Poll

Is Edward Snowden a criminal, or a hero?

This guy is a true blue hero
26 (44.1%)
Criminal.  He violated his Top Secret clearance
1 (1.7%)
It's still Fistful's fault
8 (13.6%)
All 3
24 (40.7%)

Total Members Voted: 59

Author Topic: Snowden: Hero or Criminal?  (Read 54628 times)

Scout26

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Re: Snowden: Hero or Criminal?
« Reply #125 on: June 13, 2013, 11:15:46 PM »
Some days even my lucky rocketship underpants won't help.


Bring me my Broadsword and a clear understanding.
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roo_ster

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Re: Snowden: Hero or Criminal?
« Reply #126 on: June 13, 2013, 11:17:05 PM »
Here is an article from PopMech that explains just how this NSA thing could just crush US information companies.

Were I a foreign company seeking net services, I would be leery of any US provider.  The Russkies MAY be sniffing my traffic, but you know for certain the Yank spooks are.
Regards,

roo_ster

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Azrael256

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Re: Snowden: Hero or Criminal?
« Reply #127 on: June 15, 2013, 01:07:17 PM »
Were I a foreign company seeking net services, I would be leery of any US provider.  The Russkies MAY be sniffing my traffic, but you know for certain the Yank spooks are.

Evidently you have not built a datacenter in Moscow.

They bring in their own black box, hook it up where they want, and you will like it.  It's not hidden in a back room or a basement.  It surprises no one there.

MicroBalrog

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RocketMan

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Re: Snowden: Hero or Criminal?
« Reply #129 on: June 15, 2013, 08:57:19 PM »
http://news.cnet.com/8301-13578_3-57589495-38/nsa-admits-listening-to-u.s-phone-calls-without-warrants/

But there's no wiretapping... none?

I am shocked, absolutely shocked I tell you!
No, wait...I'm not.  Anybody here think .fed_gov is not out of control?
I wonder what Ms. Wolfe thinks about now.
If there really was intelligent life on other planets, we'd be sending them foreign aid.

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Liberals believe one should never let reason, logic and facts get in the way of a good emotional argument.

Balog

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Re: Snowden: Hero or Criminal?
« Reply #130 on: June 16, 2013, 01:07:16 AM »
Yes, the agreements you sign do allow them to give ALREADY LEGAL TO GIVE metadata to government.

CSD is correct, metadata (ie phone LUDS) are legal to acquire without a warrant.

You say "I doubt it" when it comes to what is allowed or not, meaning you don't know and haven't checked, thereby PROVING MY POINT THAT YOU DONT KNOW AND ARE STILL EXPRESSING AN ISSUE WITH SOMETHING THAT YOU CAN'T DEFINE.

Do you know what information the NSA processes?  No.  Do you know what the legal protections are?  No.

Do you know that for domestic communication between two US citizens, any content is protected unless a warrant is issued?  Apparently not.

So in other words, I'm scolding because everyone is outraged over something THAT ISN'T FREAKING HAPPENING, because they don't understand, and are calling this TRAITOR a "hero" for revealing something that they don't understand, when such things actually don't affect YOU but DO affect our ability to do NON DOMESTIC (ie finding bad guys) activities, and thus compromise sources and methods, which are the things you protect most.

So you chastise me for scolding, then go and PROVE my scolding was valid--I scolded the expressing of outrage when you don't understand the actual issue....which you just admitted.

Maybe you don't get it, I am a HUGE libertarian, and if what you describe we're actually occurring to the extent you see, to believe, I would quit my job immediately, and so would, well, about 80-90% of the intelligence community.  You spit on the people that do the job, by implying THEY are compromising their oaths.

Now, IM going to simply shut up, and let you all just rant and rave, and be outraged, since education is worthless when you don't even have the ability to on your own look at both sides of an issue, and would rather knee-jerk your way like a gun control advocate to a conclusion spoon fed to you by the same media you deride out the other side of your mouth.

TL:DR.   F this thread.

