9-9-9 : The APS debate

[longeyes]

Cain's plan may not be perfect but it's something.  The thing about Cain is that he has the moral authority and credibility to advance a constructive plan and is not afraid to say tough things.  Our economic revival will be built not just on econometrics but upon a new (yet old) moral perspective that rewards the right things.

[Jamisjockey]

On this logic any form of government activity that benefits people who don't pay income taxes is a form of welfare.

Because it is.  It's either economic or social welfare, but its still welfare.  
Take for instance, cash for clunkers.  That would be economic welfare.  A benefit to the auto industry paid out by all taxpayers.  And there was no requirement to be a taxpayer to recieve the cash for clunker deal.  Subsidies are welfare.  

Tell me, why should economic dead zones like Detroit be saved? Why should I subsidize the salvation of Detroit? 
What value do I derive from the salvation of Detroit?

Cain's plan may not be perfect but it's something.  The thing about Cain is that he has the moral authority and credibility to advance a constructive plan and is not afraid to say tough things.  Our economic revival will be built not just on econometrics but upon a new (yet old) moral perspective that rewards the right things.

His modification to the 9-9-9 is pandering, benefits to the few at the cost of the many, and it calls into question his credibility.

[longeyes]

You may be right, but enterprise zones, with GOP backing, aren't exactly new.  Let's face it, any Republican who wins the next election is going to face a staggering challenge.  He will alienate as many as he inspires.  We're going to need someone, whoever it is, with a firm vision and a strong will.

[seeker_two]

Actually, yes.  They receive benefits from the system without paying into the system.  That IS giving them taxpayer money.

Not sure what you mean....by not using Fed personnel to collect taxes or enforce regulations, you actually save money while increasing that areas chances for economic success. It may end up showing the rest of the USA that it's a sound idea and people will demand the same everywhere....

[lupinus]

I'd also like to point out that while the particulars were still being put together and not yet released, they've been a part of the plan. If not from it's inception then pretty darn near it.

[Jamisjockey]

Not sure what you mean....by not using Fed personnel to collect taxes or enforce regulations, you actually save money while increasing that areas chances for economic success. It may end up showing the rest of the USA that it's a sound idea and people will demand the same everywhere....

It artificially inflates the value of an area at the cost to others who do pay those taxes.  No different than subsidizing electric cars or ethanol. 
And most cities weren't run down by the federal government, but by state and local governments, and some with the assistance of the unions.  Detroit is the prime example, the Unions over inflated the price of labor for the auto industry and killed it.  Any company coming there to build an industry would get socked with artificially inflated labor costs thanks to the unions.

[MicroBalrog]

A tax exemption is not a subsidy.

[Jamisjockey]

A tax exemption is not a subsidy.

Indirectly, it is. 
Person A and Person B are neighbors, they make exactly the same amount of money and pay exactly the same taxes.
A owns a house and recieves a mortgage interest deduction.  B does not own, and instead rents.  Therefore, person B is paying higher taxes to subsidize person A's home ownership.

[MechAg94]

I like that he has a plan for changing the tax code and since he has some support, it is forcing the other candidates to come up with their own plans.

I would really rather see a flat income tax.  If you need to transition to a sales tax later, do it all at once and completely get rid of the income tax at the same time.  Avoid having sales tax and income tax together.

[HankB]

Honestly, we need to support our allies and encourage them to be able to defend themselves. Our bases in Japan, Korea, and Germany have to do with the threats from China, North Korea, and Russia.

South Korea Population:  ~49,000,000      GDP:  $1,244,000,000,000
North Korea Population:   ~24,000,000      GDP:      $28,200,000,000

With twice the population and 44x the economy, South Korea can darned well afford to deal with the Norks. (We'll backstop them against the Chicoms.)

[slingshot]

I like the concept of the 9-9-9 plan as I understand it.  IF the 9% business tax effectively adds 9% to the cost of goods and services because of the sales or consumption tax 9% at each production phase such as a value added tax (VAT), I am totally against the whole concept.  More information is needed before I can support the whole concept, but I lean toward supporting it because it simplifies the tax structure and puts everyone on more or less equal footing.

I don't know about you all, but the increasing standard deduction has effectively eliminated itemizing for me.  I rough out things and it seldom pays to itemize and provide all that detail on annual returns.

[MechAg94]

Cain was interviewed on Houston radio this week as he was in town.  He said it was definitely NOT a VAT tax.  It was solely on the retail sale.  His idea is that it plus the reduced corporate income tax and payroll taxes should reduce the overall tax burder of each level of production and distribution upstream of the retail level so the overall cost of goods in general should be reduced more than the 9% tax.  I guess that is a typical Fair Tax argument.

The interview was short, but he sounded very good to me.  I like his stances on most of the issues I have heard him speak on.  Some Republicans might not like his stance on abortion, but I have no issue with it.  I didn't pay much attention to Cain early on because I didn't think he was going anywhere, but I had a positive view of him.  As he has increased his following and had the spotlight put on him, he has continued to impress me.  We'll see how he tows the line the next two months before the January Primaries.

[slingshot]

He said it was definitely NOT a VAT tax.

That's what is "said".  But if a company buys its lumber from a lumber mill, do they pay the 9% sales tax?  When they make their dog box and sell to Lowe's, do they also charge a sales tax?  I understand that Lowe's would charge the retail customer the 9% , but what about before it gets to that point?  If there is no tax charged to business, and there are many kinds of businesses, I would assume that each business will be required to have a tax ID or they would get charged.  But what about unincorporated businesses?

[lupinus]

That's what is "said".  But if a company buys its lumber from a lumber mill, do they pay the 9% sales tax?  When they make their dog box and sell to Lowe's, do they also charge a sales tax?  I understand that Lowe's would charge the retail customer the 9% , but what about before it gets to that point?  If there is no tax charged to business, and there are many kinds of businesses, I would assume that each business will be required to have a tax ID or they would get charged.  But what about unincorporated businesses?

RETAIL.

As in, retail sale to the end consumer. And only on new goods.

[CNYCacher]

That's what is "said".  But if a company buys its lumber from a lumber mill, do they pay the 9% sales tax?  When they make their dog box and sell to Lowe's, do they also charge a sales tax?  I understand that Lowe's would charge the retail customer the 9% , but what about before it gets to that point?  If there is no tax charged to business, and there are many kinds of businesses, I would assume that each business will be required to have a tax ID or they would get charged.  But what about unincorporated businesses?

You can get your own Tax ID number on the IRS website in about 5 minutes.