Author Topic: Montana moves to repeal medical marijuana laws  (Read 50909 times)

PTK

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Re: Montana moves to repeal medical marijuana laws
« Reply #125 on: February 17, 2011, 07:32:31 PM »
So I could get paid to NOT grow it..?   =D



First thought that went through my mind, too! :D
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Montana moves to repeal medical marijuana laws
« Reply #126 on: February 17, 2011, 07:58:13 PM »
mb you have carte blanche as far as i'm concerned as far as confronting me.  its never been calling me out that i've ever seen .

we come from different positions i think largely because we've had different experience/exposure to the issue and the various conflicts that arise within it.
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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MicroBalrog

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Re: Montana moves to repeal medical marijuana laws
« Reply #127 on: February 17, 2011, 08:11:58 PM »
Okay, do you understand what my position is?

I'm going to restate it in a more overt fashion.

I believe - and it's a serious moral belief for me, in which I am quite as set as some members of this forum are in their beliefs about abortion - that the laws against drug use are morally wrong. I support legalization not only on the grounds that it would reduce crime or what not, but because I believe arresting people, imprisoning etc. for doing drugs, is morally wrong.

I am not actively involved with the legalization movement in my own country - largely because of the issues you highlighted - but I also feel that, within the moral belief that I hold, reporting people to law enforcement for doing drugs or selling drugs would make me morally complicit in their arrest, imprisonment, and whatever else happens to them as a result.

~~Edited, typo fixed
« Last Edit: February 18, 2011, 02:05:46 AM by MicroBalrog »
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gunsmith

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Re: Montana moves to repeal medical marijuana laws
« Reply #128 on: February 17, 2011, 11:34:45 PM »
I know a grower in SF, produces a few pounds every other month.
He likes things the way they are, he's making 3 to 5 grand  a month ( sometimes  a lot  more ) for very little real work.
He's totally against legalization, the med MJ movement allows him cover as he sells mostly on the black market.
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Tuco

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Re: Montana moves to repeal medical marijuana laws
« Reply #129 on: February 18, 2011, 11:17:27 PM »
Holy smokes, what a mess.!!
I go away on business for a few days and look what you guys do to the place.
Quite simply, you don't know me. .....
I've been diagnosed with spinal arthritis, chronic heart issues (currently, my heart functions at 40% of estimated average for my age), sciatic neuritis, and more things than I care to list. I've had four heart attacks, and I'm not yet 30.
I do know that.
You've posted it before.

So, it's your opinion that I'm "just a stoner", a drug addict, don't really need to dull my pain, and/or that everyone is in pain and I should just suck it up, so on and so on.

You seem to have missed the point.  YOU are the only one talking about you. 
I'm talking about the issues and the division between legitimate medicinal use and the abusers. I have said repeatedly in this thread that I believe weed should not be illegal, but it should be regulated.  I have also pointed out that recreation drug users are not only riding the coattails of the MM movement, they are pushing it quickly into an area that will harm the MM movement's ability to be taken seriously. 

Yea, I guess that does need to be dealt with, to fight attempts to reverse legislation.  I'm not going to do it.  You want to maintain MM?
Then it's your job
Everyone needs to self-police their own domain, if it's worth keeping.


I pray that you never get seriously injured. I doubt you'd be able to deal with what I have, based on your opinions of people in pain. :(
Right.
Now, since it's always about you -
I've never accused YOU of anything, until this.  :mad:
If you want to keep trolling for sympathy, there's not a darn thing I can do about that.  You might find some.
But please don't take shots at me.  You don't know me.  I know you don't, because I've never told you.
Your assumptions aren't only foolish, they are wrong.
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kgbsquirrel

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Re: Montana moves to repeal medical marijuana laws
« Reply #130 on: February 18, 2011, 11:34:12 PM »
Would someone, anyone, please answer for me exactly how such self-policing is supposed to occur? In a nation where the protection of the unpopular opinion reigns supreme (damn, there's that pesky Constitution again, and that's the first amendment in case any of you didn't recognize it on account of my referring to the unpopular thought or idea) exactly how are you supposed to shut up the abusers of the MM system without breaking the law yourself? Short of going around with a silenced Ruger Mk-III and putting two in the head, one in the throat, of every Jason Christ you find it's going to be pretty damned impossible to prevent them from spreading, or acting on, their own ideas and opinions.

Tuco

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Re: Montana moves to repeal medical marijuana laws
« Reply #131 on: February 18, 2011, 11:55:01 PM »
I used to walk my dog in a city park.  We have a pooper scooper law.  When my dog pooped, I cleaned it up.  When I saw someone's dog poop, I suggested to them if they didn't clean it up, the park may be closed to dogs.  When I saw other dog's poop on the path, I'd kick it into the brush.