So just to recap, all domestic wiretapping requires a warrant, %90 of the intelligence community would quit if this was violated, and we should all just shut up and trust our betters at the NSA to take care of us. Care to explain this Senate testimony then?

http://m.cnet.com/news/nsa-admits-listening-to-us-phone-calls-without-warrants/57589495
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roo_ster

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Re: Snowden: Hero or Criminal?
« Reply #131 on: June 16, 2013, 02:13:00 AM »
So just to recap, all domestic wiretapping requires a warrant, %90 of the intelligence community would quit if this was violated, and we should all just shut up and trust our betters at the NSA to take care of us. Care to explain this Senate testimony then?

http://m.cnet.com/news/nsa-admits-listening-to-us-phone-calls-without-warrants/57589495

If you ask that question, the terrorists have won.  Why do you hate America?

More seriously, regimes' domestic intel & security apparatuses rarely have difficulty staffing up while the regime is perceived as in control.  Plus good pay and the security of knowing "Who(1)" one is.


(1) Referring to the old Lenin response to the purpose of politics.  "Who?  Whom?" was his response.  IOW, "Who does what to Whom?"  Who is the stuck pig and who is the pig sticker?  WHo is getting buggered and who is the buggerer?

Regards,

roo_ster

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----G.K. Chesterton

birdman

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Re: Snowden: Hero or Criminal?
« Reply #132 on: June 16, 2013, 08:10:23 AM »
So just to recap, all domestic wiretapping requires a warrant, %90 of the intelligence community would quit if this was violated, and we should all just shut up and trust our betters at the NSA to take care of us. Care to explain this Senate testimony then?

http://m.cnet.com/news/nsa-admits-listening-to-us-phone-calls-without-warrants/57589495

What exactly did the NSA admit?

The quote from the article is:
Quote

Rep. Jerrold Nadler, a New York Democrat, disclosed this week that during a secret briefing to members of Congress, he was told that the contents of a phone call could be accessed "simply based on an analyst deciding that."


So IF the congressman is correct, it appears they admitted they COULD, not that they did, or did so in any significant capacity.

Also, it isn't clear (since its referring to a meeting and testimony that isn't published) if the listening in question was to a call between two Americans both inside the US (the only situation requiring a legal aspect), or to any other combination of citizenship or location of the call participants.  If either party is a non-citizen OR outside the US, a warrant or other legal permission is not required, at least according to what -should- occur.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2013, 08:29:30 AM by birdman »

MicroBalrog

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Re: Snowden: Hero or Criminal?
« Reply #133 on: June 16, 2013, 08:33:38 AM »
If this is what the law says, then perhaps we should be outraged even if the activities are legal.
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birdman

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Re: Snowden: Hero or Criminal?
« Reply #134 on: June 16, 2013, 08:39:44 AM »
If this is what the law says, then perhaps we should be outraged even if the activities are legal.

Outraged that if you aren't a citizen, or if the communication is foreign?  Um, why?  "Unreasonable search" is prohibited by the constitution for citizens, legal residents, and only applies to the United States, so what you are saying is we should be outraged that we don't extend our privacy protections to everyone else on the planet, regardless of the impact on intelligence?

Ron

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Re: Snowden: Hero or Criminal?
« Reply #135 on: June 16, 2013, 09:50:10 AM »
Liberty is incompatible with Leviathan.

When the one increases the other always seems to decrease.
For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

birdman

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Re: Snowden: Hero or Criminal?
« Reply #136 on: June 16, 2013, 09:56:20 AM »
Liberty is incompatible with Leviathan.

When the one increases the other always seems to decrease.

Agreed.

The reason I am pushing back / debating this the way I am is I don't believe the perception of the liberty lost here matches with reality, and outrage should be better directed at the more significant and damaging losses of liberty first.  The IRS and AP things are far worse, far more damaging to our liberty, were done not even to obtain some positive goal, and I believe this NSA thing is functioning too well as a distractor.  Notice how the news cycle has shifted, and the egregious politically motivated assault on liberty by the IRS is now back-burner, not to mention the horrifyingly bad immigration bill being debated that is barely in most american's peripheral vision, let alone being looked at carefully.

