Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => Politics => Topic started by: AZRedhawk44 on December 18, 2012, 02:26:57 PM
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We still haven't heard anything from the NRA.
Guess where they'll go here.
They're getting picketed by a bunch of million-mom types right now. I'm all for the NRA lobbying and maintaining a presence on K-street, but I think it's high past time for them to shut down the VA head office and move it further west (along with their thought process and philosophy towards 2A). Wyoming, Colorado, Arizona, New Mexico. Somewhere like that. Move HQ to the Whittington Center.
I expect they'll toss EBR's under the bus. Even Garands, M14's and AR's, despite the High Power legacy.
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We'll see. You can't overcome an emotional argument with facts or logic, morality or principles, until the audience is receptive to them. Our best ally here is time, if we can get it. So waiting until some more moderate heads have cooled to articulate a stance makes sense to me. Is that the reasoning? Who knows...
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If the NRA wants to become as irrelevant as the GOP they can begin Boehnerizing. Any serious compromise on magazine restrictions or action type will mark their end as a meaningful and effective defender of RKBA.
I am betting they don't cave. They have no future as a branch of United Eloi of America.
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AZ- go outside have some fresh air.
I'm going to quote my friend Michael Ware owner of Controlled Chaos Arms (he makes machine guns and supressors and all sorts of goodies) to someone on Facebook
So beating up the only national gun rights group in the free born world is the best use of the time and resource we have?
Sorry Randy, that is a stupid move. Let them formulate the proper response and they'll release it ASAP.
Yanking your support at such a critical time is neither prudent or wise. Neither is hammering an org on our team with correspondences that suck more time and resource.
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I'll also point out it hasn't even been a week since the murders.
I prefer to give time and respect to the dead and their grieving families before waging into the political war the blood porn media and their "progressive" allies have already begun.
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What would lead one to believe that the NRA is going to turn against EBRs? If I had to guess, I'd say more NRA members actually own EBRs now, than ever before.
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I'll also point out it hasn't even been a week since the murders.
I prefer to give time and respect to the dead and their grieving families before waging into the political war the blood porn media and their "progressive" allies have already begun.
This. Lets let the torches go out and the tar cool. There's plenty of hysteria out there now and I'm glad the NRA is holding back and not pulling something like a Dicks or CTD attempting to show they're "doing something" when quite possibly, once all is said and done and all the ACTUAL facts have been established there may be nothing to be done. Dicks and CTD are doing way more damage by speaking than the NRA is by being silent.
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CTD?
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For the moment I am giving them the benefit of the doubt. No matter what they were to say right now it would be "wrong" and used as fodder by the left. They are doing the right thing right now.
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CTD?
Cheaper Than Dirt
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Cheaper Than Dirt
You beat me to it...it is fistful's fault.
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In a statement released to the press, the National Rifle Association says it's shocked, saddened and heartbroken by the news of the horrific and senseless murders in Newtown." The organization plans to hold a news conference on Friday to address the gun-related issues.
Here's the statement, the first since the mass shooting in Connecticut:
National Rifle Association of America is made up of four million moms and dads, sons and daughters – and we were shocked, saddened and heartbroken by the news of the horrific and senseless murders in Newtown.
Out of respect for the families, and as a matter of common decency, we have given time for mourning, prayer and a full investigation of the facts before commenting.
The NRA is prepared to offer meaningful contributions to help make sure this never happens again.
The NRA is planning to hold a major news conference in the Washington, DC area on Friday, December 21.
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Link to the statement Harold quoted: http://home.nra.org/pdf/StatementAdvisory.pdf
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Smart move to lay low. Reasoned discussion is not possible for now.
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Cheaper Than Dirt
I figured that, but what did they do?
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I figured that, but what did they do?
Announced immediate cessation of EBR sales.
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Announced immediate cessation of EBR sales.
All gun sales I believe, it was Dick's that just stopped selling EBR's.
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All gun sales I believe, it was Dick's that just stopped selling EBR's.
You're correct. My RCF.
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This. Lets let the torches go out and the tar cool. There's plenty of hysteria out there now and I'm glad the NRA is holding back and not pulling something like a Dicks or CTD attempting to show they're "doing something" when quite possibly, once all is said and done and all the ACTUAL facts have been established there may be nothing to be done. Dicks and CTD are doing way more damage by speaking than the NRA is by being silent.
This is good advice, but not advice that the people who live for these tragedies as opportunities not to be wasted are going to take.
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Did CTD ever do much gun sales? I thought they were just acting as middle man for people to sell used guns.
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Did CTD ever do much gun sales? I thought they were just acting as middle man for people to sell used guns.
Ctd was advertising a metric ass load of new guns.
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Ctd was advertising a metric ass load of new guns.
They have a fairly new CTD Guns storefront not far from here.
Friday's statement is going to determine if my Amex is getting any exercise. Life membership by sundown if they don't cave.
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The NRA is prepared to offer meaningful contributions to help make sure this never happens again.
This statement worries me. It sounds too much like some of the nonsense already coming out of DC. What are "meaningful contributions" exactly?
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The whole country is going emo. I would have expected a stronger statement from the NRA, especially in the face of what we are seeing, the amount of hysterical, sanctimonious, and wrongheaded piling-on. Let's hope we get some clarity out of them at their presser.
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Who did Cerberus sell the bushmaster name to today?
