Author Topic: theological philosophy  (Read 37890 times)

Strings

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« Reply #125 on: October 02, 2005, 12:16:44 PM »
that's just it, Rabbi: we're not talking the acts themselves, but the very CONCEPT of "evil". Let's put it in medical terms: the acts would be symptoms, while "evil" would be the disease. Does that make it easier?

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« Reply #126 on: October 02, 2005, 01:11:06 PM »
Quote from: Hunter Rose
that's just it, Rabbi: we're not talking the acts themselves, but the very CONCEPT of "evil". Let's put it in medical terms: the acts would be symptoms, while "evil" would be the disease. Does that make it easier?
Are you asking why people do things that are bad and hurtful?  Or are you asking where the category comes from of "bad and evil, i.e. evil" ?
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Moondoggie

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« Reply #127 on: October 02, 2005, 01:58:10 PM »
Oops!  

Wrong thread.
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Strings

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« Reply #128 on: October 02, 2005, 02:58:34 PM »
the question, Rabbi, is simple (which, of course, makes it incredibly complex). If we take the Judeo/Christian viewpoint ("God created everything), then where did evil come from? Especially if you take the viewpoint that God is absolutely holy (which would mean incapable of evil)...

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« Reply #129 on: October 02, 2005, 04:28:58 PM »
Evil is a result of human action, which stems from free will.  I dont see it as all so complicated.
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Perd Hapley

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« Reply #130 on: October 02, 2005, 06:37:55 PM »
I think Stand_watie had a good handle on this one.

Quote
God did not create everything, he created everything that was created. God did not create himself, he has always existed, and evil has always existed. Evil is everything that does not conform to the attributes of God, and for God to have attributes, there have to be things outside of those attributes.
Does a concept really need to be created, or does it neccessarily exist?  Because God created the potential for evil, does that mean that He created it?

Along Rabbi's line of argument, one can make a weapon without creating the murder that might be committed with it.  But God is an omniscient, omnipotent creator, so surely he could have created a perfect world - or could he?


To quote a wise man named fistful:

Quote
The question is, could God have created beings capable of love, reason, intelligence, consciousness, etc., but with no chance of doing evil?  I don't believe so.  Many Christians have reasoned that God is capable of creating perfect beings, but that such would only be automatons, pre-programmed to "love" their creator.  A Stepford humanity, if you will.
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Stand_watie

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« Reply #131 on: October 02, 2005, 06:50:27 PM »
I wouold say that God's perfect world would have the possibility of evil to be there without the actual commission of evil.... in other words the garden of eden before adam sinned...
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stevelyn

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« Reply #132 on: October 02, 2005, 07:42:07 PM »
Quote
And those little people came from where?
A galaxy far, far away?

My take on religion is that it's used to take the up slack on controlling people where brute force leaves off. To call it a fraud would be accurate. However, if you have to believe in an invisible man to get through life, I'm not going to try and convince you otherwise. Just don't try and use your beliefs as justification for what I should or shouldn't do.
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Perd Hapley

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« Reply #133 on: October 02, 2005, 08:07:06 PM »
Quote from: stevelyn
Quote
And those little people came from where?
A galaxy far, far away?

My take on religion is that it's used to take the up slack on controlling people where brute force leaves off. To call it a fraud would be accurate. However, if you have to believe in an invisible man to get through life, I'm not going to try and convince you otherwise. Just don't try and use your beliefs as justification for what I should or shouldn't do.
Your religious background was a bit too controlling, perhaps?  Don't use your beliefs, steve, to tell me what I should or should not do.  Interesting how we always need to believe in some version of morality.  

Your position is that ALL religions are false?  Can you point out the fundamental flaws of some religions?

My point about the little green men was that they would need to be created also, meaning this argument regresses infinitely.
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Perd Hapley

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« Reply #134 on: October 02, 2005, 09:08:37 PM »
Quote from: Hunter Rose
We have divinity seeing things at @ year 0 as being somewhat stagnant: mankind seems to be in something of a rut, and a new pardigm is needed. So: he embodies one mortal with his essence, and sets him on Earth.  This being is the son of a carpenter in the Middle East...

