Author Topic: NRA's Inaccurate Statements about Obama  (Read 44699 times)

DaveBeal

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Re: NRA's Inaccurate Statements about Obama
« Reply #75 on: September 26, 2008, 05:24:16 AM »
Since you guys like to ask me questions, let me ask you one.

Do you think that ammo capable of being fired out of a handgun and piercing armor should be available to civilians?  And yes, I know that there are different classes of body armor.  Feel feel to make the question more specific if you like.

Nitrogen

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Re: NRA's Inaccurate Statements about Obama
« Reply #76 on: September 26, 2008, 05:27:13 AM »
yes.
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wmenorr67

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Re: NRA's Inaccurate Statements about Obama
« Reply #77 on: September 26, 2008, 05:27:27 AM »
Since you guys like to ask me questions, let me ask you one.

Do you think that ammo capable of being fired out of a handgun and piercing armor should be available to civilians?  And yes, I know that there are different classes of body armor.  Feel feel to make the question more specific if you like.

Can you not read.  It already is out there.  But the answer would be yes.
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DaveBeal

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Re: NRA's Inaccurate Statements about Obama
« Reply #78 on: September 26, 2008, 05:41:49 AM »
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Can you not read.

Yes, I can.  But thanks for asking.

Quote
It already is out there.  But the answer would be yes.

Given that armor piercing ammo would likely be used against law enforcement, why shouldn't it be banned?

mtnbkr

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Re: NRA's Inaccurate Statements about Obama
« Reply #79 on: September 26, 2008, 05:44:47 AM »
Given that armor piercing ammo would likely be used against law enforcement, why shouldn't it be banned?

Any rifle ammo can pierce the armor worn by law enforcement.  That is the root problem of the bill.

Besides, who cares if it pierces armor?  Once again, why limit law abiding citizens?  The criminals will still get this via the black market, the only ones who won't be able to get it are the ones who wouldn't use it illegally in the first place.  Where have I heard that before...

Chris

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Re: NRA's Inaccurate Statements about Obama
« Reply #80 on: September 26, 2008, 05:46:54 AM »
Since you guys like to ask me questions, let me ask you one.

Do you think that ammo capable of being fired out of a handgun and piercing armor should be available to civilians?  And yes, I know that there are different classes of body armor.  Feel feel to make the question more specific if you like.

Yes, I see no reason to punish the people in advance for actions that may or may not happen with an inanimate object. Just like I beliieve Chicago's ban on handguns is unconstitutional, I also believe the 1986 ban on title 2 weapons is just as unconstitutional as DC's handgun  ban. Which part of "shall not be infringed is too complicated" for you?

AmbulanceDriver

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Re: NRA's Inaccurate Statements about Obama
« Reply #81 on: September 26, 2008, 05:50:07 AM »
Because maybe I like to shoot paper targets or milk jugs with a .223 pistol.

Or maybe because I like to shoot those same targets with an AR-style rifle, and a ban on "armor-piercing" ammunition would ban the ammunition for that rifle.

Because basically ANY rifle ammunition could be classified as "armor-piercing". 

That means the .30-06 ammo for your hunting rifle, or the .308, or the .30-30, could all be banned.

And no, I don't trust the politicians to NOT ban something just because "we don't think they really would ban all those."

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AZRedhawk44

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Re: NRA's Inaccurate Statements about Obama
« Reply #82 on: September 26, 2008, 05:58:34 AM »
Since you guys like to ask me questions, let me ask you one.

Do you think that ammo capable of being fired out of a handgun and piercing armor should be available to civilians?  And yes, I know that there are different classes of body armor.  Feel feel to make the question more specific if you like.

Yes, it should.

And the word you're looking for is CITIZENS, not civilians.

I should be able to buy tungsten-carbide core, teflon-coated .22 rimfire ammo made specially for snubnose revolvers if I want to.  No matter how wonderful a system of government is, they all commit abuses and fail eventually... even this one.  The 2A is there to prolong that day, and equip us the People when that day does sadly come.
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Firethorn

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Re: NRA's Inaccurate Statements about Obama
« Reply #83 on: September 26, 2008, 06:02:07 AM »
Do you think that ammo capable of being fired out of a handgun and piercing armor should be available to civilians?

Short answer - Yes.