Has anyone considered the  [tinfoil] perspective that this is a less-political "scandal" that is taking attention from the more damaging (to liberty -and- to the administration) other scandals?

SADShooter

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Re: Snowden: Hero or Criminal?
« Reply #137 on: June 16, 2013, 10:20:21 AM »
Agreed.

The reason I am pushing back / debating this the way I am is I don't believe the perception of the liberty lost here matches with reality, and outrage should be better directed at the more significant and damaging losses of liberty first.  The IRS and AP things are far worse, far more damaging to our liberty, were done not even to obtain some positive goal, and I believe this NSA thing is functioning too well as a distractor.  Notice how the news cycle has shifted, and the egregious politically motivated assault on liberty by the IRS is now back-burner, not to mention the horrifyingly bad immigration bill being debated that is barely in most american's peripheral vision, let alone being looked at carefully.

Has anyone considered the  [tinfoil] perspective that this is a less-political "scandal" that is taking attention from the more damaging (to liberty -and- to the administration) other scandals?

Absolutely. And I think there's a valid concern. I also see an element of compounding. I'm less concerned with technical staff at NSA playing fast and loose with security data than I am with political appointees doing it, when we already have evidence that they will use 1) fedgov power to harass and undermine political opposition, (IRS/DoJ/EPA, et al.) and 2) manipulate international security and diplomacy for political reasons, e.g. Benghazi & Fast & Furious. In the latter instances, people who put their asses on the line died because their government broke faith with them. :mad:

So, is NSA a distraction from the main threat? Maybe. But is it reasonable for you to suggest it poses no danger in light of the pattern of separate abuses you've outlined? Tech staff at NSA may follow the letter of the law. Does James Clapper? Eric Holder?
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birdman

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Re: Snowden: Hero or Criminal?
« Reply #138 on: June 16, 2013, 12:02:26 PM »
So, is NSA a distraction from the main threat? Maybe. But is it reasonable for you to suggest it poses no danger in light of the pattern of separate abuses you've outlined? Tech staff at NSA may follow the letter of the law. Does James Clapper? Eric Holder?

To point, if you are concerned with high level (holder, eg al) abusing the IC for political purposes, it wouldn't matter what the capability of the NSA was w.r.t. either limited gathering or vacuuming up everything, such crap has happened in the past (church commission was the result) when the capability was minimal, be it NSA or otherwise, and will undoubtably happen again.  That being said, the graph-theory capabilities of metadata vacuuming are far more useful for finding bad guys than politically targeting domestically, think about it, in general, ones political "enemies" are quite easy to find, since their whole opposition to you is to convince other americans to be in opposition to you.  Bad guys, not so much.  So whether you had the metadata or not, corrupt pols could still abuse the IC when it comes to specific collection, but not having metadata makes finding unknown targets harder.  Do you see what I mean?

Also, another point, people seem to interpret things as "listening to my phone calls" or "reading my email"...think about that for a moment.  The US generates roughly 10 million hours of phone calls, several billion text messages, a few billion emails, and about 100 petabytes of data traffic per day, the rest of the world combined, about double that.  The reason metadata is useful is so you don't HAVE to look at the content to determine things of interest (bad guys), since if you did, you couldn't. 

As a good example: just to archive the above would require 100 racks of enterprise storage PER DAY, using a server infrastructure -bigger- than google (everyone makes a big deal about the supposed huge data center in Utah for the NSA, when it is dinky compared to google), and even if you had 10,000 analysts you could only "listen" or "read" to less than 1/1000th of the traffic, and that's if they did nothing else.

So my point again is any system can be abused, but the part most likely to be abused (the targeted collection) isn't what people are making a big deal about, and has pretty much always existed.

So again, the IC really doesn't care about American to American (ie "yours") emails, phone calls, tweets, web searches, etc, and in fact, if everyone stopped those things, it would make their job a lot easier and cheaper. 