They already moved the production under Remington, so all they really sold would be the name and the marked lowers
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Cerberus announced that the firearms businesses are for sale. They do own Bushmaster.
the NRA appears to be laying low and stated that they intend to have a press conference on Friday. They don't want anything like this happening again. What that means in terms of their political positions, I don't know. But if they "throw EBR's under the bus" as mentioned earlier, I suspect they will see a dramatic decline in their membership.
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The NRA will not throw EBR's under the bus or support mag restrictions.
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The NRA will not throw EBR's under the bus or support mag restrictions.
I LOLd
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This statement worries me. It sounds too much like some of the nonsense already coming out of DC. What are "meaningful contributions" exactly?
Same here.
Friday's statement is going to determine if my Amex is getting any exercise. Life membership by sundown if they don't cave.
I let my membership lapse in 2008, mainly to save $25 a year. I'll be re-upping on Friday, if they don't blow it.
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I hope not. But I hope that they can bring some sanity into the discussion. It is going to be hard and their voice will certainly not carry above the major media types with shows. I expect Hannity will have someone from the NRA as a guest.
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The NRA doesn't want this happening again? Well, who does?
But they can't stop it from happening again no matter what they propose. Adam Lanza was no more one-of-a-kind than Maj. Hasan was.
Their job is to defend OUR rights, not to placate the public safety at any cost fanatics.
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I LOLd
It is a prediction thread.
There is zero upside to them folding on either issue.
The NRA is not all Fudds, they know the stakes.
It's all about the Benjamin's. They fold now they will see an exodus in membership like they've never seen before.
This isn't politics anymore.
This is fundamental transformation taking place before our eyes.
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Here's hoping the NRA (and some conservative pundits) read this article: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/12/18/fear-being-committed-may-have-caused-connecticut-madman-to-snap/
If this theory proves out, then the motive was pure revenge, and if Adam Lanza had been unable to lay his hands on a firearm or three, he was clearly intelligent enough to build a bomb that would have easily killed far more people than he did with his gun.
We need to start hammering that point. As we have always discussed, the gun was just a tool. For someone who wants to kill other people, they'll use any tool they can. Some people use guns, some use poison, some use knives, some use automobiles ... and some use bombs.
Now THERE's a genuine weapon of mass destruction. And buzzers on the front door of the school are NOT going to defeat a bomb the size of Timothy McVeigh's U-Haul.
The pointy heads in Washington need to recognize this.
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The pointy heads in Washington need to recognize this.
Many of the pointy heads in DC do recognize this. It makes no difference to them because their entire aim is to do away with firearms, period.
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I predict that the NRA will go the Mental Health route. There's no way they'll throw EBR's or Standard Capacity mags under the bus.
Mental Health and stronger reporting requirements (followed by an adjudication process) will be the card they play. That's what all the mass shooters have had in common. Mental Health issues that went untreated.
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That's what all the mass shooters have had in common. Mental Health issues
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FpKtxn.jpg&hash=da4d166d8b9f575595120bd4d6898f1a5c5afdb3)
:P
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I think it will go like this...
1. Condolences to the victims & families.
2. Offer to help school districts in securing their schools via training, whether they go armed or not.
3. Reaffirm 2A, Heller, & MacDonald and oppose any new gun-control laws.
....anything other than that risks the NRA sounding like another "Stupid Party"....
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Just let me get this cap on first.... [tinfoil] ....there we go. Alright, here's my prediction. The NRA will pay lip service to protection of the 2nd amendment while giving support to
reasonable common sense meaningful compromises* in D.C., and afterwards will go on a fundraising blitz crying about how they need more of our money to prevent the gun-grabbers from taking away our ability to hunt Bambi and Donald. There's more money to be made in the battle than there is in the victory.
*Which really just means further erosion of the 2nd amendment. There really is no such thing as compromise when dealing with enumerated rights, unless you're using the definition of the word that denotes the jeopardizing of said right.
I will be pleased if proven wrong, but not surprised if proven right.
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Ceding ground regarding mental health criteria is perhaps the greatest slippery slope of all of those who love liberty.
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Ceding ground regarding mental health criteria is perhaps the greatest slippery slope of all of those who love liberty.
It is, but the mentally ill are probably one of the few groups that it is acceptable to mock, stereotype, and otherwise crap on.
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It is, but the mentally ill are probably one of the few groups that it is acceptable to mock, stereotype, and otherwise crap on.
Yeah, and white males ;/
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I just read a few of the items the "Gun Task Force" headed by Biden is going to potentially pursue. I am going to make a prediction that the NRA will cave on the "gun show loophole". Seeing some of the other stuff they will have to fight, the "gun show loophole" seems like the Red Shirt of the batch.
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Yeah, and white males ;/
And bible clinging Christians.
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We need to begin with the realization that the left considers people like us insane. This is just Sovietism brought up-to-date.
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Ceding ground regarding mental health criteria is perhaps the greatest slippery slope of all of those who love liberty.
At least the Government has seized control of health care. Mix the two together and the recipe is not good.
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Ceding ground regarding mental health criteria is perhaps the greatest slippery slope of all of those who love liberty.
Yep. Especially considering what goes into the DSM-IV under the category of 'mental illnesses' is sometimes more subjective and political than it is scientific, not to mention Psychiatrists doing the diagnosing aren't uniformly non-subjective and non-political.
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But, you still have to be adjudicated, in front of a judge and with access to legal counsel. At least for now.
