Author Topic: Protesters Take Over National Wildlife Refuge  (Read 27079 times)

KD5NRH

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Re: Protesters Take Over National Wildlife Refuge
« Reply #150 on: February 02, 2016, 10:20:11 AM »
And have you noticed who winds up on juries most of the time?

People not bright enough to get out of jury duty.

IMO, step one is to make jury pay the same as the judge's pay.  Lots of folks can't afford to risk getting stuck on a long trial without enough pay to even cover a couple McDonald's value meals a day.

lupinus

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Re: Protesters Take Over National Wildlife Refuge
« Reply #151 on: February 02, 2016, 10:22:38 AM »
Am I wrong in surmising that the BLM is not only run by but caters to Luddite coastal envirofreaks instead of their supposed clients, the ranchers and other-landworkers who are forced to interact with them on a regular basis?
You pretty much just described every federal agency.

Lavoy being a jackass or not aside, the entire situation has stunk to high heaven from stage one.
That is all. *expletive deleted*ck you all, eat *expletive deleted*it, and die in a fire. I have considered writing here a long parting section dedicated to each poster, but I have decided, at length, against it. *expletive deleted*ck you all and Hail Satan.

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re:
« Reply #152 on: February 02, 2016, 11:14:37 AM »
18000 permits seem to be handled without controversial events. Why is it only these modern dannites have troubles with white rancher welfare?

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http://www.blm.gov/wo/st/en/prog/grazing.html
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Jocassee

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Re:
« Reply #153 on: February 02, 2016, 12:18:28 PM »
18000 permits seem to be handled without controversial events. Why is it only these modern dannites have troubles with white rancher welfare?

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http://www.blm.gov/wo/st/en/prog/grazing.html

Honestly, I don't know. But I do know the BLM has clashed with anyone who uses federal land for anything other than birdwatching. And based on the amount of property the BLM has subsumed in the Malheur area, and the tactics they have purportedly used to get it, what happened here isn't exactly shocking.

And whatever the legal intricacies, it's still immoral. Saying that these guys deserved to go to jail because out 18000 permit applicants they were the *only* ones that had a problem, in the absence of another related conviction, is still the weakest of sauce.

I know that being the dissenting voice here is your niche, and I don't resent that one bit. I appreciate it. I also know you love finding the flaws in individual cases that are held up in the media as representing a problem. I have benefited from your research in many other cases. With that in mind, let me reiterate that I am not seeking to absolve anyone from blame. I understand that the judgement passed down was perfectly legal and not without precedent. I'm merely emphasizing that it was completely immoral, unethical, and disproportionate, and that other men can easily envision ways which this abuse of power will affect them.

If similar abuses continue to happen at the hands of unaccountable beaureaucrats, then these types of protests, however ill-advised, will continue. They will not go away. That is not in the DNA of the movement, even if it is top-heavy with keyboard commandoes and Stewart Rhodes types afraid of their own shadows.

IMO the Feds have made a martyr, if not unjustly then certainly unnecessarily, and one more sympathetic than Randy Weaver or David Koresh, whom I have never seen in a facebook meme.

Unlike most keyboard patriots, I also see this continuum as being very long, and the end of it, if any, being yet distant rather than immediate.

For those like myself who prognosticate on these situations, I would be wary of disorganized, overly enthusiastic individuals such as the decedent and his friends, who have and will cause chaos. But beware the end state of their efforts, which will result in a deeper, darker, more professional phase of this cold civil war. I fear that way lurks more secret and organized groups who are keeping score and don't like to brag about how many Feds they could have killed any time they wanted to, a la Ryan Payne. If they feel the need to act they will simply kill then disappear.

I pray, of course, that none of this happens. Nothing good will come of it, but as with Lavoy, we can only deal with realities and consequences, not wishful thinking. Personally, I'm hoping for secession.


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charby

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Re: Protesters Take Over National Wildlife Refuge
« Reply #154 on: February 02, 2016, 02:07:22 PM »
Am I wrong in surmising that the BLM is not only run by but caters to Luddite coastal envirofreaks instead of their supposed clients, the ranchers and other-landworkers who are forced to interact with them on a regular basis?

The switch from consumptive to recreation/conservation usage of public lands began in the 1950s when urban folks started to use their cheap cars, cheap fuel and extra money/leisure time to start exploring the public lands.

