Poll

Is Edward Snowden a criminal, or a hero?

This guy is a true blue hero
26 (44.1%)
Criminal.  He violated his Top Secret clearance
1 (1.7%)
It's still Fistful's fault
8 (13.6%)
All 3
24 (40.7%)

Total Members Voted: 59

Author Topic: Snowden: Hero or Criminal?  (Read 54627 times)

Jamisjockey

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Re: Snowden: Hero or Criminal?
« Reply #200 on: June 24, 2013, 09:20:49 AM »
The more unfriendly countries he visits, the more inclined I am to say 'criminal'.
JD

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Marnoot

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Re: Snowden: Hero or Criminal?
« Reply #201 on: June 24, 2013, 10:28:16 AM »
The more unfriendly countries he visits, the more inclined I am to say 'criminal'.

This. I can't help but note that after leaking that the goobermint is spying on us and not being transparent, he's seeking refuge in countries that do significantly more spying on their own citizens, and are orders of magnitude less transparent.

Jamisjockey

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Re: Snowden: Hero or Criminal?
« Reply #202 on: June 24, 2013, 10:46:32 AM »
He gave the Chinese intel on our spying on them including IP addresses we use to hack into them.  If that's not treason, then slap my ass and call me sally, because I don't know what is.
He's released information that the American people needed to know.  But he still needs to have a sack put over his head, get whisked out of whatever shithole country is harboring him, and wake up in a federal courthouse.
JD

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TommyGunn

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Re: Snowden: Hero or Criminal?
« Reply #203 on: June 24, 2013, 10:51:21 AM »
Our government's responses to Snowden just needs a "Yakkety Sax" soundtrack. 

Ha ha!   It could be represented graphically by a dot moving around on a map being chased by blue uniform with badges dots, zig-zagging erratically across a map of the world, to "Yakety Sax."
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Re: Snowden: Hero or Criminal?
« Reply #204 on: June 24, 2013, 10:51:46 AM »
This. I can't help but note that after leaking that the goobermint is spying on us and not being transparent, he's seeking refuge in countries that do significantly more spying on their own citizens, and are orders of magnitude less transparent.
Those are the countries who don't much care for extradition treaties. And if he expects to take refuge in some of those places, you can be damn sure a bit of treason will be the entry fee.

Jamisjockey

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Re: Snowden: Hero or Criminal?
« Reply #205 on: June 24, 2013, 10:57:02 AM »
Those are the countries who don't much care for extradition treaties. And if he expects to take refuge in some of those places, you can be damn sure a bit of treason will be the entry fee.

Which kills any credibility he has to me.  Is the cost of what he's selling out worth what he revealed to us?
JD

 The price of a lottery ticket seems to be the maximum most folks are willing to risk toward the dream of becoming a one-percenter. “Robert Hollis”

HankB

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Re: Snowden: Hero or Criminal?
« Reply #206 on: June 24, 2013, 12:46:14 PM »
I'm very sympathetic to releasing the info on how many tens of millions of Americans are being tracked & surveilled - I see nothing wrong with blowing the whistle on Big Brother looking over everyone's shoulders just because he can, and I'm highly skeptical of BB's claims that he's not reading emails, not listening to phone calls, and only looking for "patterns of metadata" or something of the sort, especially in light of recent events involving misuse of government power for political purposes.

BUT . . . as information is coming out in regard to Snowden "leaking" info about how we spy on foreigners in other countries, my support for him is quickly dwindling. Now, if it's just a case of "We're looking at you" . . . so what? It's to be ASSUMED that EVERY country is keeping an eye on everyone else, so his assertions that we do in fact spy on everyone (including allies) is pretty insignificant.

But if it involves releasing new details of the methods we use . . . or confirming what we've learned . . . uh uh, that's crossing a line no American should cross.
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roo_ster

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Re: Snowden: Hero or Criminal?
« Reply #207 on: June 24, 2013, 01:20:10 PM »
All the things that Snowden might be are not mutually exclusive.

Which kills any credibility he has to me.  Is the cost of what he's selling out worth what he revealed to us?

The PRC already knew we were hammering them.  As they hammer us.  If Snowden "revealed nothing not already known to people who followed the PATRIOT ACT debates," (as some folk argue) the same applies to his "revelation" that we snoop at the PRC. 

So, what is the cost of revealing data already in the wild? Realistically, some folk who assumed (mistakenly) that US gov't did not go after PRC net targets have been butthurt. 

As to how we snoop...again, the PATRIOT ACT debate was informative.  Just cut out all the BS happy-talk about requiring any sort of oversight or respect for the COTUS.  Plus, all the foreign traffic running through the net backbone located CONUS.  While the hardware requirements and implementation for this sort of thing are impressive and daunting, how it is being done is not so crazy sophisticated that a sharp chinaman couldn't suss it out.

