How do I trace a dead circuit?

[K Frame]

The receptacles in the two full baths on the second floor and the half bath on the first floor are dead.

The lights and fans work just fine though. It appears that power to the master bath and the half bath on the first floor are fed from the hall bath on the second floor. That receptacle has the proper number of black and white wires running through it to account for power in and power being trunked to the other two receptacles in the other two baths.

I'm not getting any power reading on any of the receptacles using my multimeter, but I find that to be a little suspect (low battery in the multimeter?) as I got up against the power terminal and got a stinger. Not a shock, but sort of what you'd expect to feel from an electric fence. As far as I can tell, these receptacles are not on a GFCI, which is something that I want to rectify.

I'm wondering if the breaker is bad or has a bad connection. I'm thinking connection problem, as there has been power on and off to the receptacles over the past couple of months.

My court of last resort is to climb up into the attic and see if there's a take off box up there that might have a loose connection, but I'm pretty sure that there isn't.

Anyone know how I can trace the connection back to the power panel without ripping out walls and without electrocuting myself?

[Brad Johnson]

Get a bird dog tester.  Emits a frequency on one end that you trace on the other end with a receiver.  Just like the trace testers you use for LAN/WAN cables, but made for residential electrical.

Brad

[Matthew Carberry]

You can get 'em at the box stores.

[Warhorse]

The first thing to check is whether you have power coming to the dead receptacles. Pull off the cover and remove the screws holding the receptacle into the box. Pull the receptacle out far enough (don't get a finger on the screws on the receptacle sides unless you first turn off the breaker/fuse) to get your multimeter leads onto the screws on the sides of the receptacle and measure for voltage BETWEEN THE BLACK AND WHITE WIRES.

If power is there, you either have a wire loose or off the receptacle connection or you have a bad receptacle. From what you described, I tend to suspect the former.

If there is no power to either dead receptacle, you are going to have to test all the other receptacles on that circuit to see if there is a wire off or broken from the last one in the chain before the dead receptacles. That will take a bit of trial and error work if you don't know what the wiring sequence is.

Good luck.

[ilbob]

its not unusual for normal looking bathroom receptacles to be fed from a GFCI receptacle. if the gfci trips, the receptacles are dead, but it is not always all that easy to tell where the trip is at.

Sometimes a GFCI breaker is used in the main panel.

Look around for a tripped unit somewhere.

[280plus]

Disconnect the offending wires at both ends, twist one end together, read for continuuity at the other. Should be very close to 0 ohms. That will at least tell you if the wires themselves are bad or have a poor connection somewhere. Given the tingle you got it sounds like a loose connection or a bad connection in the breaker itself, kinda making a connection but not completely. Try changing the breaker? Wish I was there, I'd give it a looksee for you...

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

when was house built/wired?  and there wouldn't be a sticker on panel box saying what company wired it?
some of the companies do weird things with wiring in the name of cheapness. i've had an outlet on the second floor fed from a gfi on the first. and if there have been any remodels all bets are off

you get stuck holler i think you don't live that far from me and i could combine a trip to visit dad with a chance to demonstate that with hundreds of sucessful trouble shoots i too can be completly bamboozled by 3 wires and a couple plugs.

[K Frame]

Warhorse, already done that. That's how I got the zinger when I brushed the hot terminal.

As for the GFCI, there's only one GFCI in the house, in the basement. It's fine. It powers the FIOS box. If it trips, my cable, phone, and internet go out.

House was built in 1979 by Drunken Monkey Home Destrxtors. The LOL Cats could have done a better job.


"Disconnect the offending wires at both ends, twist one end together, read for continuity at the other."

That would be great if I knew which breaker served the other end. The damned box isn't labeled all that well (read, the only labels are the ones that I put in myself).

I've been telling myself that one of these days I'm going to do an electrical mapping on the entire house, but haven't gotten there yet. Maybe that's a project for tomorrow, or as soon as I get the box fixed.

The bird dog is a great idea. I'll look at picking one up.

