't hear anything.
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MechAg94

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Re: Another "WTF Texas?" shooting by the cops
« Reply #54 on: October 16, 2019, 08:57:36 PM »
I'm guessing it depends on department SOPs.  Are cops authorized to enter a backyard during a non-criminal investigation?
Don't they need a warrant to start running around on someone's property?  Most especially without attempting to contact the resident first.  Just being a cop is not an automatic pass to search around people's back yards.  I don't even care if it was a criminal investigation. 

IMO, it is especially bad since there was an open door and they hadn't made any attempt to announce themselves.  If the purpose was to catch someone coming out the back door, why shine the tactical lights all over the place and into the window?  He wasn't thinking at all.
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T.O.M.

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Re: Another "WTF Texas?" shooting by the cops
« Reply #55 on: October 16, 2019, 09:16:28 PM »
There's a saying that bad cases make bad law.  This might end up being just such a case.  Can an officer go to the backyard to look through windows on a well-check?  Can an officer fire into a building at an unidentified person who has a weapon?  Must an officer identify himself before issuing commands?  If the officer is not in a legal position,  can he still claim self-defense? If the officer is trespassing and can use self defense here, can the next criminal/killer validly make the same claim?  God, this is a legal hornet's nest...
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MechAg94

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Re: Another "WTF Texas?" shooting by the cops
« Reply #56 on: October 16, 2019, 10:46:12 PM »
I don't know if those questions need to be answered or not.  It is really just bad judgement leading to the officer shooting a woman through the window of a home.  It doesn't have to go any further.  Would the officer's lawyer bring up some of that?  I don't know.  

Some of those questions are mine.  How much leeway are officers given in these situations.  The answer sometimes seems to be "whatever they can get away with".  When I see this stuff in these stories, I assume it is common.  
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zxcvbob

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Re: Another "WTF Texas?" shooting by the cops
« Reply #57 on: October 16, 2019, 11:19:36 PM »
Did he know it was just a welfare check, or did dispatch screw up the call and he thought it was a crime scene?  (we don't know that yet)
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makattak

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Re: Another "WTF Texas?" shooting by the cops
« Reply #58 on: October 17, 2019, 08:22:41 AM »
There's a saying that bad cases make bad law.  This might end up being just such a case.  Can an officer go to the backyard to look through windows on a well-check?  Can an officer fire into a building at an unidentified person who has a weapon?  Must an officer identify himself before issuing commands?  If the officer is not in a legal position,  can he still claim self-defense? If the officer is trespassing and can use self defense here, can the next criminal/killer validly make the same claim?  God, this is a legal hornet's nest...

I believe the saying is "Hard cases make bad law"


This is only a hard case if we want to give police officers even more leeway in abridging the rights of the people. He had no right or cause to be in that backyard acting like a prowler. At every opportunity, he and his partner did the wrong thing. At no point does any of their actions seem rational*- if they were planning to catch an intruder, the officer in the rear ought not be announcing his presence with a powerful flashlight. If they were planning on a "dynamic entry", why did they split up? If this were an actual welfare check, why didn't they knock on the door?

Further, the police officer made no effort to defuse the situation, just immediately started with the "Hands <BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM> up!" (Only a slight exaggeration, given that less than a second passed before he started shooting after shouting orders without even identifying himself at a window where he had no idea if he had been heard.)

This isn't a hard case. This is a stupid person who should never have been a police officer and he and the department will likely pay for it.

The officers' best defense is that they were bungling fools. And murdered a woman defending herself, her nephew, and her home because of it.


*While, from best reporting, the actions of the murdered woman seem completely rational and justified.
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Ben

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Re: Another "WTF Texas?" shooting by the cops
« Reply #59 on: October 17, 2019, 09:13:43 AM »
Did he know it was just a welfare check, or did dispatch screw up the call and he thought it was a crime scene?  (we don't know that yet)

Not that I'm trying to defend the officer, but this was something I alluded to in my first post in this topic. I'm very curious about how the call was transmitted to the field, and if there is some standard code for it that may or may not have been followed. I just don't get how "welfare check" (especially after reading Millcreek's hands on summary) would cause responding officers to go into default "get the bad guy" mode.

Again, not trying to defend the cop, but wondering if the department might not have some small procedural liability here.
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MechAg94

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Re: Another "WTF Texas?" shooting by the cops
« Reply #60 on: October 17, 2019, 09:17:59 AM »
Not that I'm trying to defend the officer, but this was something I alluded to in my first post in this topic. I'm very curious about how the call was transmitted to the field, and if there is some standard code for it that may or may not have been followed. I just don't get how "welfare check" (especially after reading Millcreek's hands on summary) would cause responding officers to go into default "get the bad guy" mode.

Again, not trying to defend the cop, but wondering if the department might not have some small procedural liability here.
I agree with you on that.  It is one of those things we just don't know yet.  I don't know if it would change the verdict, but it might help explain why they did what they did.
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T.O.M.

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Re: Another "WTF Texas?" shooting by the cops
« Reply #61 on: October 17, 2019, 05:38:37 PM »
If we assume for a moment that the press has gotten this all right, with no bias, fact changing, etc., I predict that the prosecution will work on the same theory they did with the Dallas case.  Officer in wrong place fired an unwarranted shot causing a death.  Defense is going to blame everyone from the department not giving proper training to the woman for pointing a  semi automatic death machine at someone outside without trying to even figure out who it is.  The defense will scream self defense over and over.  Defense will argue that a trespass is irrelevant, that anyone who draws a gun on a cop deserves to get shot.

