Author Topic: What's the deal with this Arizona Immigration law?  (Read 53086 times)

alex_trebek

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Re: What's the deal with this Arizona Immigration law?
« Reply #125 on: May 04, 2010, 11:48:03 PM »
I don't really get the analgy. I said that I had a problem with those that come here for welfare, or to commit serious crimes.

I understand that illegal immigration is breaking the law. How serious of a crime is it in the grand scheme of things? I mean technically driving 51 in a 50 mph zone is illegal. I do this everyday, and don't think it makes me immoral.

All laws are not morally based. I don't want to tell someone who wants to be a part of this country, but can't due to corruption in their native country, that we are going to need the thousands it costs to become a citizen upfront. I think that following the law to the letter in that case is immoral.

Now I have idea the percentage of immigrants that want to be productive vs mochers. I am simply saying that I disagree with banning every single person who immigrated here illegally.

In reality it really is the most workable way, deport people who are arrested for crimes. Ignore people who are silently saving and working towards American citizenship.

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: What's the deal with this Arizona Immigration law?
« Reply #126 on: May 05, 2010, 09:03:19 AM »
Yeah, it really isn't a valid analogy.  Those hypothetical peaceable self-supporting immigrants aren't in my house sitting on my couch, they're in their houses on their couches (paid for with their own earnings).  I wouldn't begrudge them their property.

If the concern is that, OMG, they're breaking THE LAW, well then the solution is easy.  Change the law.  They aren't doing anything particularly evil or bad just by living here peaceably, so it shouldn't be a problem to change the law to reflect it.

Of course, most people won't go for that.  Which tells me their gripe isn't that illegals break the law in the process of coming here, their gripe is that they come here at all.

Well, sorry, but I don't have a gripe with them being here.  I'd prefer that they come through legal channels, and to that end we need to ensure that there actually are adequate legal channels available.  And I'd prefer to have some security on the border for other reasons.  But on its own, the mere presence of an illegal here in the US is not a problem that rises very high on my list of concerns.

makattak

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Re: What's the deal with this Arizona Immigration law?
« Reply #127 on: May 05, 2010, 09:17:12 AM »
Yeah, it really isn't a valid analogy.  Those hypothetical peaceable self-supporting immigrants aren't in my house sitting on my couch, they're in their houses on their couches (paid for with their own earnings).  I wouldn't begrudge them their property.

If the concern is that, OMG, they're breaking THE LAW, well then the solution is easy.  Change the law.  They aren't doing anything particularly evil or bad just by living here peaceably, so it shouldn't be a problem to change the law to reflect it.

Of course, most people won't go for that.  Which tells me their gripe isn't that illegals break the law in the process of coming here, their gripe is that they come here at all.

Well, sorry, but I don't have a gripe with them being here.  I'd prefer that they come through legal channels, and to that end we need to ensure that there actually are adequate legal channels available.  And I'd prefer to have some security on the border for other reasons.  But on its own, the mere presence of an illegal here in the US is not a problem that rises very high on my list of concerns.

I have no problem with individuals who want to come to the United States for the opportunity to work and join our society.

I have a problem with individuals who want to come to the United State for the opportunity to work so they can support their family who have no allegiance to our society and who think they are entitled to the benefits of our society but take none of the responsibilities.

You want to become an American? Welcome with open arms.

You want to take a job and keep your allegiance to a foreign country? Get out.
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

sanglant

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dumb idea
« Reply #128 on: May 05, 2010, 09:41:21 AM »
having a immigration office in each city might be workable, come in get a real a ssn and background check and you good to go. ??? get caught without doing so, get shipped home. >:D oh and you have to take(not pass) classes on english, and (real) us history. =D

roo_ster

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Re: What's the deal with this Arizona Immigration law?
« Reply #129 on: May 05, 2010, 11:25:47 AM »
First off, it isn't the employers job to enforce the law.  If Person X can do the job, then any employer should be free to consider hiring him.  It should be up to the police to render Person X unable to do the job (i.e. put him in jail or kick him out of the country) if he's illegal.

Second, I think the prime incentive for immigrating illegally is the promise of free goods and services provided on the American taxpayers dime.  This can be anything from free medical care to foodstamps to clean streets to 1st world education for the kids.  Eliminate that and it becomes a lot less appealing to jumpt he border.

The employer is obligated to comply with the law.  Also, they have an ethical and moral obligation not to privatize profits and socialize costs by dumping illegals on the local medical system and burdening the local school system with the kids of illegals.