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I just read a few of the items the "Gun Task Force" headed by Biden is going to potentially pursue. I am going to make a prediction that the NRA will cave on the "gun show loophole". Seeing some of the other stuff they will have to fight, the "gun show loophole" seems like the Red Shirt of the batch.
IOW, private sales?
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But, you still have to be adjudicated, in front of a judge and with access to legal counsel. At least for now.
Judge shopping is the official state sport where I live.
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If the NRA supports restrictions on private sales they are done. Half their members or more will leave.
If they support restrictions on private sales I will pull a H W Bush and request they remove me from their roles as a lifetime member.
Compromise under these circumstances is tantamount to admitting culpability.
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IOW, private sales?
Well, we know that, but I think they think there's a difference between gun shows and other private party sales. I could be wrong, but if they look at ONLY gun shows, I see that as something the NRA might sacrifice to protect other areas.
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Except the "gun show loop hole" includes not only private sales but also Grandpa passing his collection to the grand kids. Dad passing the Garand to his daughter or Mom willing her 1st gen Colt SAA to her son.
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We need to begin with the realization that the left considers people like us insane. This is just Sovietism brought up-to-date.
This is just as dangerous as any potential gun ban. "Those who cannot remember the past, are condemned to repeat it" :
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_abuse_of_psychiatry_in_the_Soviet_Union
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Except the "gun show loop hole" includes not only private sales but also Grandpa passing his collection to the grand kids. Dad passing the Garand to his daughter or Mom willing her 1st gen Colt SAA to her son.
Not quite. Bequests are exempt from transfer requirements. No FFL needed for the executor of a will to transfer bequests to the nominal heir, even across state lines.
Of course, if the state of residence of the heir has draconian laws in place (NY, NJ, CA), that's a separate question.
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Not quite. Bequests are exempt from transfer requirements. No FFL needed for the executor of a will to transfer bequests to the nominal heir, even across state lines.
Of course, if the state of residence of the heir has draconian laws in place (NY, NJ, CA), that's a separate question.
What about giving my (future) son a .22 for his birthday?
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What about my grandpa giving me his garand?
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Well, we know that, but I think they think there's a difference between gun shows and other private party sales. I could be wrong, but if they look at ONLY gun shows, I see that as something the NRA might sacrifice to protect other areas.
So a measure to ban private sales within (or within x feet of) a gunshow? Interesting. I guess that might not be a full retard move. =|
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What about my grandpa giving me his garand?
That's not a bequest. That's a gift, subject to normal transfer regulations.
If he leaves it to you in his will, then it's a bequest and exempt from normal transfer regulations.
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That's not a bequest. That's a gift, subject to normal transfer regulations.
Huh? Are you saying that gifts require an FFL transfer now, or do you speak hypothetically?
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Huh? Are you saying that gifts require an FFL transfer now, or do you speak hypothetically?
Across state lines. That's the missing caveat in what he said. You can inherit/bequest across state lines without an FFL, assuming the items are legal in the receiver's state. Although that has nothing to do with the FFL status. If you try to FFL an item that's illegal in your state, you still obviously can't have it by state law anyway.
This is because bequests/inheritance are not "commerce" and as such does not come under the GCA 68's authority from the Interstate Commerce Clause of the Constitution.
You cannot gift a firearm across state lines without an FFL. Gifts are "commerce" I guess.
In-state is up to your local state regulations, which vary, but the ATF fed.gov has no say in it because it does not have ICC authority either.
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Oh, OK, thanks.
You cannot gift a firearm across state lines without an FFL. Gifts are "commerce" I guess.
More like commerce is easily disguised as gifts.
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But, you still have to be adjudicated, in front of a judge and with access to legal counsel. At least for now.
In Michigan, they hold "court" right in the facility, with one of their own MH "professionals" as the "judge" ;/
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Huh? Are you saying that gifts require an FFL transfer now, or do you speak hypothetically?
They do if it's an interstate transfer. I thought that's what was being asked about.
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They do if it's an interstate transfer. I thought that's what was being asked about.
We're talking about the hypothetical situation of private face to face transfers becoming verboten. You know. That "gun show loophole."
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We're talking about the hypothetical situation of private face to face transfers becoming verboten. You know. That "gun show loophole."
I'm still predicting the NRA will roll right over on this.
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In Michigan, they hold "court" right in the facility, with one of their own MH "professionals" as the "judge" ;/
They do? I have represented people at guardianship hearings and they have always been at a probate court.
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I'm still predicting the NRA will roll right over on this.
Yep
Depending on how they respond today, i'll either get a membership or write them a letter telling them they're traitors
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NRA did not "roll over" and recommended that armed guards be positioned in each and every school in the country. La Pierre indicated there is a lot of time to debate the merits of whatever regulations or control measures are proposed.
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They do? I have represented people at guardianship hearings and they have always been at a probate court.
This wasn't a guardianship hearing, it was for continued hospitalization.
I wasn't there, and I'm not sure of the legal qualification but they called it a hearing and a judge. =(
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Statement from the NRA.
http://home.nra.org/iphone.aspx
Calling for "an" armed guard in every school. Doesn't seem like that good a plan to me, but they aren't caving.
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The NRA didn't cave, but the armed guard response wasn't particularly useful, either.
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La Pierre indicated there is a lot of time to debate the merits of whatever regulations or control measures are proposed.
"we're not caving now. Now we're scraping up what members we can. the betrayal will come LATER"
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Watching the video now at the C-span archive. Cue codepink moron. "The violence starts with the NRA!"
