Can of Mongolian thunder death-worms: Why exactly is it racist...?

[kgbsquirrel]

Yes but higher education may also lead to higher intelligence in regards to if you grow up in an educated household you are more prone toward developing a higher intelligence. I'm saying environment has a hand in there as well.

That would make sense with regards to the nurturing portion of my thoughts Nature & Nurture* in so much as the child is more likely to be exposed to beneficial experiences while the brain is still undergoing significant development (far more than the brain of a 30 year old for example), however past the formative years I would pose that education merely expands the bulk of the stored knowledge a person possesses, rather than increases a persons innate abilities of deduction, reasoning, and the accuracy and capacity of memory.


*My thoroughly unscientific and personal thoughts on Nature and Nurture with regards to human intelligence. Nature: the specific construction and composition of the brain due to genetically inherited traits, ie the blueprint for that organ locked in their DNA. Nurture: improved nutrition and educational experiences during the first years of life that promote development of neural connections and such that improve cognitive function in various categories.

[280plus]

I would say it is precisely the nurturing or lack thereof in the formative years that predisposes the individual in their capacity or desire to learn.

I think all I'm really trying to say is it sounds a little too pat for me to generalize and say "Jews are smarter" because of a genetic predisposition. I may not be saying it right though. I thnk the evironment they grow up in also has an effect. I'd like a way to figure that in as well as the idiosyncracies of IQ tests vs various ethnic groups before I were to make such a statement. Nearly impossible I would think.

Like this, take two random but ordered samplings of 100 lets say. Jewish v non Jewish Americans. Ordered by income. 25% $500,000 or more, 25% $250,000, 25% $100,00 and 25% less than $100,000 per year or something along those lines. Give them all the same IQ test, see if the Jewish folk score better.

That, I believe, would provide somewhat more accurate results.

The hard part will be finding 25 Jews around here that make less than $100,000 per year. Yea, I said it. 

  

[makattak]

I would say it is precisely the nurturing or lack thereof in the formative years that predisposes the individual in their capacity or desire to learn.

Studies of twins raised separately suggests your premise is mistaken.

[kgbsquirrel]

Studies of twins raised separately suggests your premise is mistaken.

What sort of differences in their environment were noted in the studies? (Differences in nutrition, parental encouragement, access to instructional materials, etc.)

[280plus]

Right, show me twins that were raised on opposite sides of the spectrum and the results of testing done on them.

[PTK]

MENSA wants me but I'm just a little too smart to give them my money. 

Ditto. I'm fairly certain that was the common sense portion of their entrance test.

[Lanius]

MENSA to me seems like one of them  circle-J routines.  And it takes money to join  ?

The problem with IQ tests is, that you can 'learn' to do better to do on them. At least, one of my father's colleagues, a mathematician turned software analyst, tried it, and managed to 'raise' his IQ from ~130 to ~155 over a few months of infrequent practice.

Sure, there is a good correlation between IQ test results and other things, but the membership of MENSA likely takes the whole thing too seriously, and I'd be willing to bet a lot of them practice them test thingies.

Whereas I got a straight very good percentile on a kind of test I've never seen before, which doesn't make me eligible for Mensa, nevertheless, it's always nice to see something of mine is rated 'superior to very superior'.

[AJ Dual]

MENSA to me seems like one of them  circle-J routines.  And it takes money to join  ?

Okay... for someone complaining that English is his third language... you seem to have your idioms down pat. 

[Lanius]

I have a rather high verbal IQ  That and lots of practice. On the last count, the number of fiction books I've read in English was around 230+.

[Lanius]

I would say it is precisely the nurturing or lack thereof in the formative years that predisposes the individual in their capacity or desire to learn.

Early years are very important. There's evidence that children who are neglected in the first several years of life are worse off, I think.

Also, having a mother who doesn't like you can eff people up. One of my blood relatives, an uncle, is a 'mistake(contraception failed, is my guess)', that is, he was born to a conceited and ambitious woman(she was also very capable) while she was studying at a university. He's a very weird person, prone to violent rages, sudden mood swings and sulking. His brothers(10 yrs older) are well adjusted adults who have some shortcomings, but are mostly good company.