I guess I have a higher opinion of illegal aliens than you do, as I think the primary draw is gainful employment.  Thing is, in the USA, any low-skilled worker is a net drain on the economy and tax receipts.  They just don't produce enough to counteract the taxpayer-funded bennies they get.

Illegals often present false SS cards when obtaining a new job.  The employer still pays into SS, it just winds up going to a complete stranger.

If the false SS card has a real citizen's SSN, the employer, after receiving notice from the IRS and/or SSA that there is a discrepancy, is aiding fraud and identity theft.


If the false SS card has an entirely bogus number, this is also flagged after a bit and the employer is notified by IRS or SSA.  Employers who do nothing are as guilty as the illegal aliens.  Worse, they are moral cripples who burden their neighbors with the costs of health care and schooling.

Which tells me their gripe isn't that illegals break the law in the process of coming here, their gripe is that they come here at all.

There are other reasons pertaining to taxation & economics, fairness, culture, and sovereignty to consider

Any low-skilled immigrant, legal or otherwise, is a net drain.  Citizens will have to be taxed more to support them and those tax dollars are dollars that won't be spent as their previous owners saw best.  This retards economic growth and also retards innovation, as there is no incentive to replace plentiful low-skilled workers with new processes & machinery. 

Mass immigration (legal or otherwise) of low-skilled labor into the USA screws over low-skilled citizens, driving their wages down.  Folks gotta remember that the USA is not Lake Woebegone, where all citizens are above average.  Some folks are just born with less intelligence, half having less than then median intelligence for the population.  Do we tell our fellow citizens, "*expletive deleted*ck off and die?  I'll get cheaper labor from overseas?"  Do we have any affection for fellow (lower-skilled) citizens for the mere fact that they are fellow citizens, to the point where we'd not actively try to make their lives worse by dumping millions of low-skilled immigrants into the labor force?  I'm not a big fan of welfare programs, but I am not such a heel that I'd actively try to place impediments in people's way or kick them while they are down.

The great mass of immigrants (legal & otherwise) coming to the USA come from bass-ackward cultures where corruption and despotism is the norm.  It took millenia for Western Civilization to alloy democracy, republicanism, and individual sovereignty into a system that is stable, respects individuals, and is not just another self-serving syndicate.  Immigrants from bass-ackward countries carry this cultural baggage with them, as can be seen in the neighborhoods with large numbers of them.  Those that do "assimilate," mostly assimilate to the dysfunctional black underclass culture of unwed motherhood, drug use, crime, etc.  (1st gen immigrants, to their credit, have lower rates of the former.  Their kids & grandkids begin the spiral down.)  To put it plainly, a massive influx of an illiterate, 18th-century (skills/outlook) labor force is not something good for our culture & polity.

A rational & sovereign nation crafts immigration policy for its benefit, not the benefit of the immigrants.  "Who do we want to let in?" is the pertinent question, not "Who wants to get in?"  If it was the latter, we could expect 3-5 billion immigrants, as there are roughly 5 billion people on Earth less well-off than your average Mexican, great numbers of whom make the trek north.  To that end, the citizenry's desires are clear: they want no mass immigration of illiterate, "ready for the 18th Century" workers into our 21st Century country.

Regards,

roo_ster

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Balog

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Re: What's the deal with this Arizona Immigration law?
« Reply #130 on: May 05, 2010, 11:27:05 AM »
Their presence here is: a severe security risk, supporting the drug cartels and human slavers who use the routes and funds from transporting illegals, draining the economy as the majority of the money paid out in salary does to the old country, a huge source of identity theft, a huge source of voter fraud, denying work to citizens, a massive drain on hospitals, destroying the land on the border, destroying the property of border ranches, imports third world diseases, a massive drain on local schools, a general degradation of the culture etc etc etc.

A sovreign nation has the right to control who enters it's borders. I consider those laws worth of enforcing, and breaking them to be a mala in se act. If you don't, well... I'd respectfully suggest you spend some time in Arizona on the border and let the facts on the ground compete with your theorizing.
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longeyes

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Re: What's the deal with this Arizona Immigration law?
« Reply #131 on: May 05, 2010, 12:18:25 PM »
Quote
Yeah, it really isn't a valid analogy.  Those hypothetical peaceable self-supporting immigrants aren't in my house sitting on my couch, they're in their houses on their couches (paid for with their own earnings).  I wouldn't begrudge them their property.