ETA: Glad I'm not the only one cynically reading between the lines.
ETA2: Aaaand there he goes about the violent video games and movies. Profiling a 10 year old flash game as if it's the source of the evil.
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"we're not caving now. Now we're scraping up what members we can. the betrayal will come LATER"
Actually I think they have learned their lesson. The NRA was a big help in getting Iowa to shall issue on carry permits.
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And there goes a second codepink idiot trying to crash the press conference. You know, if you guys are watching an edited and condensed version I really suggest the full c-span archive version instead. 32 minutes long, and you get to see some of the really far out whack jobs there. [popcorn]
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Statement from the NRA.
http://home.nra.org/iphone.aspx
Calling for "an" armed guard in every school. Doesn't seem like that good a plan to me, but they aren't caving.
If you'll note, that was a short term solution. He said "this is something we can do now."
The long term solution was helping every school set up a security and response plan with the "School Shield" initiative or whatever it was called.
Honestly, I thought that blaming movies and video games was wrong, as well, but I enjoyed the assault on the media and Hollywood. If they wish to act like enemies, treat them as such.
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This wasn't a guardianship hearing, it was for continued hospitalization.
I wasn't there, and I'm not sure of the legal qualification but they called it a hearing and a judge. =(
Gotcha. Sounds like some kind of administrative hearing.
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Gotcha. Sounds like some kind of administrative hearing.
And no doubt in the NICS database by now =(
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The problem with movies and videogames comes back to the fact that we now live in a society largely based on fantasy, all kinds, including, now, our very economy. Acting out through fantasy is not inherently a bad thing--kids do it through fairy tales--but when your only options for a full life are circumscribed within a fantasy world the problems begin. Ignoring what has been perpetrated on this culture is a mistake. We have needed to name names for a long time.
The problem with the NRA is not what they propose, it's that this very culture (see above) now views them--and by extension US--as demons worse than the Taliban or the Nazis. Welcome to the culture of persecution.
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you get to see some of the really far out whack jobs there
i lived in dc and worked on college campuses i've got a rogues gallery
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So LaPierre wants a massive expansion of the police state, blames the 1st Amendment, and wants a national registry of people to deprive of their liberty. Awesome. So every combat vet who's been screened and gotten diagnosed with some degree of PTSD (ie most of us), and the new DSM that says you're clinically depressed if you grieve the death of a lived one more than a few days millions and millions of folks would lose their rights and the NRA is cool with it.
I was going to renew my membership for multiple years and buy one for my infant daughter. But I refuse to support these idiots after that.
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So LaPierre wants a massive expansion of the police state, blames the 1st Amendment, and wants a national registry of people to deprive of their liberty. Awesome. So every combat vet who's been screened and gotten diagnosed with some degree of PTSD (ie most of us), and the new DSM that says you're clinically depressed if you grieve the death of a lived one more than a few days millions and millions of folks would lose their rights and the NRA is cool with it.
I was going to renew my membership for multiple years and buy one for my infant daughter. But I refuse to support these idiots after that.
Over-react much?
Have we not discussed putting armed guards/police in schools here on APS. (IIRC, the original proposal that floated around the interwebz was for unemployed Veterans to serve as the guards.) I think we can all agree that first thing that everyone wants when a bad guy with a gun shows up is for a good guy with a gun to be right there, right freakin' NOW!
It didn't hear any call for removing adjudication* from the mental health process to commit someone or strip them of their 2A (among other) rights.
And putting some blame on video games/Hollywood/The MSM for glamorizing mass murderers puts them on the defensive.
The most important part of fighting the battle is picking and then setting the battlefield. If we can change the debate to armed police officers in schools instead of AWB's, Magazine bans, outright gun bans and/or confiscations, then we've won.
And besides, they are correct. We need to harden the targets. If I was an Islamic terrorist, I'd sure as hell be paying attention.
*Adjudication- A hearing before a judge with the defendant/respondent having proper legal counsel.
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Caution is called for, but certainly La Pierre is trying to "deflect the conversation" in a smart way. Hardening our schools is a prudent proposal that might, who knows, gain traction.
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And no doubt in the NICS database by now =(
I don't know. Some states don't provide mental health info to NICS.
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I'd say they did alright. Better then a expected, but far from a slam dunk.
To heavy on the "trained professional" and the "eeevvviiiilll video games!" IMO.
Police or veterans in schools is a big step in the right direction that gun free zones aren't the answer. But, the "trained professional" thing erks me. Baby step maybe, but I'd prefer more then one line near the end of the press release giving the idea just removing the gun free zone is a big step in the right direction.
As for the video games, maybe Scout has a point. But not video game or movie in the world, or quantity of them, is going to MAKE someone batshit crazy if they weren't batshit crazy to begin with.
So yeah, some good points made in a fairly measured response. Could have been a little better, could have been a hell of a lot worse.
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Over-react much?
Have we not discussed putting armed guards/police in schools here on APS. (IIRC, the original proposal that floated around the interwebz was for unemployed Veterans to serve as the guards.) I think we can all agree that first thing that everyone wants when a bad guy with a gun shows up is for a good guy with a gun to be right there, right freakin' NOW!
It didn't hear any call for removing adjudication* from the mental health process to commit someone or strip them of their 2A (among other) rights.
And putting some blame on video games/Hollywood/The MSM for glamorizing mass murderers puts them on the defensive.