He lives out his life, attempting to teach a new philosophical idea to mankind. As with most new ideas, he's vilified for the attempt, eventually being executed. But his ideas take hold, giving mankind a new concept to carry itself forward in life...

Thus, you have the birth of Christianity, yet still retain the concept of all religions having validity. Christianity is just a new way for mankind to connect to Divinity: mainly for those who feel the need to have "one set way"...
Quote from: fistful
I suppose his next idea was to give a revelation to Muhammed, so that he could declare all Christians and Jews as enemies, or at least infidels, and then lead a bunch of Arab tribes on the warpath.  Hadn't he tried that already with the twelve tribes of Israel?  Similar outline: divine revelation, followed by military conquest of heathen territory (Christian and Pagan territory, with Jews intermixed).
Quote from: Hunter Rose
*sigh*

Try reading the Koran before generalizing that way.
HR,

I think I wrote a response to this, but just didn't post it.  So, here I go again.

I'm not sure where I'm generalizing there.  Was my analysis simplistic?  Yes, but your analysis of Christianity was also simplistic.  What we have both done is pull out the parts of these religions that seem relevant to us, and then ignore the rest of that religion.  The difference is that you have said things about Christianity that simply don't square with the teachings or beliefs thereof.  The things I said about Islam and its doctrines and history are true, so far as I know.  I have not read the entire Koran, although I hope to get to that someday.  As it is, I have only read through the whole Bible once, and am working on the second iteration.  I have two English translations of the Koran, and it does indeed declare non-Muslims as non-believers (infidels) and command that Jews be treated as enemies.  I am not sure how it serves God's purpose to bestow on us religions that directly, sometimes violently, oppose one another.  You claim that Islam is being twisted by the Islamists, but I think this is debatable, and they may be more true to their religion than the moderates.  Again, I am only going on my limited knowledge, and have not made up my mind on this.  To the best of my knowledge, it is also a fact that Mohammed led a military conquest of Mecca and other infidel areas, and that his followers went on to conquer much of the territory, such as North Africa, that was overwhelmingly Christian.  Why would God set up this conflict?
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Perd Hapley

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« Reply #135 on: October 02, 2005, 09:10:34 PM »
I think the biggest problem with your ideas in post #40 is that the Divine you describe doesn't seem to care all that much about us.  He created this world and its people.  Didn't he know that our world could get in this mess?  Yet his answer is to come along and give us a new religion every so often, or to let us stumble around making up our own?  

The Christian God is not like this.  He tells us about Himself.  He suffers for us, and had planned to from the very beginning.  The Bible calls Christ "the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world" and "the lamb that was slain [for our salvation] from the foundations of the world" (brackets mine).  And He provides justice; punishment for those who hurt us, but forgiveness for both parties if they seek it.

Quote from: fistful
What I find interesting about all of the religions addressed above, is their lack of documentary, archeological and historical corroboration, compared to Biblical Christianity.  In other words, I don't know what assurance anyone has that these other faiths are the real deal.




Quote from: Hunter Rose
WAY too many people are caught up in the conceit of "one true way"
And WAY too many people are caught up in the conceit of pretended humility and false open-mindedness.  I would like to know what is conceited about the belief that God revealed Himself and His way to salvation through one set of writings, one tradition, one religion.
There is a question in each of my paragraphs, and I am very interested in your answer, if you please.  

OK, it's late, time for bed.
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Strings

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« Reply #136 on: October 02, 2005, 10:44:43 PM »
*sigh*

Start a thread asking people for philosophy behind their chosen faith, and end up with proslytization...

>What I find interesting about all of the religions addressed above, is their lack of documentary, archeological and historical corroboration, compared to Biblical Christianity.  In other words, I don't know what assurance anyone has that these other faiths are the real deal.<

Heh... you have archeological finds that are suggestive of biblical history. Unfortunately, much of what is found is open to interpretation, and there is a bias on the part of many researchers. Kinda like using info from the NRA or HCI when arguing about gun control, any such info will be somewhat tainted. We need the archeological equivalent of the FBI's Uniform Crime Reports...