Long answer - Much like recent advances in genetic science has blurred the lines between species, the line between a 'handgun' round and a 'rifle' round is a blurred one.

Just look at the .22LR round.  The LR stands for "Long Rifle", but I'd guess half the ammo is used in handguns today.  Why not?  You get a light cheap plinker, and can have 8 or even more shots in a revolver that still fits your hand.

Moving up in power, take the .45ACP round.  "Automatic Colt Pistol", so it's a handgun round, right?  Except that last time I went deer hunting I did so with a gent who had a semi-automatic rifle chambered in that round.  Called a "Carbine", it's a shorter rifle.  While he wouldn't be able to make long range shots with it, the .45 ACP ammo does gain a substantial amount of velocity with the extra length of barrel, and becomes a substantial deer rifle in wooded, mountainous terrain where the shots are relatively close.  The lower recoil allows him to make fast, accurate follow up shots.

Now let's look at the opposite end.  The .50BMG has had a handgun made that fires it.  There are AR pistols chambered in .223/5.56.  Lever action guns in .22, .357, and .44.  Revolvers that chamber the .30-30.  Etc...

This very fact has been used to ban ammunition normally chambered in rifles in other legislation, because the act has no wording to exempt the occasional wierd handgun.

Another problem is that it talks about ammunition capable of penetrating body armor without specifying the class of armor.  As others have noted, Level 1 bodyarmor doesn't stop much as is.

Last, it says 'ammunition capable'.  What happens if a future Attorney General that's markedly anti-gun, proceeds to load 9mm(plenty of handguns in this caliber!) into a carbine and shoot it at a level 1 vest?  The extra 150 fps can make quite a difference.  Ump, almost all 9mm is banned, much less all the rifle cartridges out there.  Might even manage to get a penetration with a .22LR out of a rifle.

It was a very bad piece of legislation and I'm glad it died.  Still, I look at whole records - and Obama has managed to get a reputation for having never seen a gun control bill he didn't like.

Finally - Do the Police really NEED this protection?  At the cost of stomping on all of our rights?  I'd tend to say no - a career as a police officer doesn't even make the top 10 list for most dangerous professions.  Pilots, Loggers, Fishermen, all have a drastically higher chance of dying on the job than a police officer.  More officers are killed with their own weapons than are killed through their body armor - whether that be by defective vest or facing a weapon that it's not rated to handle, such as a rifle.

K Frame

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Re: NRA's Inaccurate Statements about Obama
« Reply #84 on: September 26, 2008, 06:04:51 AM »
"Do you think that ammo capable of being fired out of a handgun and piercing armor should be available to civilians?"

Why shouldn't it be available to law-abiding people?

Using the political logic being espoused here, wouldn't it be just as effective to pass a law banning criminals from possessing this kind of ammo, and more importantly, SHOOTING someone with it?

According to most Democrats/liberals in general, all problems can be solved with the simple passage of a law. They still haven't figured out that passing new laws isn't effective when you're not willing to enforce laws that are already on the books, laws like:

1. It's already illegal to shoot someone.

2. It's already illegal for felons to possess ammunition and/or firearms.


The problem isn't that this ammunition is available. FEW police officers are ever shot with ammunition that can be actually termed "armored piercing."

It's that Democrats want to enact gun control legislation by any means that they can, and they don't care how much truth is against them, or how many lies they have to craft to get their pet project accomplished.
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Manedwolf

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Re: NRA's Inaccurate Statements about Obama
« Reply #85 on: September 26, 2008, 06:06:28 AM »
Quote
It already is out there.  But the answer would be yes.

Given that armor piercing ammo would likely be used against law enforcement, why shouldn't it be banned?

Oh, so you're automatically assuming that all law-abiding citizens will misuse said ammo? Funny, I have some. It's never hurt anyone.

Why not just BAN ALL GUNS then?

Oh, that's right. That's what you want.

El Tejon

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Re: NRA's Inaccurate Statements about Obama
« Reply #86 on: September 26, 2008, 06:19:52 AM »
I too have tens of thousands of "armor piercing" rifle cartridges in my basement.  Not a single round has been directed against law enforcement.

Why I am presumed to be a criminal just because I possess some inert piece of metal?

Are all men rapists?
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K Frame

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Re: NRA's Inaccurate Statements about Obama
« Reply #87 on: September 26, 2008, 06:25:59 AM »
"Funny, I have some. It's never hurt anyone."