The most important part of fighting the battle is picking and then setting the battlefield. If we can change the debate to armed police officers in schools instead of AWB's, Magazine bans, outright gun bans and/or confiscations, then we've won.
And besides, they are correct. We need to harden the targets. If I was an Islamic terrorist, I'd sure as hell be paying attention.
*Adjudication- A hearing before a judge with the defendant/respondent having proper legal counsel.
Rationalize much?
1. TSA'ing our schools would be a massive waste of time and money as well as furthering the indoctrination of the police state as a good thing.
2. Mental health is the camel's nose under the tent that will make the 2nd irrelevant. We as a society are moving closer to everyone being diagnosable with something. And since the ATF is in charge of implementing regulations, all it takes is one vague line in a "common sense" NRA supported bill and suddenly you can't own guns anymore.
3. You like them attacking the 1st Amendment because what now? Any thought crime legislation will hit the alternative media that contradicts the official narrative, not Hollywood.
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Rationalize much?
1. TSA'ing our schools would be a massive waste of time and money as well as furthering the indoctrination of the police state as a good thing.
2. Mental health is the camel's nose under the tent that will make the 2nd irrelevant. We as a society are moving closer to everyone being diagnosable with something. And since the ATF is in charge of implementing regulations, all it takes is one vague line in a "common sense" NRA supported bill and suddenly you can't own guns anymore.
3. You like them attacking the 1st Amendment because what now? Any thought crime legislation will hit the alternative media that contradicts the official narrative, not Hollywood.
I think you are right on two and three but not on one. What is wrong with providing schools with armed protection?
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This wasn't a guardianship hearing, it was for continued hospitalization.
I wasn't there, and I'm not sure of the legal qualification but they called it a hearing and a judge. =(
Was this a psych facility, and the facility was looking to extend an involuntary committment? I have been at those sort of hearings, and they are generally held right there at the facility because it is easier and less stressful to the patient. I suppose it depends on your jurisdiction, but I have certainly seen counsel there representing the patient.
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Rationalize much?
1. TSA'ing our schools would be a massive waste of time and money as well as furthering the indoctrination of the police state as a good thing.
2. Mental health is the camel's nose under the tent that will make the 2nd irrelevant. We as a society are moving closer to everyone being diagnosable with something. And since the ATF is in charge of implementing regulations, all it takes is one vague line in a "common sense" NRA supported bill and suddenly you can't own guns anymore.
3. You like them attacking the 1st Amendment because what now? Any thought crime legislation will hit the alternative media that contradicts the official narrative, not Hollywood.
Oh sweet flaming Jesus on a Pogo Stick.
1. I didn't hear the NRA call for metal detectors, "people sniffers", Porn-o-scopes, or even having the little tykes remove their shoes before entering their school. So where did you get "TSA'ing our schools"? I've gone back and re-read what Wayne La Pierre said (http://home.nra.org/pdf/Transcript_PDF.pdf). "armed security", "armed police officers", "Armed, trained, qualified school security personnel".
2. Last I checked Mental Health is a disqualifying disability. But you have to be adjudicated. I didn't hear a call to change that process. You probably don't remember when GOA was going on and on about how some bill the NRA endorsed was going to take all Vet's 2A rights from them. But, when actually reading the bill, there was nothing of the sort in there. In fact, it restored the right so thousands of vets that had been put in the NICS database during the Clinton administration, without being adjudicated. There isn't a person that would not agree that Lanza, the Aurora movie guy, Gabby Giffords shooter, VA Tech shooter, or any other of the mass shooters were not Coo-Coo for Cocoa Puffs. In fact people who were very familiar with them all stated that they thought they "needed help." Yet, they did nothing to get them that help. If someone is that broken, they need family, friends, teachers, etc to step in and get them help and/or treatment and if that means having them adjudicated as "Mentally Defective", then so be it, if it gets them the help they need.
3. I didn't hear them call for a repeal of the 1st Amendment. I heard them shame the MSM for their complicity:
And throughout it all, too many in our national media … their corporate owners … and their stockholders … act as silent enablers, if not complicit co-conspirators. Rather than face their own moral failings, the media demonize lawful gun owners, amplify their cries for more laws and fill the national debate with misinformation and dishonest thinking that only delay meaningful action and all but guarantee that the next atrocity is only a news cycle away.
Finally, I haven't seen a written bill on what they propose. However, I'd be much more willing to bet that an NRA bill does more to protect ALL my rights, then one written by Joe Biden and friends.
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This is just the NRA being a single-issue advocacy group - protect the guns; screw all else.
I'll keep this thread in mind the next time someone complains that the NRA should be single-issue.
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Relevant ITT:
http://reason.com/blog/2012/12/21/the-nra-fights-anti-gun-hysteriawith-pro
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The fact is we do not need to get into a shouting match with the Left.
If the liberals scream that the world is ending because of guns, and the conservatives scream the world is ending because of video games and a lack of 'tracking the mentally ill' and there's nobody to say that the world is not ending, that's not going to be good for liberty.
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doesn't goa advertise on reason?
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the "trained professional" thing erks me
Me too =(
Was this a psych facility, and the facility was looking to extend an involuntary committment? I have been at those sort of hearings, and they are generally held right there at the facility because it is easier and less stressful to the patient. I suppose it depends on your jurisdiction, but I have certainly seen counsel there representing the patient.
The person in question was not totally conscious when presented for treatment, so it was really neither voluntary nor involuntary.