Nobody told me to do this, or how it might work.  I had to come up with it on my own, because having this park to walk my dog was important to me.
Where there is a will, there is a way.  Creativity can be summoned by need.

Never did I consider shooting anyone or advocating any illegal or unconstitutional acts.
It was important, I kept my side of the street clean.  There was nothing I could do to make you clean up your dog's poop.
(Uh oh, here comes PTK to accuse me of accusing his dog of pooping on my lawn ;/)

I never asked anyone who didn't take a dog to the park to clean up dog poop.  That'd be absurd.
It's my job to do everything reasonable I can think of to keep things in order.  I am responsible to see that the little kid with his grandpa didn't have to scrape dog poop off their shoes.  I am responsible to determine what's reasonable.

If I chose to walk my dog in that park after it's closed due to excessive dog poop, I'll keep scooping poop, and in my mind, will know that I am doing the right thing, and those bastards who don't clean up their dog poop are still bastards.


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AmbulanceDriver

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Re: Montana moves to repeal medical marijuana laws
« Reply #132 on: February 18, 2011, 11:57:50 PM »
kgb, that's a bit disingenuous.  I don't think anyone is proposing going out and executing all the Jason Christ types out there.  

Rather, how about something like this:

When my wife and I were house shopping, we went to an open house.  Turns out this house was being sold by a MM card holder here in Oregon.  This guy was growing roughly double what the MM laws in Oregon allowed, and it was pretty apparent that he was selling on the illegal market.  Additionally his son was manufacturing bongs and pipes and other drug paraphernalia, which was not legal under Oregon's MM law.  

Did I go get a throw-away gun and come back and kill the guy?  Hell no.  And I really don't think that anyone in here would agree that this is the right thing to do.  

What we did do, is drive about three blocks, pull out the cell phone, and call the local sheriff.  A while later, we happened to see in the news that there was a drug bust there, and turns out they were growing *significantly* more than what we even saw, significantly more than double the legal amount.  

Maybe if someone had dropped the dime on Jason Christ when he first started abusing MT's MM system, lawmakers now wouldn't be considering a full repeal of their MM laws.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2011, 12:15:32 AM by AmbulanceDriver »
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Montana moves to repeal medical marijuana laws
« Reply #133 on: February 19, 2011, 12:14:01 AM »
uncool man...
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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AmbulanceDriver

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Re: Montana moves to repeal medical marijuana laws
« Reply #134 on: February 19, 2011, 12:26:00 AM »
CSD.  Yep, it was uncool.  Harshed his groove, even.  But here's the problem.  He was abusing the system, and doing it for personal gain.  Were he following the law, I wouldn't have given a rat's ass.  But it was obvious that he wasn't.

You know, I don't agree with the GCA and most of the firearms laws on the books.  But if I were to run into some guy selling guns to the local gangbangers out of the trunk of his car, I'd drop a dime on him too. 
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Montana moves to repeal medical marijuana laws
« Reply #135 on: February 19, 2011, 12:38:51 AM »
me too  i've been diagnosed uncool
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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kgbsquirrel

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Re: Montana moves to repeal medical marijuana laws
« Reply #136 on: February 19, 2011, 02:02:21 AM »
I used to walk my dog in a city park.  We have a pooper scooper law.  When my dog pooped, I cleaned it up.  When I saw someone's dog poop, I suggested to them if they didn't clean it up, the park may be closed to dogs.  When I saw other dog's poop on the path, I'd kick it into the brush.

Nobody told me to do this, or how it might work.  I had to come up with it on my own, because having this park to walk my dog was important to me.
Where there is a will, there is a way.  Creativity can be summoned by need.

Never did I consider shooting anyone or advocating any illegal or unconstitutional acts.
It was important, I kept my side of the street clean.  There was nothing I could do to make you clean up your dog's poop.
(Uh oh, here comes PTK to accuse me of accusing his dog of pooping on my lawn ;/)

I never asked anyone who didn't take a dog to the park to clean up dog poop.  That'd be absurd.
It's my job to do everything reasonable I can think of to keep things in order.  I am responsible to see that the little kid with his grandpa didn't have to scrape dog poop off their shoes.  I am responsible to determine what's reasonable.

If I chose to walk my dog in that park after it's closed due to excessive dog poop, I'll keep scooping poop, and in my mind, will know that I am doing the right thing, and those bastards who don't clean up their dog poop are still bastards.

That's quite a bit of text about dog droppings without ever actually giving any idea as to how the legitimate MM users should be self-policing the abusers of the system.


kgb, that's a bit disingenuous.  I don't think anyone is proposing going out and executing all the Jason Christ types out there.  