MicroBalrog

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Re: Snowden: Hero or Criminal?
« Reply #139 on: June 16, 2013, 12:09:42 PM »
Outraged that if you aren't a citizen, or if the communication is foreign?  Um, why?  "Unreasonable search" is prohibited by the constitution for citizens, legal residents, and only applies to the United States, so what you are saying is we should be outraged that we don't extend our privacy protections to everyone else on the planet, regardless of the impact on intelligence?

Even if we assume it happened as you describe (I am not certain), why should we default - in a conversation between a citizen and non-citizen - to the worst possible standard?
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MicroBalrog

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Re: Snowden: Hero or Criminal?
« Reply #140 on: June 16, 2013, 12:11:59 PM »
Quote
Also, another point, people seem to interpret things as "listening to my phone calls" or "reading my email"...think about that for a moment.  The US generates roughly 10 million hours of phone calls, several billion text messages, a few billion emails, and about 100 petabytes of data traffic per day, the rest of the world combined, about double that.  The reason metadata is useful is so you don't HAVE to look at the content to determine things of interest (bad guys), since if you did, you couldn't. 

If anything, metadata analysis is far more concerning than actual 'readig' of emails.

I can entirely see - if not now, then within years - the evolution of analysis software that will trigger alerts to law enforcement or even regulators when 'suspicious behavior' profiles are triggered by someone's movements, or communications, or whatnot.
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SADShooter

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Re: Snowden: Hero or Criminal?
« Reply #141 on: June 16, 2013, 12:46:13 PM »
I think the metadata shipped has sailed, and there is no calling it back. I don't disagree with you that the NSA "scandal" may have lesser immediate political implications than the others. It is, however, coincidental to them, suggesting a possible pattern. The real question, as Micro observes, is where do we go from here? What guarantee have we that the safeguards in existence today won't be obviated by coming technological advances, or ignored by less scrupulous leadership?

Information is power, and power is subject to abuse, often with seemingly benevolent motives.
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roo_ster

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Re: Snowden: Hero or Criminal?
« Reply #142 on: June 16, 2013, 01:16:07 PM »
I think the metadata shipped has sailed, and there is no calling it back. I don't disagree with you that the NSA "scandal" may have lesser immediate political implications than the others. It is, however, coincidental to them, suggesting a possible pattern. The real question, as Micro observes, is where do we go from here? What guarantee have we that the safeguards in existence today won't be obviated by coming technological advances, or ignored by less scrupulous leadership?

Information is power, and power is subject to abuse, often with seemingly benevolent motives.

Just as we regained some 2nd amendment liberties, we can regain 4th amendment liberties and reduce leviathan a bit.  So, I would be all in favor of activism to declare such collection illegal and a felony.
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roo_ster

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birdman

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Re: Snowden: Hero or Criminal?
« Reply #143 on: June 16, 2013, 01:34:19 PM »
Just as we regained some 2nd amendment liberties, we can regain 4th amendment liberties and reduce leviathan a bit.  So, I would be all in favor of activism to declare such collection illegal and a felony.

Collection without a warrant or equivalent -IS- illegal, and a felony.

As for metadata, well, its not yours to give, nor is it yours to restrict, its owned by your phone company (for your usage stats and other phone metadata), your Internet provider (for browser queries), the software provider (for data mining on free services like gmail) or a telco (for IP routing information).

So unless you want to host all your own stuff, and provide your own telco services, you actually can't restrict access to the data in question, beyond what is specified in your EULA with those providers. 

The leviathan to reign in is -who- provides the information...concerned about metadata?  Start a telco that refuses to supply any information to anybody (good luck) or only under specific (ie "data on this person") request with a warrant (much better chance).  Also host your own email, etc, rent some dark fiber, and peer directly with who you want to exchange data with, and do it in an encrypted and protected basis.

MicroBalrog

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Re: Snowden: Hero or Criminal?
« Reply #144 on: June 16, 2013, 01:37:01 PM »

So unless you want to host all your own stuff, and provide your own telco services, you actually can't restrict access to the data in question, beyond what is specified in your EULA with those providers.  

It is quite easy to restrict, actually.