If the concern is that, OMG, they're breaking THE LAW, well then the solution is easy.  Change the law.  They aren't doing anything particularly evil or bad just by living here peaceably, so it shouldn't be a problem to change the law to reflect it.

Of course, most people won't go for that.  Which tells me their gripe isn't that illegals break the law in the process of coming here, their gripe is that they come here at all.

Well, sorry, but I don't have a gripe with them being here.  I'd prefer that they come through legal channels, and to that end we need to ensure that there actually are adequate legal channels available.  And I'd prefer to have some security on the border for other reasons.  But on its own, the mere presence of an illegal here in the US is not a problem that rises very high on my list of concerns.

My city, county, and state are all going broke because of illegal aliens and their "needs."  They drain the welfare coffers, produce population congestion, up the crime rate, and overuse our natural resources and infrastructure.  Are they all "bad people?"  No, but they are, when we strip away the b.s., trespassers and, more often than not, parasites.  Hard words, I realize, but I see the ravages of 25 years of unchecked illegal immigration everywhere around me.  We have a hundred thousand gang members in this city, over half of them illegal aliens (source: LAPD).  Identity theft is rampant.  Let's not romanticize an ugly reality.
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RocketMan

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Re: What's the deal with this Arizona Immigration law?
« Reply #132 on: May 05, 2010, 11:37:21 PM »
I don't want to tell someone who wants to be a part of this country, but can't due to corruption in their native country, that we are going to need the thousands it costs to become a citizen upfront. I think that following the law to the letter in that case is immoral.

This, in my opinion, is where your argument breaks down.  Few of these folks really want to become American citizens.  They have no real desire to take part in this great experiment called "America".  Their first loyalty remains to Mexico (or to whatever country they came from).
They come here for the money they can earn, or the benefits they can game from .gov.

If an illegal really wanted to become an American, in true spirit and desire, if they really wanted to become a full contributing member of our society, then I might be inclined to look the other way, give them a pass, even ease the barriers to citizenship for them.
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: What's the deal with this Arizona Immigration law?
« Reply #133 on: May 05, 2010, 11:40:38 PM »
If an illegal really wanted to become an American, in true spirit and desire, if they really wanted to become a full contributing member of our society, then I might be inclined to look the other way, give them a pass, even ease the barriers to citizenship for them.

so would the folks who get the tax id numbers from the irs and pay taxes fit that bill?
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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Balog

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Re: What's the deal with this Arizona Immigration law?
« Reply #134 on: May 06, 2010, 12:55:19 AM »
I'm all for easing the path to citizenship. But not ignoring border laws, or allowing the criminals who happen to get here already to go free.
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RocketMan

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Re: What's the deal with this Arizona Immigration law?
« Reply #135 on: May 06, 2010, 01:08:16 AM »
Not sure I understand your question, C&SD.   What does having a tax ID have to do with anything I wrote?
If there really was intelligent life on other planets, we'd be sending them foreign aid.

Conservatives see George Orwell's "1984" as a cautionary tale.  Progressives view it as a "how to" manual.

My wife often says to me, "You are evil and must be destroyed." She may be right.

Liberals believe one should never let reason, logic and facts get in the way of a good emotional argument.

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: What's the deal with this Arizona Immigration law?
« Reply #136 on: May 06, 2010, 01:12:47 AM »
Not sure I understand your question, C&SD.   What does having a tax ID have to do with anything I wrote?
  would applying for one of the tax numbers (itn?) and paying taxes qualify em to stay?
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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Perd Hapley

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Re: What's the deal with this Arizona Immigration law?
« Reply #137 on: May 06, 2010, 01:15:40 AM »
I have no problem with individuals who want to come to the United States for the opportunity to work and join our society.

I have a problem with individuals who want to come to the United State for the opportunity to work so they can support their family who have no allegiance to our society and who think they are entitled to the benefits of our society but take none of the responsibilities.

You want to become an American? Welcome with open arms.

You want to take a job and keep your allegiance to a foreign country? Get out.

Question 1:  What's wrong with foreign nationals coming in legally to work, and going back home?  I don't get it.

Question 2:  Wouldn't your set-up be an incentive for people to gain citizenship (and Heaven forbid, vote) purely for economic reasons, regardless of any felt allegiance to the U.S., or attachment its principles? 
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makattak

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Re: What's the deal with this Arizona Immigration law?
« Reply #138 on: May 06, 2010, 08:55:06 AM »
Question 1:  What's wrong with foreign nationals coming in legally to work, and going back home?  I don't get it.