Those are the countries who don't much care for extradition treaties. And if he expects to take refuge in some of those places, you can be damn sure a bit of treason will be the entry fee.

Most decent countries have extradition treaties with the USA.  That leaves the indecent countries.

Snowden's utility at this point is little more than as a symbol and a thumb in the eye of Uncle Sam.  Were he to have been compromised and kept working at NSA, he could have done some real damage.  He might have been able to do damage in the few days/hours when gov't still did not know it was him.  The moment he opened his mouth to the Guardian, his value as a hard intel asset to a foreign power went "poof."  Remember: "Tier 1 Help Desk," not "inner circle planning operations."



Still, it is possible he managed to smuggle something useful out of the NSA and he means to exchange that for a safe haven.  He could be whistleblower and criminal and traitor.  They all push up against some mighty thin lines. 



Regards,

roo_ster

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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Re: Snowden: Hero or Criminal?
« Reply #208 on: June 24, 2013, 01:50:10 PM »
At this point I am far from sure he wasn't compromised and equally unsure the total extent of the damage.

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roo_ster

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Re: Re: Snowden: Hero or Criminal?
« Reply #209 on: June 24, 2013, 02:26:48 PM »
At this point I am far from sure he wasn't compromised and equally unsure the total extent of the damage.

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I would need some serious supporting evidence, due to the way this has played out, to buy that.  Besides, not even US gov't is claiming that.

If he were compromised as an employee of the NSA, I expect he would have dropped off the map, not spoken with Glenn Greenwald.  We would not know about him unless he was nabbed and went on trial.  Surfacing in HK and spilling the beans would make it harder to get to a safe haven and spend any filthy lucre obtained betraying Uncle Sam.  Hard to suck down fruity drinks on the beach in luxurious obscurity when everyone with a TV or net connection knows what you look like.

Whistleblowers are usually odd personality types and his behavior, being as it is non-optimal for him, tends to support that. There are many smarter plays he could have made if you are correct.

I am sure more will come out.  We will see. 
Regards,

roo_ster

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MechAg94

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Re: Snowden: Hero or Criminal?
« Reply #210 on: June 24, 2013, 02:58:25 PM »
I find it hard to label him as a hero or innocent, but I do get a bit bent out of shape when I see oath-breaking politicians talk about stringing him up or locking him away for the rest of his life.  It doesn't mean he is an innocent whistle blower, but I am reserving judgement on that.

I also appreciate the point I heard that the reason he had to go to foreign media to break this story is none of the Obama fan-boys in the mainstream media would have given this story much play. 
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Re: Snowden: Hero or Criminal?
« Reply #211 on: June 24, 2013, 05:20:06 PM »
I would need some serious supporting evidence, due to the way this has played out, to buy that.  Besides, not even US gov't is claiming that.

If he were compromised as an employee of the NSA, I expect he would have dropped off the map, not spoken with Glenn Greenwald.  We would not know about him unless he was nabbed and went on trial.  Surfacing in HK and spilling the beans would make it harder to get to a safe haven and spend any filthy lucre obtained betraying Uncle Sam.  Hard to suck down fruity drinks on the beach in luxurious obscurity when everyone with a TV or net connection knows what you look like.

Whistleblowers are usually odd personality types and his behavior, being as it is non-optimal for him, tends to support that. There are many smarter plays he could have made if you are correct.

I am sure more will come out.  We will see. 


you presume hes rational? he confessed in public to giving the chinese the info. and now admits/claims he got the nsa job with the intent to "expose " them.
hes questionable on so many levels.  including some of his claims about his life
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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roo_ster

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Re: Snowden: Hero or Criminal?
« Reply #212 on: June 24, 2013, 11:08:20 PM »
CSD:

What you wrote neither buttresses your previous post nor answers anything in my post.

If we assume irrationality, any action he takes, no matter how deleterious to his position, can be counted as support of one's opinion of him.  Anyone's opinion, even diametrically opposed opinions.

I find the following post closely mirrors my thoughts on Snowden.  But note the last sentence.  What we think of Snowden or his actual motivations are minuscule relative to the significance of the NSA program and its offenses against the 4th Amendment.

http://pjmedia.com/instapundit/171311/

Quote

THE CORRECT ATTITUDE ON SNOWDEN: “I doubt everything.”


As I wrote when the story was new, “There’s a good chance that even Snowden doesn’t really know who he’s working for. Bear that in mind.” For all we know he may be a catspaw in an elaborate scheme to get disinformation, or malware, into Chinese or Russian intelligence. (Or for all he knows).