Here:

"State authority X is prohibited to use any of the funding appropriated under this bill to make copies of metadata, on pain of felony prosecutions of the officials involved. Also, NSA agents are to wear purple shirts while on the job, equipped with blinking lights no smaller than X millimeters across."

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birdman

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Re: Snowden: Hero or Criminal?
« Reply #145 on: June 16, 2013, 02:11:47 PM »
It is quite easy to restrict, actually.

Here:

"State authority X is prohibited to use any of the funding appropriated under this bill to make copies of metadata, on pain of felony prosecutions of the officials involved. Also, NSA agents are to wear purple shirts while on the job, equipped with blinking lights no smaller than X millimeters across."



Any metadata?  Even foreign?  Copies meaning what?  Kept for how long? (Nano-seconds?)

So on that path, lets say a state authority can't keep the data...your provider does, meaning that with a warrant, a state authority can still access it (in other words, the way it is now) But then what, they can't keep it?  So how would you perform a law enforcement action or intelligence gathering action?  Seems like you effectively reduce those activities to pre-1960's effectiveness for the sole purpose of eliminating an intrusion that you don't like, but can't describe its negative impact other than its potential impact, and even then, the potentiality of concern is potentially more egregious for the private usage, rather than public, and actually presupposes a capability that likely doesn't even exist.

roo_ster

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Re: Snowden: Hero or Criminal?
« Reply #146 on: June 16, 2013, 03:46:48 PM »
Quote
The National Security Agency has acknowledged in a new classified briefing that it does not need court authorization to listen to domestic phone calls.

Quote
f the NSA wants "to listen to the phone," an analyst's decision is sufficient, without any other legal authorization required, Nadler said he learned. "I was rather startled," said Nadler, an attorney and congressman who serves on the House Judiciary committee.

Not only does this disclosure shed more light on how the NSA's formidable eavesdropping apparatus works domestically, it also suggests the Justice Department has secretly interpreted federal surveillance law to permit thousands of low-ranking analysts to eavesdrop on phone calls.

Because the same legal standards that apply to phone calls also apply to e-mail messages, text messages, and instant messages, Nadler's disclosure indicates the NSA analysts could also access the contents of Internet communications without going before a court and seeking approval.

Quote
McConnell said during a separate congressional appearance around the same time that he believed the president had the constitutional authority, no matter what the law actually says, to order domestic spying without warrants.

Doesn't look like any distinction needs to be made before Joe Eavesdropper dives into content.  Because in many cases JE can not know the ID of Tx or Rx until after wading through content(1).  Did not someone make that point upthread? 

An analogy would be a LEO busting down some interesting house's door, getting an ID on the resident, and if the resident proves to be in the class of folk denied civil liberties, all is OK.  If not, then well, JE had the best of intentions, I am sure.  And besides, if the person who supposedly has civil rights has nothing to hide, what is the big deal?  Oh well, when making omelettes, what are a few doors or hard fought for civil liberties?



(1) Unless there is a legitimate warrant that complies with the 4th Amendment, which would require that measures be taken to ensure the surveillance targets only the commo (implying tx & rx) of the person under suspicion.  You know, like before the mass-hoovering begins.  Little things like identifying the specific electronic devices he uses, his residence, and such.  Almost like real police/CI work done in accord with COTUS. Yes, it does sound quaint.



Collection without a warrant or equivalent -IS- illegal, and a felony.

As for metadata, well, its not yours to give, nor is it yours to restrict, its owned by your phone company (for your usage stats and other phone metadata), your Internet provider (for browser queries), the software provider (for data mining on free services like gmail) or a telco (for IP routing information).

So unless you want to host all your own stuff, and provide your own telco services, you actually can't restrict access to the data in question, beyond what is specified in your EULA with those providers. 

The leviathan to reign in is -who- provides the information...concerned about metadata?  Start a telco that refuses to supply any information to anybody (good luck) or only under specific (ie "data on this person") request with a warrant (much better chance).  Also host your own email, etc, rent some dark fiber, and peer directly with who you want to exchange data with, and do it in an encrypted and protected basis.