They don't automatically take away your rights when you have a head injury and have to be hospitalized, so I don't know why it works that way when there is some other sort of event.
I don't remember what the deal was with counsel. I think they threatened to make it way worse if the person sought legal representation. It sounded pretty much like a kangaroo court to me.
Anyway, it doesn't seem right that someone is basically considered "incurable" by the law, if they ever seek treatment for any sort of serious MH issue.
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doesn't goa advertise on reason?
Why, you have my argument all refuted.
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The NRA did much better then I expected. Plenty I can take issue with, but ill take it.
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Why, you have my argument all refuted.
you had an argument?
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So, what is wrong about what I said or linked to?
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So, what is wrong about what I said or linked to?
the description of the nra's remarks as hysteria.its similar to the lefts use of racist.
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the description of the nra's remarks as hysteria.its similar to the lefts use of racist.
;/ No.
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;/ No.
thanks for the affirmation
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I happen to agree about the violent video games, but I'm in a minority even here so I don't see that getting any traction and I believe it was a mistake to stress it -- probably to even mention it.
I would have preferred it if Wayne had joined the call for simply repealing gun-free school zones and allowing teachers, staff, and parents who have carry permits to carry sidearms in schools. His proposal IMHO plays into the "Only the police are trained to have guns" mentality.
And I would have preferred it if he had made more of a point that the issue isn't "gun" violence, the issue is "school" violence, and therefore that any efforts focusing exclusively or primarily on guns are missing the point.
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Let's see.....
1. Avoid suggesting that Gun-Free Zones be repealed....CHECK.
2. Go off on a tangent of blaming inanimate objects (video games) for evil behavior....CHECK.
3. Support creating another level of gov't bureaucracy to create a gov't funded program that may trickle money to the NRA....CHECK.
4. Take a group of professionals responsible enough to care for your children and refuse to acknowledge that they could be responsible enough to provide their own armed security....CHECK.
Yep....sounds like a NRA speech to me....
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I think it will go like this...
1. Condolences to the victims & families.
2. Offer to help school districts in securing their schools via training, whether they go armed or not.
3. Reaffirm 2A, Heller, & MacDonald and oppose any new gun-control laws.
....anything other than that risks the NRA sounding like another "Stupid Party"....
Well.....they even found a way to screw this up.... :facepalm:
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While I'm not a fan of "blaming video games and movies", I'm seeing this as a short term, strategic move by the NRA to disperse some blame away from guns, and maybe to stick a burr under the saddle of the entertainment industry's horse.
The NRA knows its way around inside the beltway. They take a lot of heat sometimes for how they operate and for making concessions on some stuff, but they've continually been a big enough player that they get to have sit-downs with congressmen and senators. To me that's huge, and the only way they can continue to do that is to play by beltway rules, and hopefully from time to time blindside and checkmate our opponents.
If the NRA started playing the bulldog, they would lose important alliances in DC. And frankly, when organizations like GOA have played attack dog, I've continually seen them put down for being too activist and making gun owners look bad. I kinda like that we can have organizations like GOA play bulldog and play on the edge and bring stuff to the forefront that the NRA can't easily do, while having the NRA remain the beltway behemoth.
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Oh sweet flaming Jesus on a Pogo Stick.
1. I didn't hear the NRA call for metal detectors, "people sniffers", Porn-o-scopes, or even having the little tykes remove their shoes before entering their school. So where did you get "TSA'ing our schools"? I've gone back and re-read what Wayne La Pierre said (http://home.nra.org/pdf/Transcript_PDF.pdf). "armed security", "armed police officers", "Armed, trained, qualified school security personnel".
2. Last I checked Mental Health is a disqualifying disability. But you have to be adjudicated. I didn't hear a call to change that process. You probably don't remember when GOA was going on and on about how some bill the NRA endorsed was going to take all Vet's 2A rights from them. But, when actually reading the bill, there was nothing of the sort in there. In fact, it restored the right so thousands of vets that had been put in the NICS database during the Clinton administration, without being adjudicated. There isn't a person that would not agree that Lanza, the Aurora movie guy, Gabby Giffords shooter, VA Tech shooter, or any other of the mass shooters were not Coo-Coo for Cocoa Puffs. In fact people who were very familiar with them all stated that they thought they "needed help." Yet, they did nothing to get them that help. If someone is that broken, they need family, friends, teachers, etc to step in and get them help and/or treatment and if that means having them adjudicated as "Mentally Defective", then so be it, if it gets them the help they need.
3. I didn't hear them call for a repeal of the 1st Amendment. I heard them shame the MSM for their complicity:
Finally, I haven't seen a written bill on what they propose. However, I'd be much more willing to bet that an NRA bill does more to protect ALL my rights, then one written by Joe Biden and friends.
Calling for hundreds of thousands more cops perpetuates the police state, and turns schools into prisons. Cops kill more innocents than all the spree killers put together, so I don't want another massive and wasteful bureaucracy in place to put the people far more statistically likely to kill kids in place in schools.
Mental health for folks who have been adjudicated is already disqualifying. Ergo, he must be calling for something additional. Otherwise all he was saying was we should enforce the law, which btw did nothing to prevent this. And as an aside, plenty of folks think that having more than a couple hundred rounds for a gun or believing the 2nd is about bein able to fight the government means you need help. I swear to God do you not remember the lesson of the Patriot Act? You give the gov that power and it'll be used against people who want to limit the gov not whatever boogeyman was used to pass the law.