Google "Mission 66" this one of the programs out on the 1950s, this is the park service, but there is similar plans for forest service and BLM.

Also rent rates for public land is cheaper then they should be, so it is also a form of welfare for the ranchers.

If you bring up the argument that they should sell the public land, just remember wealthy billionaires like Ted Turner is going to buy it and no one will have access.

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Marnoot

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Re: Protesters Take Over National Wildlife Refuge
« Reply #155 on: February 02, 2016, 02:11:12 PM »
If you bring up the argument that they should sell the public land, just remember wealthy billionaires like Ted Turner is going to buy it and no one will have access.

IMO, it ought to be given over to the states. My own state here passed legislation "requiring" this be done (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utah_Transfer_of_Public_Lands_Act), but they'll have to (successfully) sue the federal government to make it actually happen. I expect little to nothing to happen on that front.

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re:
« Reply #156 on: February 02, 2016, 02:17:12 PM »
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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Jocassee

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Re:
« Reply #157 on: February 02, 2016, 02:29:48 PM »
Lady has an agenda but her numbers are good
http://www.forbes.com/sites/vickeryeckhoff/2014/04/25/federal-grazing-program-in-bundy-dispute-rips-off-taxpayers-wild-horses/#2885e7d37b78

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I'm not opposed to government management of the land. I'm opposed to an unaccountable morally corrupt bureaucracy cooperating with Federal prosecutors to accuse ranchers of terrorism after a burn got a little out of hand.

Government-managed common land has a tradition in common law and from where I sit there is no inherent difficulty there. I am ambivalent, due to lack of research, on whether or not Federal lands should go to the States and what Ranchers should be charged for grazing it. The market will sort that out, given the opportunity. As I understand it Texas has almost no federal land and seems to provide beef just fine.
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KD5NRH

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Re: Protesters Take Over National Wildlife Refuge
« Reply #158 on: February 02, 2016, 03:05:20 PM »
If you bring up the argument that they should sell the public land, just remember wealthy billionaires like Ted Turner is going to buy it and no one will have access.

Depends on how it's sold and how the sales are advertised; yes, if you're selling it only in 10,000 acre chunks, only the very wealthy will get it, but 10-150-500 acre parcels with notice given in a truly public way ahead of time will attract a lot of people.  Access easements to sections of particular public interest (which should be held by the state, though with some restrictions to keep state lawmakers from selling them off or leasing them out to fund some boondoggle) would keep the parts most people would ever care about having access to open.

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Re: Protesters Take Over National Wildlife Refuge
« Reply #159 on: February 02, 2016, 03:05:44 PM »

charby

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Re: Protesters Take Over National Wildlife Refuge
« Reply #160 on: February 02, 2016, 04:10:28 PM »
Depends on how it's sold and how the sales are advertised; yes, if you're selling it only in 10,000 acre chunks, only the very wealthy will get it, but 10-150-500 acre parcels with notice given in a truly public way ahead of time will attract a lot of people.  Access easements to sections of particular public interest (which should be held by the state, though with some restrictions to keep state lawmakers from selling them off or leasing them out to fund some boondoggle) would keep the parts most people would ever care about having access to open.

States like Wyoming don't have easement laws, you can be truly landlocked. BLM land is the land that no one wanted (or could make a living off of) after the land grant system was ended.

Also more than likely it will be sold off in sections, so even at $100 an acre, a section is going to be $64K.
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Andiron

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Re:
« Reply #161 on: February 02, 2016, 09:11:26 PM »
18000 permits seem to be handled without controversial events. Why is it only these modern dannites have troubles with white rancher welfare?

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http://www.blm.gov/wo/st/en/prog/grazing.html

Just going to paraphrase your last slew of posts;  You're totally OK with these guys being sent to prison on terrorism charges.  Great.  Got it.

My days of taking anything you post seriously are coming to a middle.
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Hawkmoon

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Re: Protesters Take Over National Wildlife Refuge
« Reply #162 on: February 02, 2016, 09:45:19 PM »
If you bring up the argument that they should sell the public land, just remember wealthy billionaires like Ted Turner is going to buy it and no one will have access.