[280plus]

Get a helper, turn everything on and have them raom tha house whilst you flip breakers? Abby might lend a hand for compensatory beating privleges. 

[Brad Johnson]

Search by "Circuit Breaker Finder".  Homeless Depot and Slowes both have basic models for around forty bucks.

For a little more you can get a good one like the AMPROBE ECB50A, but they are usually only available at an industrial tool or electronics supply.


http://www.amprobe.com/cgi-bin/pdc/viewprod.cgi?pid=2355&tid=1&type=elec

[doc2rn]

Just buy a Tone.

[Warhorse]

Mike

If you got zinged at one of the dead receptacles, you have localized your problem. It almost has to be at that receptacle.

Pull the receptacle all the way out, as far as the wires will let you. Use a flashlight to see if there are any not-connected wires in the box. If so, you have probably found your problem. If not and there is 115v between the two terminals on the receptacle, change the receptacle. (Turn off the breaker to replace the receptacle.)

With two dead receptacles, however, you almost have to have an "open" somewhere. (Yeah, I know, Duh!) I'm still betting on a disconnected wire in one of the two dead receptacle boxes.

[geronimotwo]

its not unusual for normal looking bathroom receptacles to be fed from a GFCI receptacle. if the gfci trips, the receptacles are dead, but it is not always all that easy to tell where the trip is at.

Sometimes a GFCI breaker is used in the main panel.

Look around for a tripped unit somewhere.

hidden somewhere?

if you're getting "zinged", you should be able to determine which breaker it is on. then, turn it off!

[crt360]

You could touch the terminal that gave you the stinger and have someone switch breakers until the stinging stopped.

 

[never_retreat]

hey Irwin whats your 20? I'm an electrician by day and superhero by night.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

the fact its zapping the bathrooms really makes me wonder if there isn't a gfi outlet somewhere you don't know about. possibly somewhere stupid if some jackleg wired it.i did a house once that had all bathrooms rigged like that and for some reason the last remodeler had the freaking gfi in a closet . took me quite a while to figure that one out  if i remember right i just got lucky finding it when i was getting ready to punt and run a new circuit for the baths

[K Frame]

"Pull the receptacle all the way out, as far as the wires will let you. Use a flashlight to see if there are any not-connected wires in the box."

I've already done that. That was the first thing I checked for, and no. All wires accounted for, all connected correctly, and no apparent power from any of the three sets of wires. I did get a fresh battery for the multimeter, though. I was getting some serious weird readings, so I'm hoping that a fresh battery might help make a little more sense.

And the zinger I got was definitely not 120 power. I've been hit with 120 before. It's a lot more... unpleasant...

And it's THREE dead receptacle boxes, not two.

I've been in my house for almost 15 years now. While I don't know 100% which breakers control outlets, I do know that I have only one GFCI in the house, and it's not controlling these outlets.

[K Frame]

hey Irwin whats your 20? I'm an electrician by day and superhero by night.

Fairfax, Virginia.

[K Frame]

You know, I wonder...

I have a pull box high on the wall near the hall bath. Not on the same wall, but I'm wondering if there might be something there. I always assumed it was for the circuit that was run to the attic fan...

I need to get the ladder out of the basement.

[280plus]

Go ahead, we'll wait... 

[K Frame]

Super duper weird creepy time, folks...

The outlets are working again.

[280plus]

Yup, you got a bad/burnt connection somewhere. Either the breaker contacts are shot or a junction box where they're twisted together.

[Gewehr98]

Don't let out the magic smoke, Mike! 

[Leatherneck]

Mike, if there are any "backstab" connections on outlets or switches, get rid of 'em. They fail internally. Don't forget, the wiring generally consists of circuits daisy-chained by location in walls and ceilings. And the opposite sides of every wall are probably on the same circuit.

TC

[K Frame]

And the circuit is dead again.

I have determined a couple of things, though.

I was wrong, the GFCI in the basement DOES kill power to the bathroom receptacles.

I identified the proper breaker, as well.

The GFCI is still working just fine. The connections on it are tight, but I don't have power upstream from it.

I'm going to replace the GFCI and see what that does for me.