Blaming inanimate objects for behavior is bullshit even when you don't like the objects. It's pathetic.
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Just to clarify, Balog, given one of your comments, I did not re-up with the NRA because they are ZOMG wonnerful!!! I did it because it's very good for our cause for the most high profile gun group to gain membership right now. It sends a message to both sides that millions of us are going to stick to our guns. And because I don't want to be AWOL when the fight is on. Which is why I'm also going to get back into the SAF.
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Just to clarify, Balog, given one of your comments, I did not re-up with the NRA because they are ZOMG wonnerful!!! I did it because it's very good for our cause for the most high profile gun group to gain membership right now. It sends a message to both sides that millions of us are going to stick to our guns. And because I don't want to be AWOL when the fight is on. Which is why I'm also going to get back into the SAF.
SAF I'll give money to. A "gun rights" org that wants to throw my rights to the wolves because I've had psych treatment? F### 'em.
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Just to clarify, Balog, given one of your comments, I did not re-up with the NRA because they are ZOMG wonnerful!!! I did it because it's very good for our cause for the most high profile gun group to gain membership right now. It sends a message to both sides that millions of us are going to stick to our guns. And because I don't want to be AWOL when the fight is on. Which is why I'm also going to get back into the SAF.
My sentiments are similar to Fistful's. We have found ourselves in the middle of a significant 2nd amendment battle. As Rumsfeld might say, "You go to war with the NRA you have, not the NRA you want." I do not agree with their tactics on everything, but I do know that at this juncture they alone have the clout to hold congresscritters feet to the fire, and block the gun bills that are coming. I also think that the NRA knows that a lot of us 2nd amendment absolutists are watching.
The NRA, SAF, CCRKBA, and AZCDL all got money from me recently, as they are all part of the same cause, and have different roles to play.
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SAF I'll give money to. A "gun rights" org that wants to throw my rights to the wolves because I've had psych treatment? F### 'em.
I don't think they've done that, but of course you must use your own best judgment.
I hope my comment about being AWOL wasn't taken the wrong way. I was talking about myself, and no one else. I don't think you're doing anything wrong by not supporting them. I think you just have a different opinion than I do.
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The SAF is an outstanding organization, but their role is primarily to deal with bad laws after they have been passed. I would prefer that the bad laws are killed when they are still just a bill.
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F4.bp.blogspot.com%2F_ByfZrLhEldc%2FSnSLRiKjViI%2FAAAAAAAABBQ%2F689k-_dPEC8%2Fs320%2FJust%2Ba%2BBill.jpg&hash=de26a18c75f721a6cebac4c9234bf1b150551ed4)
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As fisty says, we all have to use our own best judgement. I think the feds are trying backdoor a lot of bad law through the "mental health" BS, and I feel like the NRA is feeding into that. I don't really care if the lynch mob coming after my rights prefers the Brady's or the NRA.
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We should give zero ground and reject the progressive/media narrative out of hand.
Immediately shift to the right of self defense using the best tools available.
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I am a NRA life member, a SAF life member, and if anyone recommends other ones, ill sign up for those as well. Hell, I donate money to ANY legitimate RKBA supporting organization, from a single person (Oleg) to a monolith (NRA).
The reason I push for the NRA and am a member is different org's do different things, but one thing the NRA does is promote various programs (Eddie eagle in particular) that increase firearm safety and awareness in a way that gets more to our side. What I've found is the vast majority of people actually enjoy shooting once they try it, and just have few opportunities to do so. The NRA recognizes this. You may say they cater to sportsman over pure RKBA, but for every X people that become firearm owners due to sport, there is a non-zero fraction that also become (over time) strong RKBA as well, so swelling the ranks of either works to our advantage.
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I'm a lifetime NRA member with no regrets.
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I am just shy of getting my Life Membership (EPL). Should have it by March.
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I have been a life member for awhile now, have been wearing the jacket more often too
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I'd be interested to know exactly what the NRA has proposed in regards to mental health, that you find so offensive?
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My local range called me, and are offering NRA life memberships for $300.00.
So I signed up tonight...
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Personally, the NRA impressed me.
I intend to sign up again, perhaps see about a life membership. But, they have to add me to the "Do not market to" list. Last time I was a member, I'm pretty sure they spent all my money on postage mailing me propaganda/offers.
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My local range called me, and are offering NRA life memberships for $300.00.
So I signed up tonight...
What I find funny is that there are a number of the anti-gun folks scoffing at the increase in NRA memberships by saying "Of course they have more members, life membership is now only $300 instead of $1000!" I wonder how many of the Brady supporters bother to donate $25, let alone $300 or $1000?
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I'd be interested to know exactly what the NRA has proposed in regards to mental health, that you find so offensive?
Anything more than what we do now (adjudicated as a danger unable to own guns) is offensive to me, as it will likely bar me and most other combat vets from gun ownership. So since they are proposing "doing more" the exact details aren't terribly relevant. Trusting the NRA to not sell me out is kind of like NY residents trusting their GOP senators.
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I don't have a link but I do like the NRAs ad calling Obama a hypocrit because his kids go to school with armed security but the rest of us don't need it.
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I don't have a link but I do like the NRAs ad calling Obama a hypocrit because his kids go to school with armed security but the rest of us don't need it.