>And WAY too many people are caught up in the conceit of pretended humility and false open-mindedness.  I would like to know what is conceited about the belief that God revealed Himself and His way to salvation through one set of writings, one tradition, one religion.<

 What's conceited is the insistance on the right to preach your gospel to people who disagree, and to use your gospel as proof of itself. Not saying you've been doing that yourself, but it IS a general trend among most Christians I have these discussions with (and worse among those I just meet on the street).

 A very common exchange on "biblical truth" goes something like this:

Christian:"The Bible is absolute truth!"
Non Christian: "Where's the proof of that?"
Christian:"In the Bible, of course!"

 Or how about the conceit that YOU understand the totality of the Divine, and those who follow a different path are wrong?

And what's with "pretend humility and false open-mindedness"? You REALLY need to back that one up, Fistful: comes across as an accusation...

Strings

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« Reply #137 on: October 02, 2005, 10:51:14 PM »
>Evil is a result of human action, which stems from free will.  I dont see it as all so complicated.<

If God created everything, then he also created free will. Meaning he defined it as a concept, meaning it was whatever he wanted. Therefor, if free will is what gives us the capability of evil, then God created evil...

>God did not create everything, he created everything that was created. God did not create himself, he has always existed, and evil has always existed. Evil is everything that does not conform to the attributes of God, and for God to have attributes, there have to be things outside of those attributes.<

If evil is just as old as God, then evil must be fairly close to God in terms of strength. ESPECIALLY if you take the stance that Evil is God's opposite (of course, that might work as more of a Wiccan view: balance, and everything)

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« Reply #138 on: October 02, 2005, 11:26:55 PM »
Quote from: Hunter Rose
>Evil is a result of human action, which stems from free will.  I dont see it as all so complicated.<

If God created everything, then he also created free will. Meaning he defined it as a concept, meaning it was whatever he wanted. Therefor, if free will is what gives us the capability of evil, then God created evil...
Huh?  If I create a firearm and then someone goes and uses that in a crime, have I created that crime?  No, I dont think so.  I might have created a means for the crime or the potential for it, but it was the means for a lot of other stuff as well.
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telewinz

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« Reply #139 on: October 03, 2005, 12:44:15 AM »
The Bible was written my man, the books (hundreds were in fact written) of the modern day Bible were chosen by man, man was supposedly inspired by God to perform both these tasks,  man is supposedly inspired by God to join the clergy, some members of this same "inspired" clergy molest children....enough said.

How is it "free will" if you will be tortured for eternity for making the wrong choice?  Doesn't sound free to me.  Does that mean my car is "free" as long as I make the $350 payment at the end of the month?  We have been conditioned since Sunday School NOT to ask the "hardball" questions, it's not "polite".

Could it be that "Hell" and Heaven were invented by man to cope with the inadequacies of our justice and social systems through-out history?  "I can't punish or reward you or know everything you do but GOD does".  

When it come to right and wrong is it God you fear or the police and the video camera at the intersection and the 7-11 store?  That "old time religion" is rapidly losing favor and becoming obsolete, check organized Christian church attendance trends.  200 years ago church attendance was pretty much mandatory (to keep your job), whats changed? A lack of churches? A declining population?  Education levels?  A redefining of the words "devout" Christian?  

Does anyone really worship an intangible deity or do we just use his name like the "Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval"?  Maybe some use God's name (and the Bible) to justify what they wanted to do and were going to do anyway.  How many marriages were blessed by God but 10 years later (or sooner) end in divorce?  Go figure.