Question 2:  Wouldn't your set-up be an incentive for people to gain citizenship (and Heaven forbid, vote) purely for economic reasons, regardless of any felt allegiance to the U.S., or attachment its principles? 

1) I have no problems with foreign nationals coming here legally. I should have made that point more clear. We have a legal process for that. I'd be fine with people who do that as their declared intent, not people who agitate for special rights in this country who have no allegiance to this country.

2) Yes it would. That's a better situation than what we have now, though (imo). Raise costs = lower demand. Thus, fewer people with no true desire to join our society would come into this country.
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

longeyes

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Re: What's the deal with this Arizona Immigration law?
« Reply #139 on: May 06, 2010, 11:00:32 AM »
Foreigners coming here for a path to citizenship need to understand the basic principles of this nation and respect its core values.  Otherwise, we don't need them here.  As I have said before, we are not a global job service enterprise, this is a NATION.  Whatever happened to "assimilation?"  More to the point, whatever happened to a basic understanding of national identity?  Well, we need to ask that question to the American Left, which has been undermining our most fundamental precepts for decades.  Unless we deal with this "identity" issue we might as well pack it in.
"Domari nolo."

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RocketMan

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Re: What's the deal with this Arizona Immigration law?
« Reply #140 on: May 06, 2010, 10:56:01 PM »
 would applying for one of the tax numbers (itn?) and paying taxes qualify em to stay?

An ITN for a legal or illegal immigrant?  Can an illegal legally apply for an ITN?

If you come here legally to work, I have no problem with that.  If you come here illegally, for whatever reason, and your primary allegiance remains to your home country?  We don't need you, go home.
If you come here illegally, but with a strong desire to become an American citizen, with full allegiance, loyalty and love for this country, I'd be inclined to cut you some slack.

That's about as clear as I can make it, C&SD.
If there really was intelligent life on other planets, we'd be sending them foreign aid.

Conservatives see George Orwell's "1984" as a cautionary tale.  Progressives view it as a "how to" manual.

My wife often says to me, "You are evil and must be destroyed." She may be right.

Liberals believe one should never let reason, logic and facts get in the way of a good emotional argument.

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: What's the deal with this Arizona Immigration law?
« Reply #141 on: May 06, 2010, 11:29:31 PM »
illegals can and do get the tax id's and pay taxes a bunch  check this out

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18077009/

its not approved by lew rockwell or alex jones but...

RICHMOND, Calif. - Carlos Diaz broke the law when he crossed the border and took a job as an office janitor. But he’s not about to break another by failing to pay his income tax.

“I’ve been talking to other people who’ve done it, and I want to follow the law,” said Diaz, an undocumented immigrant from Guatemala who squirmed in his seat at a neighborhood tax preparer’s office.

Tuesday is Tax Day, when millions of illegal immigrants find themselves collaborating with one federal agency — the Internal Revenue Service — while trying to avoid another — Immigration and Customs Enforcement.
Story continues below ↓advertisement | your ad here

They hope a track record of on-time payments will aid their citizenship applications, but critics who favor tougher enforcement of federal immigration rules say it’s absurd for the government to work with people it should be tracking down and deporting. It legitimizes the presence of immigrants who are here illegally, critics say, and sends a mixed message about the country’s interest in enforcing its own rules.

“The word schizophrenic comes to mind,” said Marti Dinerstein, president of Immigration Matters, a research firm that advocates tighter immigration enforcement. “There is something fundamentally wrong about this.”

The IRS created a nine-digit Individual Tax Identification Number in 1996 for foreigners who don’t have Social Security numbers but need to file taxes in the U.S. But it is increasingly used by undocumented workers to file taxes, apply for credit, get bank accounts or even buy a home.

The IRS issued 1.5 million ITINs in 2006 — a 30 percent increase from the previous year. All told, the tax liability of ITIN filers between 1996 and 2003 was $50 billion. The agency has no way to track how many were immigrants, but it’s widely believed most people using ITINS are in the United States illegally.

One number hints at the number of illegal immigrants having income taxes deducted from their paychecks.

In 2004, the IRS got 7.9 million W-2s with names that didn’t match a Social Security Number. More than half were from California, Texas, Florida and Illinois, states with large immigrant populations, leading experts to believe they likely represent the wages of illegal immigrants. Even immigrants who use ITINs to file taxes are forced to make up a Social Security Number when they get a job.