Just my guess...
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HankB

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Re: Another "WTF Texas?" shooting by the cops
« Reply #62 on: October 17, 2019, 06:07:00 PM »
. . . Also a home invader yelling "This is the police" is not out of the question. . . .
A few years back there WERE a number of home invasions reported in both the Austin and Houston areas where exactly this happened. IIRC, some of the thugs even had T-shirts with the word "POLICE" prominently displayed - perfect to make the targeted victim hesitate just long enough for the home invader(s) to have their way.
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230RN

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Re: Another "WTF Texas?" shooting by the cops
« Reply #63 on: October 17, 2019, 06:55:24 PM »
A few years back there WERE a number of home invasions reported in both the Austin and Houston areas where exactly this happened. IIRC, some of the thugs even had T-shirts with the word "POLICE" prominently displayed - perfect to make the targeted victim hesitate just long enough for the home invader(s) to have their way.

A long history of that.

Shades of the St. Valentine's day massacre in 1929.  The hit team came in as cops.

To complete the illusion for any witnesses...

"Witnesses saw the fake police leading the other men at gunpoint out of the garage after the shooting."

"To give the appearance that everything was under control, the men in street clothes came out with their hands up, prodded by the two uniformed policemen."

(Wiki thereon.)

Terry

« Last Edit: October 18, 2019, 12:53:19 AM by 230RN »
WHATEVER YOUR DEFINITION OF "INFRINGE " IS, YOU SHOULDN'T BE DOING IT.

Firethorn

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Re: Another "WTF Texas?" shooting by the cops
« Reply #64 on: October 18, 2019, 01:33:36 PM »
A few years back there WERE a number of home invasions reported in both the Austin and Houston areas where exactly this happened. IIRC, some of the thugs even had T-shirts with the word "POLICE" prominently displayed - perfect to make the targeted victim hesitate just long enough for the home invader(s) to have their way.

Which is why I support full uniforms for police officers, which should be controlled items, much like military uniforms.

Blakenzy

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Re: Another "WTF Texas?" shooting by the cops
« Reply #65 on: October 18, 2019, 03:31:48 PM »
Too many police officers seem to dress casually with very informal identifiers.
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MechAg94

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Re: Another "WTF Texas?" shooting by the cops
« Reply #66 on: October 18, 2019, 03:40:19 PM »
Of course, everyone with velcro "POLICE" patches on their person MUST be assumed to be an officer even if you can't see them because they are shining 600 lumens in your eyes. 
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MechAg94

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Re: Another "WTF Texas?" shooting by the cops
« Reply #67 on: October 18, 2019, 03:41:44 PM »
If we assume for a moment that the press has gotten this all right, with no bias, fact changing, etc., I predict that the prosecution will work on the same theory they did with the Dallas case.  Officer in wrong place fired an unwarranted shot causing a death.  Defense is going to blame everyone from the department not giving proper training to the woman for pointing a  semi automatic death machine at someone outside without trying to even figure out who it is.  The defense will scream self defense over and over.  Defense will argue that a trespass is irrelevant, that anyone who draws a gun on a cop deserves to get shot.

Just my guess...
I was wondering if they would go with the negligent discharge to keep it at a manslaughter charge. 
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Ben

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Re: Another "WTF Texas?" shooting by the cops
« Reply #68 on: October 18, 2019, 03:46:45 PM »
Too many police officers seem to dress casually with very informal identifiers.

I see that in my little podunk town here. Kinda like they want to be tacticool. They all dress in your standard Fed attire of tactical khakis and navy blue polos. Even the guys staking out the speed traps on either side of town.
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Hawkmoon

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Re: Another "WTF Texas?" shooting by the cops
« Reply #69 on: October 19, 2019, 11:41:38 PM »
Not that I'm trying to defend the officer, but this was something I alluded to in my first post in this topic. I'm very curious about how the call was transmitted to the field, and if there is some standard code for it that may or may not have been followed. I just don't get how "welfare check" (especially after reading Millcreek's hands on summary) would cause responding officers to go into default "get the bad guy" mode.

Again, not trying to defend the cop, but wondering if the department might not have some small procedural liability here.

Apparently the call was NOT dispatched as a welfare check.

https://www.newser.com/story/281936/cop-who-killed-texas-woman-wasnt-doing-welfare-check.html

https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/16/us/police-response-fort-worth-shooting/index.html
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cordex

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Re: Another "WTF Texas?" shooting by the cops
« Reply #70 on: December 16, 2022, 08:01:51 AM »

MechAg94

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Re: Another "WTF Texas?" shooting by the cops
« Reply #71 on: December 16, 2022, 09:36:32 AM »
A result like this is the only way to get the attention of police trainers so cops don't do stupid stuff like this in the future.  He got off easy with manslaughter especially compared to the cop in Minnesota. 


That said, the idea of a cop trying to challenge someone through a closed window is idiotic. 
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RoadKingLarry

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Re: Another "WTF Texas?" shooting by the cops
« Reply #72 on: December 16, 2022, 09:39:51 AM »
Thanks for the update!
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MechAg94

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Re: Another "WTF Texas?" shooting by the cops
« Reply #73 on: December 16, 2022, 09:42:43 AM »
Yes, thanks for posting the update. 


I know it is just a defense attorney doing their job, but this sort of statement ticks me off especially considering the circumstances. 
Quote
During the defense attorney’s closing statements in which he portrayed Dean as acting within the norms of policing, lawyer Robert Gill told jurors that no one has the right to point a firearm at a peace officer.
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Hawkmoon

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Re: Another "WTF Texas?" shooting by the cops
« Reply #74 on: December 17, 2022, 01:48:27 PM »

I know it is just a defense attorney doing their job, but this sort of statement ticks me off especially considering the circumstances.

Quote
During the defense attorney’s closing statements in which he portrayed Dean as acting within the norms of policing, lawyer Robert Gill told jurors that no one has the right to point a firearm at a peace officer.

I would like to hope that a jury in Texas got a big chuckle out of that statement.
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