"could God have created beings capable of love, reason, intelligence, consciousness, etc., but with no chance of doing evil?  I don't believe so.  Many Christians have reasoned that God is capable of creating perfect beings, but that such would only be automatons, pre-programmed to "love" their creator.  A Stepford humanity, if you will."   Whats the purpose (goal?) of man's laws and society?  Where God failed, man is succeeding (however slowly).
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« Reply #140 on: October 03, 2005, 04:01:35 AM »
Quote
The Bible was written my man, the books (hundreds were in fact written) of the modern day Bible were chosen by man, man was supposedly inspired by God to perform both these tasks,  man is supposedly inspired by God to join the clergy, some members of this same "inspired" clergy molest children....enough said.
Stunning is all I can say.
First, I dispute that man wrote all the books of the Bible.
Second, based on your analogy gun ownership is bad.  Some gun owners misuse their firearms so....enough said.
Third, these are not "hardball" questions.  These are illogical rants based on misunderstandings and misinformation.
Church membership declining?  Not where I live.  Check the fastest growing denominations and across the board they are the most "fundamentalist" or right leaning ones.
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« Reply #141 on: October 03, 2005, 06:45:21 AM »
>Huh?  If I create a firearm and then someone goes and uses that in a crime, have I created that crime?  No, I dont think so.  I might have created a means for the crime or the potential for it, but it was the means for a lot of other stuff as well.<

Ok... so free will is just a tool? What purpose does it serve? What was it designed to do?

 Hammers were designed to hit things. Knives were designed to cut things. Guns were designed to throw small pieces of lead at high velocity in a relatively straight trajectory. And yes, we've turned every one of those into a way of hurting our fellow man. So... what purpose does free will serve?

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« Reply #142 on: October 03, 2005, 06:46:25 AM »
Quote
If evil is just as old as God, then evil must be fairly close to God in terms of strength. ESPECIALLY if you take the stance that Evil is God's opposite (of course, that might work as more of a Wiccan view: balance, and everything)
You're anthropomorphizing (Godopomorphizing if that is a word) evil.

Evil is that which doesn't conform to the attributes of God. Not a villianous intelligent force (although there are plenty of those who happen to be evil), just not God. Not perfect, not holy, not just, not love. not omnicient nor omnipresent.

That which is not an elephant is neither more or less powerful than an elephant, it's just not an elephant.
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« Reply #143 on: October 03, 2005, 06:54:46 AM »
Quote from: Hunter Rose
>Huh?  If I create a firearm and then someone goes and uses that in a crime, have I created that crime?  No, I dont think so.  I might have created a means for the crime or the potential for it, but it was the means for a lot of other stuff as well.<

Ok... so free will is just a tool? What purpose does it serve? What was it designed to do?

 Hammers were designed to hit things. Knives were designed to cut things. Guns were designed to throw small pieces of lead at high velocity in a relatively straight trajectory. And yes, we've turned every one of those into a way of hurting our fellow man. So... what purpose does free will serve?
To give reward to those who make the right choices.
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Strings

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« Reply #144 on: October 03, 2005, 06:56:02 AM »
>First, I dispute that man wrote all the books of the Bible.<

Ummm... here, we might have a problem. Are we referin' to YOUR book, or the Christian version? I wouldn't bother arguing yours one way or t'other (and I can't remember the proper term for said book now). If you want to discuss the New Testament of the Christian Bible though...

 Reminds me: anyone here ever see the "Politically Correct Bible"? Not a joke, one was published...

>Second, based on your analogy gun ownership is bad.  Some gun owners misuse their firearms so....enough said.<

I gotta go with Rabbi here, but with one cavet: many people think of priests as having a vocation, being "called by God". Don't recall the last time such was mentioned about gun owners...

>Third, these are not "hardball" questions.  These are illogical rants based on misunderstandings and misinformation.<

Why is it, Rabbi, anyone who disagrees with you about "the One True God" is illogical? Telewinz explains why he feels the way he does about religion, and you declare it illogical. Wow. So... 9 or 45...

Stand_watie

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« Reply #145 on: October 03, 2005, 06:56:39 AM »
Quote
Hammers were designed to hit things. Knives were designed to cut things. Guns were designed to throw small pieces of lead at high velocity in a relatively straight trajectory. And yes, we've turned every one of those into a way of hurting our fellow man. So... what purpose does free will serve?
It separates the orders of beings. Mountains and oceans don't have free will, and neither do the animals (in the moral sense). Humans and Angels do. Apparently God wanted more than inanimate objects and animals.
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Strings

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« Reply #146 on: October 03, 2005, 06:58:24 AM »
>To give reward to those who make the right choices.<

Ok... and what form is that reward going to take? What are the "right choices"?