True. If you need proof, look to Chile: http://observers.france24.com/en/20100128-man-who-buying-south-america-chilet-argentine-parcs-prives-douglas-tompkins

My wife was from Chile. She hated him, and every Chilean I have spoken with hates him. But ... the socialist-leaning government of Chile loves his money ...
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charby

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Re: Protesters Take Over National Wildlife Refuge
« Reply #163 on: February 02, 2016, 10:26:02 PM »
IMO, it ought to be given over to the states. My own state here passed legislation "requiring" this be done (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utah_Transfer_of_Public_Lands_Act), but they'll have to (successfully) sue the federal government to make it actually happen. I expect little to nothing to happen on that front.

Be careful what you wish for.
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Regolith

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Re: Protesters Take Over National Wildlife Refuge
« Reply #164 on: February 03, 2016, 02:15:49 AM »
Depends on how it's sold and how the sales are advertised; yes, if you're selling it only in 10,000 acre chunks, only the very wealthy will get it, but 10-150-500 acre parcels with notice given in a truly public way ahead of time will attract a lot of people.

Not that land. You need to sell it in pretty big chunks for it to be productive. Selling/giving it away in small chunks is how this mess started out to begin with. All the good areas -- places with year-round water, mostly -- got homesteaded or bought, and the rest nobody wanted.
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Marnoot

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Re: Protesters Take Over National Wildlife Refuge
« Reply #165 on: February 03, 2016, 10:16:42 AM »
Be careful what you wish for.

Eh. Depends on the state most likely. On average I don't see the states handling the land any worse than the feds. Utah is over 66% federal land; Nevada is over 80%, I find those numbers a tad ridiculous.

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Re:
« Reply #166 on: February 03, 2016, 11:34:59 AM »
Quote from: Andiron link=topic=50507.msg1034848#msg1034848454465486
Just going to paraphrase your last slew of posts;  You're totally OK with these guys being sent to prison on terrorism charges.  Great.  Got it.

My days of taking anything you post seriously are coming to a middle.
They are facing mandatory minimum sentencing for arson, not terrorism.

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Re:
« Reply #167 on: February 03, 2016, 02:38:14 PM »
They are facing mandatory minimum sentencing for arson, not terrorism.
Don't interject facts into a wnd/infowars fueled fantasy

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It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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roo_ster

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Re: Protesters Take Over National Wildlife Refuge
« Reply #168 on: February 03, 2016, 03:24:41 PM »
I am sure the years will rest more lightly on their shoulders, given they were imposed for arson, not terrorism.

As for the NWR occupiers, I am not sure they had thier Underpants Gnome plan to riches liberty quite ready for prime time.

For my own part, I suspect more such incidents will occur, unless the gov't gets smart and aggressively ignores such occupiers and reforms its abuses.  The Brits in N Ireland showed the likeliest path to victory in such a situation by iron discipline in the face of provocation and minding its own store.
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KD5NRH

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Re: Protesters Take Over National Wildlife Refuge
« Reply #169 on: February 03, 2016, 03:27:21 PM »
Anybody ever wonder how the "hard working" ranchers and farmers seem to be second only to liberal looters and pampered housewives in the amount of free time they have available to lobby and protest?  

charby

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Re: Protesters Take Over National Wildlife Refuge
« Reply #170 on: February 03, 2016, 06:50:16 PM »
I am sure the years will rest more lightly on their shoulders, given they were imposed for arson, not terrorism.

As for the NWR occupiers, I am not sure they had thier Underpants Gnome plan to riches liberty quite ready for prime time.

For my own part, I suspect more such incidents will occur, unless the gov't gets smart and aggressively ignores such occupiers and reforms its abuses.  The Brits in N Ireland showed the likeliest path to victory in such a situation by iron discipline in the face of provocation and minding its own store.

It runs in cycles out west, google sage brush rebellion sometime.
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charby

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Re: Protesters Take Over National Wildlife Refuge
« Reply #171 on: February 03, 2016, 06:51:40 PM »
Eh. Depends on the state most likely. On average I don't see the states handling the land any worse than the feds. Utah is over 66% federal land; Nevada is over 80%, I find those numbers a tad ridiculous.

I bet California would throw a pickle into, maybe a Colorado, maybe one more state, either Oregon or Washington.
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