[280plus]

I have a rather high verbal IQ  That and lots of practice. On the last count, the number of fiction books I've read in English was around 230+.

I'm sorry, around here we calculate the number of books we have read in linear feet. I'm at a mere 35 myself. Some around here are way past that. Yea, we're scary. 

 

Yes, The only people smarter than a MENSA member are the ones that qualified but didn't give them any money. 

[Lanius]

Hmm.. the average English book I've read is abour 1.2 inches thick. 230 * 1.2 is 230 + 46 = 276 inches, or mere 23 linear feet. I have no idea how many Czech or Slovak books I've read though.

Still, I'm barely in my mid twenties, and most people say I have the common sense of an eleven year old..

[MicroBalrog]

Still, I'm barely in my mid twenties, and most people say I have the common sense of an eleven year old..

I'd call this an improvement on most adults I know.

[grampster]

So, Lanius.  Welcome aboard.  Are you still in Czek or in the Florida Keys?

[280plus]

I'd call this an improvement on most adults I know.

Not sure where I come in on that. lol

[Lanius]

Why should I be in the Florida Keys? It's a nice place sure, but I don't have the money to just jaunt over to the US.
Wish I had, but the damned commies made sure I won't have a trust fund back in 1948 and in 1921 too.   

I'm pissed. It's better to be a slacker/engineering student if you can slack in style and can afford steaks.

[grampster]

We spend the winter in Key West and there are a lot of young people from Czek who live and work in the Keys.  Just wonder how you found APS outside the USA.

[Perd Hapley]

We spend the winter in Key West and there are a lot of young people from Czek who live and work in the Keys.  Just wonder how you found APS outside the USA.

The internet is a series of tubes...

[280plus]

all connected by Al Gore...

[grampster]

...who is constantly looking for tubettes.

[Lanius]

I was on THR a bit, on and off. Then started posting more on GRM, and then went here.

I'm also posting a bit on certain Czech forums, but people there are no fun. I mean, on GRM, moderators derail discussions, and on Czech forums, even being slightly offtopic gets you banned for a month. A german disease.

I also follow Oleg's photography a bit, hoping I may be inspired. I have a DSLR, and can almost use it..

I'll go see the US, once the dollar really crashes and money earned here will be like gold there. By that time, I should have some stashed away and will have more reasons to travel.

My grandfather used to say how Czechoslovak Crowns were as good as pounds back in the 1930's. Czechoslovakia was the only remaining capitalist democracy in central Europe back then..

Too bad McArthur or Patton wasn't US president back in 1948. Maybe the Soviets'd have blinked and left us alone.

Patton, IMO,'d have been a superb president. That man was no bullshitter. Shame that Stalin had him iced.

[Lanius]

So back on topic.

Let's suppose we agree that not all human groupings by ethnic or religion have equal average intelligence?

What shall be done about it? Dumb down others? Let it remain that way? Doesn't that mess up with equality of chances?

Should one day certain groups be genetically engineered or bred to be smarter? Are there too many smart people?

[Ned Hamford]

I have no doubt at all that when grouped by religion, race, favorite type of underwear, or what have you, there are variances in group intelligence.  But seeing as people are people, there will always be outliers for even groups with the poorest showing.  I've also no doubt that there is variance over time, further enforcing that looking at people as individuals rather than merely group members is the best way to go about life. 

And of course there is a wide number of types of intelligence.  I know I'd rather have someone with common sense about than an ivory tower type.

So sayeth Ned Hamford, Esq.   

[Lanius]

The scientists I know have a lot of common sense.

I mean, you can't be teach at an engineering school and be stupid. That's like swimming if one is a non-metaphorical basket case. Possible, but very short-lived.

[seeker_two]

Too bad McArthur or Patton wasn't US president back in 1948. Maybe the Soviets'd have blinked and left us alone.

Patton, IMO,'d have been a superb president. That man was no bull*expletive deleted*ter. Shame that Stalin had him iced.

Wrong superpower, chief.....think closer to home.....