Holy hell, Manedwolf. How WRONG you are!

Your having that ammo is making liberals everywhere cringe! And cringing HURTS!  laugh
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Ben

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Re: NRA's Inaccurate Statements about Obama
« Reply #88 on: September 26, 2008, 06:26:48 AM »
Quote
Given that armor piercing ammo would likely be used against law enforcement, why shouldn't it be banned?

This question has been asked and answered already multiple times, with multiple clear explanations, including the obvious fact that it doesn't have to be labeled "armor piercing" to be capable of defeating many types of armor. The fact that you continue to alternate between asking this question and saying it isn't so only leads one to believe that you're trolling, or that you simply can't grasp physics.
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nico

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Re: NRA's Inaccurate Statements about Obama
« Reply #89 on: September 26, 2008, 06:27:52 AM »
Since you guys like to ask me questions, let me ask you one.

Do you think that ammo capable of being fired out of a handgun and piercing armor should be available to civilians?  And yes, I know that there are different classes of body armor.  Feel feel to make the question more specific if you like.

Absolutely.  

Quote
Given that armor piercing ammo would likely be used against law enforcement, why shouldn't it be banned?
Who says it's a given?  You?  You've already demonstrated your utter lack of knowledge regarding guns and gun laws, so I'm going to need some proof of this "given" before I buy it.  

Besides, to paraphrase Don Kates, in a free country it's up to the people who want to restrict freedoms to prove that the benefits of those restrictions outweigh the costs.  So, where's your proof?

DaveBeal

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Re: NRA's Inaccurate Statements about Obama
« Reply #90 on: September 26, 2008, 06:32:02 AM »
I'm sorry that I don't have time to read all your responses right now, so I'll just pick one that jumps out at me.

Quote
I should be able to buy tungsten-carbide core, teflon-coated .22 rimfire ammo made specially for snubnose revolvers if I want to.

But this is like saying that I should be allowed to slander someone because the First Amendment guarantees free speech, or that I should be allowed to start a riot, because of freedom of assembly.  All constitutionally-protected rights are subject to limitations.  We just don't agree on what those limitations should be.

And I don't buy the "When X is outlawed, only outlaws will have X" argument, because its logical extension is that we'd might as well repeal all laws, because criminals by definition don't obey them.  Deterrence is a major purpose of law, and is why some gun control laws may be justified.

But I'm pretty sure we've all heard each others' arguments before, and that no one is going to change anybody's mind here.

AZRedhawk44

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Re: NRA's Inaccurate Statements about Obama
« Reply #91 on: September 26, 2008, 06:33:17 AM »
I'm sorry that I don't have time to read all your responses right now, so I'll just pick one that jumps out at me.

Quote
I should be able to buy tungsten-carbide core, teflon-coated .22 rimfire ammo made specially for snubnose revolvers if I want to.

But this is like saying that I should be allowed to slander someone because the First Amendment guarantees free speech, or that I should be allowed to start a riot, because of freedom of assembly.  All constitutionally-protected rights are subject to limitations.  We just don't agree on what those limitations should be.

And I don't buy the "When X is outlawed, only outlaws will have X" argument, because its logical extension is that we'd might as well repeal all laws, because criminals by definition don't obey them.  Deterrence is a major purpose of law, and is why some gun control laws may be justified.


If I shoot a police officer with that ammunition, THEN I've broken a law.

Possession is not intent to kill.
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K Frame

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Re: NRA's Inaccurate Statements about Obama
« Reply #92 on: September 26, 2008, 06:33:55 AM »
"Why I am presumed to be a criminal just because I possess some inert piece of metal?"

Yep, that's it.

That's a CRUCIAL difference between how liberals view guns and how conservatives view guns, not to mention most other things.

Liberals have the firm belief that anyone who has access to, or wants, a gun is a predicate criminal. Doesn't matter if they're a physician with a spotless record of helping heal the poor, give 90% of their salary to good causes, volunteer on the weekends, etc.

If they have, or want, something like this, they're criminals and must be stopped in their tracks.

The liberal elements have learned nothing from the great social experiment that was Prohibition. You don't resolve a problem by attacking the object, you solve a problem by attacking the actor. Liberals never will learn that.
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DaveBeal

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Re: NRA's Inaccurate Statements about Obama
« Reply #93 on: September 26, 2008, 06:36:05 AM »
Quote
If I shoot a police officer with that ammunition, THEN I've broken a law.