As Rep. Frank Underwood comments, sagely: “What a martyr craves more than anything is a sword to fall on. So you sharpen the blade, hold it at just the right angle, and…3,2,1… #Snowden.” But then, he’s fictional himself.

And none of this has much to do with whether we think the NSA spying program can be trusted not to be abused — except that, if Snowden really is an anti-American traitor, well, then, the NSA, which put him in this position, doesn’t look like it’s up to the job of policing itself.

Here's thorny quesiton:
Assume the worst about Snowden. He was paid in baby harp seal pelts by commie Nork queer abortionists to infiltrate the NSA and reveal in living color the full extent of its surveillance against America.

Does it matter what a slimy SOB he is if he manages to make America aware of the NSA's blatant, horrific, monumental-beyond-belief offenses against the 4th Amendment?

Follow-up question: Still assuming the worst about Snowden, is he any worse than the people who implemented the NSA Panopticon? 
Regards,

roo_ster

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MicroBalrog

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Re: Snowden: Hero or Criminal?
« Reply #213 on: June 25, 2013, 03:42:05 AM »
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

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Regolith

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Re: Snowden: Hero or Criminal?
« Reply #214 on: June 25, 2013, 03:44:48 AM »


And some of them may have to take the same exact plane back to Moscow again (instead of, say, hopping on a flight to Canada), as they didn't have the required Cuban journalist visas and the Cuban government wouldn't let them off the plane.

 :rofl:
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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Gewehr98

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Re: Snowden: Hero or Criminal?
« Reply #216 on: June 26, 2013, 04:23:39 PM »
He's a hero in my book just for doing that to the CNN journalists!   :lol:
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Snowden: Hero or Criminal?
« Reply #217 on: June 26, 2013, 04:27:38 PM »
He's a hero in my book just for doing that to the CNN journalists!   :lol:
its a nice one  except he did go to russia
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

Perd Hapley

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Re: Snowden: Hero or Criminal?
« Reply #218 on: June 26, 2013, 11:12:04 PM »
He's a hero in my book just for doing that to the CNN journalists!   :lol:

Agreed.

And, I love this thread for giving someone an excuse to use "Panopticon" conversationally.
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seeker_two

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Re: Snowden: Hero or Criminal?
« Reply #219 on: June 27, 2013, 04:59:13 PM »
Snowden was tasked by foreign powers to provide information to discredit the Obama Administration and weaken US standing internationally. Not only did he succeed in that, he showed the American people important crimes the gov't perpetrated against its own citizenry.  For that, the American public owes Snowden a debt of gratitude...which can be expressed at his espionage trial.

He's not a traitor....just another spy....

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Balog

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Re: Snowden: Hero or Criminal?
« Reply #220 on: June 27, 2013, 05:03:02 PM »
Snowden was tasked by foreign powers to provide information to discredit the Obama Administration and weaken US standing internationally. Not only did he succeed in that, he showed the American people important crimes the gov't perpetrated against its own citizenry.  For that, the American public owes Snowden a debt of gratitude...which can be expressed at his espionage trial.

He's not a traitor....just another spy....



[Citation needed]
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Tallpine

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Re: Snowden: Hero or Criminal?
« Reply #221 on: June 28, 2013, 08:25:24 PM »
Snowden was tasked by foreign powers to provide information to discredit the Obama Administration and weaken US standing internationally. Not only did he succeed in that, he showed the American people important crimes the gov't perpetrated against its own citizenry.  For that, the American public owes Snowden a debt of gratitude...which can be expressed at his espionage trial.

He's not a traitor....just another spy....



I don't think anyone could discredit the Obama Administration and weaken US standing any more than Obama has   ;/   :P
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seeker_two

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Re: Snowden: Hero or Criminal?
« Reply #222 on: June 29, 2013, 10:44:36 AM »
[Citation needed]

Simple inductive reasoning.....why would China & Russia offer him so much assistance unless he was working for one or both?
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Blakenzy

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Re: Snowden: Hero or Criminal?
« Reply #223 on: June 29, 2013, 12:16:25 PM »
Simple inductive reasoning.....why would China & Russia offer him so much assistance unless he was working for one or both?


Why, to keep the Yakety Sax show rolling and for the Lulz...
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cordex

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Re: Snowden: Hero or Criminal?
« Reply #224 on: June 29, 2013, 12:33:58 PM »
Simple inductive reasoning.....why would China & Russia offer him so much assistance unless he was working for one or both?
Two reasons. It makes the US look incompetent, and whether he went into it working for them he likely has access to valuable information or knowledge of systems that could prove useful.