This is what Hamas means by "a cease fire"

[De Selby]

They shelled the launch point with 155mm arty. Besides, there's a difference between 'four rockets were fired' and 'firing rockets daily for several years'.

These are not the first rockets since 2006-and they are coming at a time of war.  The Lebanese did more damage in one day of firing than Hamas has done all four years.

[MicroBalrog]

  The Lebanese did more damage in one day of firing than Hamas has done all four years.

......are you serious?

With the four rockets, they injured (lightly) one guy.

[Manedwolf]

......are you serious?

With the four rockets, they injured (lightly) one guy.

Don't mind SS, there. It's his wishful thinking in action. He probably believed Baghdad Bob, too.

[De Selby]

......are you serious?

With the four rockets, they injured (lightly) one guy.

I was referring to the 2006 rocket attacks.  Of course, the latest round of rocket attacks is outdoing Hamas pound for pound easily-Hamas has barely managed to injure anyone in years of its attacks, much less the one day hit that whoever launched those out of Lebanon has managed.

But again, no attack on Lebanon will be forthcoming, because Hizbullah is simply too strong.  I think the IDF has sent the message to the Arabs loud and clear:  arm yourselves to the teeth or you're going to be a target.

[roo_ster]

But again, no attack on Lebanon will be forthcoming, because Hizbullah is simply too strong.

Or it could be as simple as, "No attack on Lebanon will be forthcoming, because it takes more than four rockets to get Israel to attack." 

[AZRedhawk44]

My alphabet-soup-fu is weak today.

What does this acronym mean?

[Manedwolf]

But again, no attack on Lebanon will be forthcoming, because Hizbullah is simply too strong.  I think the IDF has sent the message to the Arabs loud and clear:  arm yourselves to the teeth or you're going to be a target.

*snerk*

Israel has nuclear weapons and thermobarics. They could glassify Hezbollah and every border area of Lebanon if they want to.

Hezbollah is not "strong", Israel is just being civilized in not doing so. Hezbollah is a bunch of savage animals. So is Hamas.

Even according to Al-BBC, Hamas fired a barrage of longer-range rockets into Israel this morning. What's Israel supposed to do about that? Back down and take it? Or pound the sh__ out of them till they CAN'T anymore?

The only thing the Islamist radicals are going to "learn" is that they need to either knock it off, or some serious carpet bombing is going to have to be the endgame, an "us or them" decision. Because this can't go on forever.

Oh, and by the way? Even according to Palis, Hamas fighters are TAKING relief shipments for themselves. Taking the trucks at gunpoint. Hamas is evil. There's no other word for it.

[MicroBalrog]

Oh, and by the way? Even according to Palis, Hamas fighters are TAKING relief shipments for themselves. Taking the trucks at gunpoint. Hamas is evil. There's no other word for it.

And executing people for refusing to turn up to their hate rallies.

And killing UN schoolteachers.

And slave trade.

[roo_ster]

Interesting.  Nice if true, but I am eternally pessimistic about the ME.





http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2009/01/022505.php?format=print

 Dan Diker: A deterrent restored?
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January 9, 2009 Posted by Scott at 7:39 AM

Dan Diker is a foreign policy analyst with the Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs. He writes from Jerusalem today with an optimistic assessment of Israel's current offensive:

    Israel may have reached a deterrent moment in its war in Gaza against Iranian-backed Hamas. I spoke with a senior Arab diplomat last night. He told me that the Arab street is afraid that "the Jews have gone crazy."

    Yes, it's true. He noted, "Israel has begun to restore its deterrence" in the Arab world. "Hamas miscalculated," he added. They had thought Israel would not attack, but would merely accede to tougher Hamas demands for an improved "Tahdiya," their version of a temporary calm.

    This is perhaps one of the more optimistic assessments I have heard from Arab colleagues recently. There is supporting documentation. Hizbullah's immediate public denial yesterday of the Katusha rocket attack from Southern Lebanon against Israel's North and the reports on Lebanese TV of convoys of Lebanese (read: Hizbullah) vehicles moving north in expectation of a major Israeli reprisal strengthens this sense.

    It's also notable that Al Jazeera's reportage yesterday avoided interviewing ordinary Gazans. Arab sources in Gaza confided that the public anger is not directed at Israel any more than it is at Hamas. Al Jazeera, doing a superb job as PR agents for Iran's proxies, likely wanted to avoid risking those types of reactions from the battlefield.

    The source also said that Hamas is "doing very bad things" to Fatah activists in Gaza both as revenge against claims that Fatah leadership provided intelligence to Israel, and as a warning to Fatah to avoid the temptation of being convinced by Egypt, the US and the West that they reassert control in Gaza.

    Fatah officials in the West Bank are also demoralized. Nasser Juma'a, a Palestinian Legislative Council Member from Nablus told a well known British reporter yesterday that the "Hamas are insects" and noted that the Palestinians would likely not see a Palestinian state in his lifetime." Qadura Fares, a Fatah senior, said that the PA would not succeed either in the West Bank or Gaza without "tackling the privileges of the Fatah elite, who he said "have become like princes."