Rather, how about something like this:

When my wife and I were house shopping, we went to an open house.  Turns out this house was being sold by a MM card holder here in Oregon.  This guy was growing roughly double what the MM laws in Oregon allowed, and it was pretty apparent that he was selling on the illegal market.  Additionally his son was manufacturing bongs and pipes and other drug paraphernalia, which was not legal under Oregon's MM law.  

Did I go get a throw-away gun and come back and kill the guy?  Hell no.  And I really don't think that anyone in here would agree that this is the right thing to do.  

What we did do, is drive about three blocks, pull out the cell phone, and call the local sheriff.  A while later, we happened to see in the news that there was a drug bust there, and turns out they were growing *significantly* more than what we even saw, significantly more than double the legal amount.  

Maybe if someone had dropped the dime on Jason Christ when he first started abusing MT's MM system, lawmakers now wouldn't be considering a full repeal of their MM laws.

So the legitimate users should notify the police whenever they observe someone doing an illegal act, but with noted regard especially toward abusers of the MM system. That is a worthwhile reminder and a rather common sense expectation... Do you have any evidence that they do not? As I understand it criminals do actually make some effort to conceal their activities in order to preclude intervention of law enforcement, and in the case of Jason Christ, it was only after the police executed a search warrant on his office that actual evidence, and not mere speculation, of his illicit actions was brought to light. Such warrants I should note are something which the common legitimate MM user can not simply produce at will should they suspect someone to be abusing the system, and yet your argument still holds forth the proposition that the legitimate users are somehow responsible for the abusers actions after the fact.

So whose argument is more disingenuous here? Mine, which asserts that in a free society governed by constitutional protections and restraints you can not silence the unpopular minority without resorting to illegal actions, or yours, which asserts that legitimate users of a particular system are to be held responsible for the actions of criminals, and the negative public impression created by the criminals' actions, regardless of whether they had knowledge or legally obtainable evidence to such, an argument I should note that completely contravenes the concept of personal responsibility of one's actions.


uncool man...

From a person who intentionally ignores direct questions to the deficiencies of his own arguments this means nothing.


CSD.  Yep, it was uncool.  Harshed his groove, even.
....

That others are unable to cope with a statement designed to be sufficiently direct and abrupt enough to successfully grab their attention and shock them out of their illegitimately founded prosecutorial arguments against personal responsibility is not a failure on my part.

freakazoid

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Re: Montana moves to repeal medical marijuana laws
« Reply #137 on: February 19, 2011, 02:20:29 AM »
Quote
I used to walk my dog in a city park.

Where are wild animals supposed to poop without a human behind them to pick it up?

Quote
I have said repeatedly in this thread that I believe weed should not be illegal, but it should be regulated.

And this is any better how? Both restrict freedoms that should not be restricted. Might as well regulate firearms too. At least with firearms they can actually do bodily harm.

Quote
Maybe if someone had dropped the dime on Jason Christ when he first started abusing MT's MM system, lawmakers now wouldn't be considering a full repeal of their MM laws.

I don't understand, has this Jason Christ fella been going around doing evil things?
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41magsnub

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Re: Montana moves to repeal medical marijuana laws
« Reply #138 on: February 19, 2011, 08:42:45 AM »
Check out the links on Jason Christ on the first page.  He is doing something illegal and against the intent of the current law (pre-signed Dr auth forms that he used to get folks authorized that even his sham Dr's that did teleconferences with patients would not approve).  He was busted for it.  He then goes for an in your face sort of lobbying in Helena and smokes more weed than Cheech and Chong.  Then there are the threats and the bomb threat deal...  Folks have been calling him out, repeatedly and loudly, in the state.  The Missoula paper has a particular hate going for him because outside of MM he screwed over several local businesses badly.  He gets shouted down at every opportunity.

Unfortunately, what happens is this guy and everyone else who abuses the system get all the press time since it sells more papers.  Then lawmakers, that we all know never jump to conclusions or work in absolutes when they are not appropriate  ;), decide that they will try to shut the whole works down instead of better forming the law.  There are a lot of reasonable folks arguing for MM in MT but it is kind of like why you hear about Lindsay Lohan and Charlie Sheen in the news all the time, but not about the other celebrities who have their lives in order.

Tuco

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Re: Montana moves to repeal medical marijuana laws
« Reply #139 on: February 19, 2011, 11:31:05 AM »
That's quite a bit of text about dog droppings without ever actually giving any idea as to how the legitimate MM users should be self-policing the abusers of the system.

Figuring out "how" is the job of the MM community.  
The dog poop was "AN EXAMPLE" or, for the more advanced thinkers here, "A METAPHOR" showing how individual responsibility and motivation can be used to defeat those who try to usurp liberty.

One man's mayjanes is another man's dogpoop.