Possession is not intent to kill.

Good point, AZR.  I can go with that.

K Frame

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Re: NRA's Inaccurate Statements about Obama
« Reply #94 on: September 26, 2008, 06:44:15 AM »
Your argument about limitations on free speech is a complete non sequitor because it doesn't approach, to nearly the same degree, the limitations that have been called for by those who would ban ammunition based on quasi-mythicial characteristics.

How would prohibitions on speech approach proposed prohibitions on ammunition?

From now on, you are allowed to communicate orally and in writing using ONLY pronouns and indefinite articles. The use of verbs and nouns is now prohibited by law because the use of nouns and verbs allows construction of sentences that have the potential to mischaracterize or defame an individual, a group of individuals, or the government. Such reckless and callous speech cannot, in a modern society, be allowed. Violations of this law are punishable by up to 5 years in prison. Repeat offenders will have their vocal cords surgically removed and their hands amputated so that they can't offend again.

Concept is kind of stupid and silly, no?

But that's exactly what people like Teddy Kennedy, Barak Obama, and Hillary Clinton want to do.


Oh, and how's that penis? How many women you rape today?

What? You mean you're NOT a rapist? Why, you're certainly (I hope) equipped to be one, and if you possess the tool, you MUST be the perpetrator...


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AZRedhawk44

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Re: NRA's Inaccurate Statements about Obama
« Reply #95 on: September 26, 2008, 06:48:41 AM »
Quote
From now on, you are allowed to communicate orally and in writing using ONLY pronouns and indefinite articles.

a him at that to there!  a him at that to there! angel

He was bad! police

Oops... off to prison I go. grin
"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist."
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Tallpine

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Re: NRA's Inaccurate Statements about Obama
« Reply #96 on: September 26, 2008, 06:50:07 AM »
Quote
I'll vote for Obama because I think my view of the world overall is more similar to his than to McCain's.  And the thought of Sarah Palin in the White House scares the heck out of me.

I think I see the problem ...  rolleyes
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Intune

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Re: NRA's Inaccurate Statements about Obama
« Reply #97 on: September 26, 2008, 07:21:30 AM »
DB,
Quote
Good point, AZR.  I can go with that.
 Great!  In all seriousness, no sarcasm.  Which is unusual for me.   angel   That's a start.  

None on this board intend to "dog" you so please don't be offended.  Stay & learn.  We just get tired of correcting all of the misinformation that is spewed by gun grabbers.

I took a coworker from NY shooting last year and the mere sight of my SAR-1 actually scared him.  It was strange, almost Pavlovian.   He looked around & said, "whoa, aren't those illegal?   Dang, you have a machine gun.  Is it safe to pick up?"  rolleyes   He jumped when I racked it to check the chamber!  grin  

This is after shooting 30-06 & 6.5x55 rifles with no weirdness.  After he inspected the SAR-1 I handed him a 7.62x39 cartridge & then gave him a 30-06.  He could not believe the difference.  "Then what makes them so dangerous?" He asked.  I smiled, shook my head sadly and said, "have a seat, we gotta straighten you out on a few things..."  And no, I didn't dog the .223 misguided folks even though I did mention how tiny it was.  Wink  (See,DB, THAT's how you get things riled up 'round here.)  Psst, mention the puny 9mm...  angel

Manedwolf

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Re: NRA's Inaccurate Statements about Obama
« Reply #98 on: September 26, 2008, 07:25:33 AM »
"Funny, I have some. It's never hurt anyone."

Holy hell, Manedwolf. How WRONG you are!

Your having that ammo is making liberals everywhere cringe! And cringing HURTS!  laugh

This is true. If told the capabilities of old 30-06 tungsten core AP, which you can get at any flea market around here, they might soil themselves.

Oddly, nobody has ever been hurt with any, nor has any been used against any police.

K Frame

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Re: NRA's Inaccurate Statements about Obama
« Reply #99 on: September 26, 2008, 07:28:31 AM »
Tungsten core .30-06?

I don't think anyone has ever made .30-06 ammo with a tungsten penetrator...

During WW II the stuff was WAY too dear to use in anything other than anti-tank artillery shells.

WW II era black tip has a hardened steel penetrator.
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