[agricola]

*snerk*

Israel has nuclear weapons and thermobarics. They could glassify Hezbollah and every border area of Lebanon if they want to.

Hezbollah is not "strong", Israel is just being civilized in not doing so. Hezbollah is a bunch of savage animals. So is Hamas.

Even according to Al-BBC, Hamas fired a barrage of longer-range rockets into Israel this morning. What's Israel supposed to do about that? Back down and take it? Or pound the sh__ out of them till they CAN'T anymore?

The only thing the Islamist radicals are going to "learn" is that they need to either knock it off, or some serious carpet bombing is going to have to be the endgame, an "us or them" decision. Because this can't go on forever.

Oh, and by the way? Even according to Palis, Hamas fighters are TAKING relief shipments for themselves. Taking the trucks at gunpoint. Hamas is evil. There's no other word for it.

Again, I would like to see evidence that Hamas are stealing relief shipments, or for any of the stuff that Microbalrog alleges.  With regards to the wider war, as long as Israel utterly fails to give any concessions, and reserves the right to use violence itself, then the only answer will be violence.  It is no wonder that the only game in town for both sides are extremists when moderates are ignored / thoroughly discredited / shot.

As for the Diker piece, I think the only truth in it is the first paragraph. 

[Manedwolf]

Again, I would like to see evidence that Hamas are stealing relief shipments, or for any of the stuff that Microbalrog alleges.  With regards to the wider war, as long as Israel utterly fails to give any concessions, and reserves the right to use violence itself, then the only answer will be violence.  It is no wonder that the only game in town for both sides are extremists when moderates are ignored / thoroughly discredited / shot.

As for the Diker piece, I think the only truth in it is the first paragraph. 

Concessions? Hamas is FIRING ROCKETS AT THEIR CITIES. And has been since they broke the ceasefire.

Concessions? They GAVE them Gaza. They turned it into a missile base to ping rockets at Israel!

What else should they give them to use against them?

[agricola]

Concessions? Hamas is FIRING ROCKETS AT THEIR CITIES. And has been since they broke the ceasefire.

Concessions? They GAVE them Gaza. They turned it into a missile base to ping rockets at Israel!

What else should they give them to use against them?

Yes, throwing people into a big open-air prison, sealing all the border crossings so that the economy gets even worse than it was before and a humanitarian crisis begins to get out of hand, rejecting the result of democratic elections and arming/supporting the losing party so that a civil war erupts are all superb concessions that any reasonable people would have used to create peace. 

Also, Hamas did not break the ceasefire.  The IDF broke the ceasefire both by the November raid and because of repeated failure to open (as agreed) the border crossings.  Hamas declined to renew the ceasefire because of Israeli breaches of it, please note the important difference.

[makattak]

Yes, throwing people into a big open-air prison, sealing all the border crossings so that the economy gets even worse than it was before and a humanitarian crisis begins to get out of hand, rejecting the result of democratic elections and arming/supporting the losing party so that a civil war erupts are all superb concessions that any reasonable people would have used to create peace. 

Also, Hamas did not break the ceasefire.  The IDF broke the ceasefire both by the November raid and because of repeated failure to open (as agreed) the border crossings.  Hamas declined to renew the ceasefire because of Israeli breaches of it, please note the important difference.

Ah yes.

The response to a hostile government is to open your borders and let them send in their minions.

Who also happen to have no problem with blowing themselves up so long as they take a few Jews with them.

So, your idea of Isreali concessions is to make it easier for Hamas to kill Isreali citizens? THAT'S the plan you support?

What responsibility does Isreal have to provide jobs for an INDEPENDENT Gaza?

And if you're so worried, why not decry Egypt? They have a connecting border where people could go to find jobs, supplies, etc...

Not only that, Egyptians aren't apparently hated by the Gazan government. They don't have to worry that the people coming over the border might blow themselves up.

[MicroBalrog]

Not only that, Egyptians aren't apparently hated by the Gazan government. They don't have to worry that the people coming over the border might blow themselves up.

Yeah, Hamas never comitted any acts of terror in Egypt nor killed any Egyptians... wait, what?

[Scout26]

Ah yes.

The response to a hostile government is to open your borders and let them send in their minions.

Who also happen to have no problem with blowing themselves up so long as they take a few Jews with them.

So, your idea of Isreali concessions is to make it easier for Hamas to kill Isreali citizens? THAT'S the plan you support?

What responsibility does Isreal have to provide jobs for an INDEPENDENT Gaza?

And if you're so worried, why not decry Egypt? They have a connecting border where people could go to find jobs, supplies, etc...

Not only that, Egyptians aren't apparently hated by the Gazan government. They don't have to worry that the people coming over the border might blow themselves up.

Bingo !!

Why do the Pali's need Israeli jobs and trade to be a successful, thriving vibrant nation ??   I mean if the jooz are all that's bad and evil in suppressing the noble Pali's then why, why why do they need open borders with Israel ??

IIRC, Israel managed to "make the desert bloom" dispite being completely surrounded, yes, with US Aid.  However, I'd bet that if the aid the Pali's and Hamas got from Iran, UNRWA, etc. if used properly would be enough to produce a successful, thriving vibrant nation, rather then a socialist shithole.