So far, it's a pretty good PR campaign.
http://www.nrastandandfight.com/school-security.html
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Of course the left is nearly apoplectic with their outrage over it. How dare the NRA bring Obama's children into the politics. Of course it's OK for Obama to use other people's kids for his political posturing,
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Of course the left is nearly apoplectic with their outrage over it. How dare the NRA bring Obama's children into the politics. Of course it's OK for Obama to use other people's kids for his political posturing,
I wondered the same thing. Obama carts out a group of kids and talks about how little Suzy wrote him a letter asking him to do something and how he is going to try really hard. I don't think anyone begrudges Obama's kids having Secret Service protection, but their school also has some 14+ armed guards. My kids, by law, can't have any lawful armed presence in their school. How are my kids less deserving of protection?
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Your kids are not the inheritors of the Progressive Globalist vision. Know your place.
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Anything more than what we do now (adjudicated as a danger unable to own guns) is offensive to me, as it will likely bar me and most other combat vets from gun ownership. So since they are proposing "doing more" the exact details aren't terribly relevant. Trusting the NRA to not sell me out is kind of like NY residents trusting their GOP senators.
I find that extremely short sighted. From what I have read, the NRA is recommending that those that need treatment be able to get it, without the fear of loss of one's civil rights. I remember the fight over NICS Improvement Bill. The NRA put things in there to help veterans (especially those that had been put into the NICS system by the VA, without having been adjudicated). The NRA has been one of the staunchest allies of Veterans and their rights.
So come out against the NRA because they said we need to "do more" in regards mental health, doesn't seem like using critical thinking skills. Had they come out and said "PTSD=No Guns" then yes, I would agree with you 100%. But I do know what the NRA has said in the past is that states need to do a better job of ensuring that information about those THAT HAVE BEEN ADJUDICATED be entered and shared.
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I find that extremely short sighted. From what I have read, the NRA is recommending that those that need treatment be able to get it, without the fear of loss of one's civil rights. I remember the fight over NICS Improvement Bill. The NRA put things in there to help veterans (especially those that had been put into the NICS system by the VA, without having been adjudicated). The NRA has been one of the staunchest allies of Veterans and their rights.
So come out against the NRA because they said we need to "do more" in regards mental health, doesn't seem like using critical thinking skills. Had they come out and said "PTSD=No Guns" then yes, I would agree with you 100%. But I do know what the NRA has said in the past is that states need to do a better job of ensuring that information about those THAT HAVE BEEN ADJUDICATED be entered and shared.
I find the amount of trust you place in the organization naive. The heart of the ILA is not idealists fighting for our rights, it's a bunch of guys who make six figure salaries sucking up to poli-critters. Give 'em a big enough pay raise and they'd be doing for the VPC or Brady bunch. They've already shown their willingness to oppose efforts to fight laws in court, and to throw groups under the bus if they feel it'll further the overall agenda. I think they'd go full Zumbo if they thought they could get away with it.
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Personally, the NRA impressed me.
I intend to sign up again, perhaps see about a life membership. But, they have to add me to the "Do not market to" list. Last time I was a member, I'm pretty sure they spent all my money on postage mailing me propaganda/offers.
Interestingly, I joined last summer but have received very little in the way of mailings from the NRA. The stories I had heard of people's mailboxes being inundated with flyers from the NRA hasn't happened to me, and I had made no request to be added to a "No marketing/mailing" list. I'm getting maybe 3-4 emails a week from the NRA but don't find it an inconvenience since they're easily deleted.
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I wondered the same thing. Obama carts out a group of kids and talks about how little Suzy wrote him a letter asking him to do something and how he is going to try really hard. I don't think anyone begrudges Obama's kids having Secret Service protection, but their school also has some 14+ armed guards. My kids, by law, can't have any lawful armed presence in their school. How are my kids less deserving of protection?
People need to ask themselves - who is more important to me, my own children or a bunch of overpaid politicians and celebrities? I know it won't matter to some, like the "end justifies the means" types or the radical pacifists who won't even lift a finger to protect their own children if given the opportunity. THAT is where people should be directing their "enough is enough!" energy. Why do my kids deserve less protection? Let's turn class warfare back on them.
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As someone elsewhere has pointed out each organization has its own function and purpose. SAF goes after crappy laws and crappy states in courts. State org's hammer on state and local .gov's and the NRA is the 800# gorilla on Capitol Hill. People can take about the GOA and other groups, but the ones mentioned by the press and the anti's is the NRA.
And one final thought. When you are done bad-mouthing them, take a moment and thank them for the 2008 NICS Improvement bill. If it hadn't been for the NRA getting that passed, I can pretty much guarantee that Obama would have the record of every vet that ever mentioned PTSD to the VA on the NICS list as of yesterday.
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Wow, someone on the Internet was a snide, condescending prick because I hold legitimate concerns about a political organization. I'm gonna go become a lifetime member right now!!!! ;/
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Wow, someone on the Internet was a snide, condescending prick because I hold legitimate concerns about a political organization. I'm gonna go become a lifetime member right now!!!! ;/
Um, who? ??? Scout hasn't been that way. I don't think I have.
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Wow, someone on the Internet was a snide, condescending prick because I hold legitimate concerns about a political organization. I'm gonna go become a lifetime member right now!!!! ;/
Um.
Do what?
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Human institutions are untrustworthy and cannot be counted on in the long run as a general rule. This includes the NRA.
Looking at their recent history I think it is safe to say that they are reflecting our point of view more than the Zumbo point of view.
When they "jump the shark" I'll break bad on them publicly. So far they have done a pretty good job at being on the right side of things.