Critics like Dinerstein believe the process makes room for law violators, and in some cases, might endanger the country by allowing them to operate more freely.


“That’s why people who are living here illegally rushed to get ITINS like they’re chocolate candy,” said Dinerstein. “It’s a national security issue.”

IRS spokeswoman Nancy Mathis said the ID numbers are issued strictly to track a tax return’s progress through the system, noting the tax code says nothing about whether foreigners filing taxes are here legally or not.


CONTINUED : 'It serves no other purpose'
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

Balog

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Re: What's the deal with this Arizona Immigration law?
« Reply #142 on: May 07, 2010, 01:27:21 AM »
Do they goto the same ACORN branches that help the pimps and hookers launder their assets?
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sanglant

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Re: What's the deal with this Arizona Immigration law?
« Reply #143 on: May 07, 2010, 10:28:34 PM »
nine digit, that's 333. oh crap there in the trial stages. [tinfoil]







lol [popcorn] oh, and Green Jellö sucks!

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Re: What's the deal with this Arizona Immigration law?
« Reply #144 on: May 08, 2010, 01:51:13 AM »
never mind.  I wish I could delete posts.
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longeyes

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Re: What's the deal with this Arizona Immigration law?
« Reply #145 on: May 08, 2010, 10:30:31 AM »
Quote
I don't really get the analgy. I said that I had a problem with those that come here for welfare, or to commit serious crimes.

I understand that illegal immigration is breaking the law. How serious of a crime is it in the grand scheme of things? I mean technically driving 51 in a 50 mph zone is illegal. I do this everyday, and don't think it makes me immoral.

I guess you don't keep up on the drunk driving stories, huh? Or the kidnapping stories (one a day in Phoenix)? Or the identity theft stories (many millions of dollars involved)?  Or the gang stories (over half of Los Angeles gang members are illegal aliens from C. America, per the LAPD)?  Or even the spousal abuse stories, often ending in violence (daily in the L.A. Times)?  The collateral damage is vast and getting steadily worse.  The pro-illegal supporters use funny economics to make their case.  Do illegals use infrastructure, do they use limited water resources and expensive electrical power?  Do they now make up the majority of students in CA K through 12?

Illegal aliens pay taxes?  Every illegal with three kids in school is costing my county about $25K a year.  There aren't many illegal aliens paying THAT in taxes, I can assure you.
"Domari nolo."

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Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: What's the deal with this Arizona Immigration law?
« Reply #146 on: May 08, 2010, 11:42:47 AM »
Perhaps you missed the part where we said we don't have much problem with peaceable and self-supporting illegal aliens being here.  It was clear that we specifically excluded illegals who commit nasty crimes or present a burden to society.

Even if it wasn't clear before, it is now, so feel free to drop the strawman.

longeyes

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Re: What's the deal with this Arizona Immigration law?
« Reply #147 on: May 08, 2010, 11:54:52 AM »
YOU are the one with the "straw man."  There are no "peaceful illegals" when they are breaking the law and parasitically draining the public coffers.  My county spends a billion dollars a year on aid to your peaceful illegal aliens, and that doesn't count health care or education costs.  Frankly, it is people like yourself, with your blather about dividing illegal aliens into "good" and "bad" camps, that aid and abet the problem and make it impossible to solve.  You put economics above the law, about American values, above the culture of the nation, justifying trespassing by appealing to the economic "need" of aliens and exploitive American business types.  Yes, you are truly "headless."
"Domari nolo."

Thug: What you lookin' at old man?
Walt Kowalski: Ever notice how you come across somebody once in a while you shouldn't have messed with? That's me.

Molon Labe.

KD5NRH

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Re: What's the deal with this Arizona Immigration law?
« Reply #148 on: May 08, 2010, 11:59:13 AM »
Illegal aliens pay taxes?  Every illegal with three kids in school is costing my county about $25K a year.

This is why we need a voucher system; so we can get the illegals into private schools that spend less than $8300/student/year.


Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: What's the deal with this Arizona Immigration law?
« Reply #149 on: May 08, 2010, 12:03:37 PM »
There are lots of peaceable self-supporting illegal immigrants.  Several are my neighbors, and I'm proud to call one of them my family.

You might want to quit stereotyping and get a clue about the real world.  I suspect you'd rather not let the facts get in the way of your opinions.

Some illegals cause major problems, no doubt about it.  Some prove to be better neighbors than most Americans, a fact you're completely blind to.  Alas, until you can start to see things honestly, we won't be able to have a meaningful discussion on this issue.