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« Reply #147 on: October 03, 2005, 07:00:21 AM »
>It separates the orders of beings. Mountains and oceans don't have free will, and neither do the animals (in the moral sense). Humans and Angels do. Apparently God wanted more than inanimate objects and animals.<

actually, you could argue that animals DO have free will. Ever watched a REALLY good animals trainer with their critters?

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« Reply #148 on: October 03, 2005, 07:03:35 AM »
Hunter Rose, the Christian Bible explicitly was written by human beings.  I dont think there is debate over that.  But the first 5 books of the Bible were composed by G-d.  The rest were composed by prophets.
You disagree with me and I havent called anything you've written illogical or a rant.

SW, what is your source for angels having free will?  To us that is not so, free will is limited to human beings, for reasons mentioned above.
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« Reply #149 on: October 03, 2005, 07:09:52 AM »
I guess Ill take a crack at posting my beliefs:

I am Jewish and believe in G-d, the Torah and the dialogue between G-d and humans evidenced in the oral law and on-going interpretations of the Torah.  I attend Reconstructionist services but I dont agree with all that Reconstructionism teaches.  I believe G-d loves us and has given us the power to make choices.  Humans are good by nature but are tempted by evil impulses.  The existence of evil gives people something to fight against and makes the triumph over evil impulses more precious, bringing us closer to the Divine.  I am not sure of the origin of evil  whether G-d is omnipotent and created evil for some purpose that is beyond our understanding or if G-d does not sanction/create evil but is limited in His/Her power as some rabbis have suggested.  For me, what is more important than the origin of evil is how we respond to it.

One of the things that struck me about last weeks Torah portion (we read totally through the Torah every year, reading fixed portions at the same time every year) was that Moses emphasizes that people do go astray, but they are all capable of turning themselves around and being forgiven by G-d, choosing life over death.  He states that this is not some unattainable ideal or teaching but very close to you, in your mouth and in your heart, to observe it. (Devarim 30:14, JPS)  I may not be able to control things that happen to me but I can control my actions and follow G-d as best as I can (choosing life).  I personally find that very empowering.

As humans, we have a covenant with G-d and we are partners with G-d.  Our part of the deal is that we must do our part to help our fellow humans and make this world a better place with the limited time we are given on earth (this is called tikkum olam, repairing the world).  We are required to give tzedakah, which is usually translated as charity but it actually comes from the Hebrew word for justice.  It is our obligation to make sure that others have the opportunity to have an education, medical care and food to sustain them.  G-d expects us to take care of each other and work for justice in the world.  We are also required to pray, study and contemplate the words of the Torah and figure out how they apply to our lives.  

No one is really sure what happens after we die but the most important thing is what we do when we are alive.  I think there is a world-to-come for the righteous but the details arent knowable.  Conversely, G-d is loving and would not torture someone eternally in what people call Hell.  This is not to say that G-d does not mete out punishment for the truly evil but that punishment would more likely come in the form of finite punishment or the destruction of the soul after death.  We take care of what we can externally through systems of justice and G-d will take care of the rest.

Proselytizing is not necessary because the Jewish tradition teaches that you dont have to convert to Judaism to be a righteous person.  There are basic laws that everyone should follow (see the Noachide Laws) like not committing murder, not stealing and setting up courts to mete out justice and these laws set a baseline for everyone that most can follow without abandoning the religion they were born into.  I agree with what Rabbi Israel Salanter said, Think about your fellows body and your own soul, and not the reverse.  

What I really like about Judaism is the love of life, commitment to social justice and wonderful holidays and traditions.  I also like that, as a people, we Jews have so many different opinions on everything.  If youve ever heard the saying Two Jews, three opinions its true!  Weve even got minority opinions written into the Talmud.  Questioning is part of studying and I love that.  It does make it a little difficult to explain what Jews believe to the curious non-Jew (Well, Shammai said this and Hillel disagreed and said this&) but I like the give and take of arguing over what Jewish law says on this or that, what the nature of G-d is, etc.  

Well, I should go - I have some work I have to finish before Rosh Hashanah begins.  Best wishes to all for a happy and sweet new year!

Edited to add link about Noachide Laws.