What you are calling a warrant is nothing more than a bit of paper behind which lurk men with guns who will shoot you in the face, given persistent non-compliance.  If it were an actual warrant, it would satisfy the requirements of the 4th Amendment.  My suggestion is merely to make the law in accord with the COTUS.  Make it easier for those currently breaking their oaths to keep them(1).  MicroBalrog's formulation is a nice start.

Police and CI work in a free country is not supposed to be easy.  Read the COTUS.  It gives the breaks to the citizen and provides obstacles for gov't to surmount.  Just about every time, the citizen gets the benefit of the doubt and gov't gets to pound sand.

That metadata is also not the government's to insist upon without a warrant in compliance with the 4th Amendment.  Laws enacted to bend telcos to gov't will and protect telcos from customers' ire are every bit as illegitimate as the initial illegitimate demand.

And there is one whole lot more peril possible from fed.gov than any corporation, given misuse of this data.



(1) Which is a great part of the problem.  Nobody reads the COTUS or takes it seriously.  And oaths to uphold same are meaningless to people who have an empty space inside where their honor & integrity might have been.





And the hilarious part is that this has been enacted to counter a threat an order of magnitude less lethal to American citizens than than automobile accidents.  And the cherry on top the confection of absurdity is that these unconstitutional and unAmerican actions are directed by default not at orthodox islam, which got lucky in 2001, but against the American citizenry.  Orthodox muslims and their institutions receive greater protection from these actions than average citizens.  This is the sort of thing you just can not make up.



Regards,

roo_ster

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Scout26

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Re: Snowden: Hero or Criminal?
« Reply #147 on: June 16, 2013, 04:52:11 PM »
I guess I'm one of those crazy Liberal/Tea Partiers that believe that modern communications like e-mail, phone calls, text messages fall under the old fashioned term "papers, and effects".

Quote
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.


And here's an interesting tidbit:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution#Exclusionary_rule

Quote
The rule has been held not to apply in the following circumstances:

    probation or parole revocation hearings;[53] tax hearings;[54]
    deportation hearings;[55]
    military discharge proceedings;[56] child protective proceedings;[57]
    sentencing hearings;[citation needed]
    evidence seized from a common carrier;[58]
    evidence collected by U.S. Customs agents;[59]
    evidence seized by probation or parole officers;[60]
    evidence seized outside the United States;[citation needed]
    evidence illegally seized by a "private actor" (i.e., not a governmental employee);[61] (I'd guess that means a private contractor)
    and illegally seized evidence used to impeach the defendant's testimony.
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Sweet memories to drive us on,
for the motherland.

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Snowden: Hero or Criminal?
« Reply #148 on: June 16, 2013, 05:04:36 PM »
a threat an order of magnitude less lethal to American citizens than than automobile accidents.  And the cherry on top the confection of absurdity is that these unconstitutional and unAmerican actions are directed by default not at orthodox islam, which got lucky in 2001, but against the American citizenry.

really?   http://www.amazon.com/Allahs-Bomb-Islamic-Nuclear-Weapons/dp/B001QCX5WG
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/concoughlin/100170946/mi6-exposes-the-truth-about-irans-quest-for-nuclear-weapons/

and i am of the opinion we got lucky.  that thats all they did
i know what i could put together if so motivated and think its foolish to pretend someone else couldn't too. especially if they are willing to die too
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

birdman

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Re: Snowden: Hero or Criminal?
« Reply #149 on: June 16, 2013, 06:33:04 PM »
I guess I'm one of those crazy Liberal/Tea Partiers that believe that modern communications like e-mail, phone calls, text messages fall under the old fashioned term "papers, and effects".


And here's an interesting tidbit:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution#Exclusionary_rule


Actually scout, the common carrier exception is the most apt, compared to the illegal private one.  The reason why, as I've pointed out is you have no ownership of the metadata, as you freely communicate that in public (the nature of how the routing is done), it is owned by the carrier, and thus it isn't "unreasonable".

As I've said, if you want to have true 4th amendment protections on something, don't relinquish ownership of it.  Otherwise, its a civil matter of whether the contract was violated, not a COTUS matter.