So the legitimate users should notify the police whenever they observe someone doing an illegal act, but with noted regard especially toward abusers of the MM system. That is a worthwhile reminder and a rather common sense expectation... Do you have any evidence that they do not?
Yes.  
Have you been sleeping or are you just stoned?
 :P

So whose argument is more disingenuous here? Mine, which asserts that in a free society governed by constitutional protections and restraints you can not silence the unpopular minority without resorting to illegal actions, or yours, which asserts that legitimate users of a particular system are to be held responsible for the actions of criminals, and the negative public impression created by the criminals' actions, regardless of whether they had knowledge or legally obtainable evidence to such, an argument I should note that completely contravenes the concept of personal responsibility of one's actions.
Your argument is more disingenuous, absolutely.
You try to ignore the fact that MM liberties are being and will be further denied, because of the crowd who will not follow the laws.

Sorry, I'm not going to play "If" or "Yea But".
The MM movement has been compromised and will be further damaged by illegal pot smokers who are exploiting the system.
Is that "Right"?  Is that "Constitutional"?
NO.  IT'S NOT RIGHT NOR IS IT CONSTITUTIONAL.  
However, it is happening, and it's not my job to fix that.  
It is a special interest of which I want NO involvement.
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Tallpine

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Re: Montana moves to repeal medical marijuana laws
« Reply #140 on: February 19, 2011, 11:41:41 AM »
So let me get this straight ... if you want to repeal what you believe to be an unnecessary and immoral law, you must first do everything in your power to make sure that law is enforced to the fullest extent against the largest number of people possible  ???
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PTK

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Re: Montana moves to repeal medical marijuana laws
« Reply #141 on: February 19, 2011, 11:49:28 AM »
That's what I get from reading up on all the recent posts, too. Here I was, thinking it was absurd to have that sort of thought coming from a group that hates all gun laws and loathes enforcement of them when they are being enforced in a malum prohibitum sense, as is the case with their argument. Odd. =|
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kgbsquirrel

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Re: Montana moves to repeal medical marijuana laws
« Reply #142 on: February 19, 2011, 11:57:59 AM »
No, the gist of their argument I was getting is that the law abiding group of citizens using the MM program are somehow responsible for the actions of criminals and the resulting harsher laws while the people forwarding this argument are somehow isolated and not in any way themselves responsible for this whole mess with the singular exception of the duty to place blame from on high.

PTK

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Re: Montana moves to repeal medical marijuana laws
« Reply #143 on: February 19, 2011, 12:03:48 PM »
I'm going to be honest, I pictured your grumpy/angry face reading that. :D
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kgbsquirrel

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Re: Montana moves to repeal medical marijuana laws
« Reply #144 on: February 19, 2011, 12:07:25 PM »
I'm going to be honest, I pictured your grumpy/angry face reading that. :D

You mean the Shooting-The-Broomhandle face? Yeah, that would be accurate.

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Montana moves to repeal medical marijuana laws
« Reply #145 on: February 19, 2011, 11:11:26 PM »
the gist of their argument I was getting is that the law abiding group of citizens using the MM program are somehow responsible for the actions of criminals and the resulting harsher laws while the people forwarding this argument are somehow isolated and not in any way themselves responsible for this whole mess with the singular exception of the duty to place blame from on high.

you are missing the gist  the law abiding group is responsible for their own inaction if and when they were aware of what crist was doing.  if  i had been aware and done nothin i would be responsible.  the adolescent styling of the "its not my fault dad!" argument is a bit disingenuous as is the "i didn't know!" nonsense.  in light of the presigned doc notes and the skype diagnosis scam .  is it your position that crist was fooling folks?  man that IS some good smoke
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Montana moves to repeal medical marijuana laws
« Reply #146 on: February 20, 2011, 12:11:41 AM »
shoot even norml is opposed to pot for adolescents and yet when we look to "the movement" and its toubles what do we see? the cool people draw the young crowd.
old saying goes  "if you are gonna play the game... learn to wear the name"
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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Perd Hapley

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Re: Montana moves to repeal medical marijuana laws
« Reply #147 on: February 20, 2011, 01:30:32 AM »
shoot even norml is opposed to pot for adolescents

Fascists.
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MicroBalrog

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Re: Montana moves to repeal medical marijuana laws
« Reply #148 on: February 20, 2011, 01:53:24 AM »
Fascists.

Remember, anybody younger than 18 is an unperson.
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41magsnub

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Re: Montana moves to repeal medical marijuana laws
« Reply #149 on: March 07, 2011, 08:30:38 PM »
Zombie bump!

Here is a group hitting this from the right angle:

I was good buddy's in high school with the interviewee but we haven't talked in years.

http://www.krtv.com/news/medical-marijuana-in-montana-repeal-reform-or-leave-in-place-/