[agricola]

Ah yes.

The response to a hostile government is to open your borders and let them send in their minions.

Who also happen to have no problem with blowing themselves up so long as they take a few Jews with them.

So, your idea of Isreali concessions is to make it easier for Hamas to kill Isreali citizens? THAT'S the plan you support?

What responsibility does Isreal have to provide jobs for an INDEPENDENT Gaza?

And if you're so worried, why not decry Egypt? They have a connecting border where people could go to find jobs, supplies, etc...

Not only that, Egyptians aren't apparently hated by the Gazan government. They don't have to worry that the people coming over the border might blow themselves up.

i) if Israel did not like that aspect of the plan then it shouldnt have agreed to it in the ceasefire negotiations of June 2008 - and it was more about letting stuff in, rather than letting people out;

ii) they have no responsibility to provide jobs, but its a very hostile act when they seal off the territory causing what few jobs there are in the territory to be lost;

iii) I did decry Egypts role in this, the last time you brought it up. 

[makattak]

Yeah, Hamas never comitted any acts of terror in Egypt nor killed any Egyptians... wait, what?

Alright, that may have been hyperbole, but COMPARATIVELY Egypt has been safe.

Also, agricola, you did not decry Egypt, you swept it under the rug and said: "Oh, well, Egypt closed the border at Israel's request."

If you have a country where both Israel and Egypt close their borders to you, does the problem reside with Israel and Egypt, who are no great friends, or with the country they BOTH wish to avoid?

[agricola]

Alright, that may have been hyperbole, but COMPARATIVELY Egypt has been safe.

Also, agricola, you did not decry Egypt, you swept it under the rug and said: "Oh, well, Egypt closed the border at Israel's request."

If you have a country where both Israel and Egypt close their borders to you, does the problem reside with Israel and Egypt, who are no great friends, or with the country they BOTH wish to avoid?

I would imagine that Egypt (or rather, Mubarak) would do what they are told, given that they are (after Israel) the second largest recipient of US Aid ($50 billion since 1975). 

http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/0412/p07s01-wome.html

Still, I am sure you are right that they do it in order to prevent their liberal democracy being overwhelmed by dangerous Islamic radicals.  Oh wait!

[makattak]

I would imagine that Egypt (or rather, Mubarak) would do what they are told, given that they are (after Israel) the second largest recipient of US Aid ($50 billion since 1975). 

http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/0412/p07s01-wome.html

Still, I am sure you are right that they do it in order to prevent their liberal democracy being overwhelmed by dangerous Islamic radicals.  Oh wait!

Ahhhhhhh, here it is.

The United States is really the puppet master behind all of this. (Or is it Isreal pulling all the strings and the United States is the puppet?)

[agricola]

Ahhhhhhh, here it is.

The United States is really the puppet master behind all of this. (Or is it Isreal pulling all the strings and the United States is the puppet?)

You dont think that is of revelance when considering why Egypt might have acted in the way that it did?  But while we are on the subject, why does your country still subsidize a country "that made the desert bloom"?

[Manedwolf]

You dont think that is of revelance when considering why Egypt might have acted in the way that it did?  But while we are on the subject, why does your country still subsidize a country "that made the desert bloom"?

Because we understand what an "ally" is, and because they are a stronghold of Western values in otherwise hostile territory. What they've done, compared to the pestilent hellholes around them, should inspire. Instead, it just inspires jealousy and rage from those who can't create, only destroy.

As to values, though, how many countries in the region there treat women as equals, for example?

[makattak]

You dont think that is of revelance when considering why Egypt might have acted in the way that it did?  But while we are on the subject, why does your country still subsidize a country "that made the desert bloom"?

It may be a reason that the United States has leverage with Egypt, but not why Israel would.

Secondly, asking me why the United States subsidizes ANYONE is probably not a good idea. I would prefer the government not give aid to any other country (or to people within our own).

As to why we do it? Most likely the same reason we give money to the UN: we have politicians who want to support them.

[agricola]

Because we understand what an "ally" is, and because they are a stronghold of Western values in otherwise hostile territory. What they've done, compared to the pestilent hellholes around them, should inspire. Instead, it just inspires jealousy and rage from those who can't create, only destroy.

As to values, though, how many countries in the region there treat women as equals, for example?

An odd sort of ally that sells arms to the Iranians, and the Chinese.  And helps South Africa get a nuke.  And spys on you.  

In fact when has Israel ever helped out militarily with any US war?  

[roo_ster]

Because we understand what an "ally" is, and because they are a stronghold of Western values in otherwise hostile territory. What they've done, compared to the pestilent hellholes around them, should inspire. Instead, it just inspires jealousy and rage from those who can't create, only destroy.

As to values, though, how many countries in the region there treat women as equals, for example?

Also, one must not forget that the cash is part of the truce between Egypt and Israel, the Camp David Accords.  You know, where Israel gave up all of Sinai and has been kept by both parties (Egypt & Israel) for nigh on 30 years?

An odd sort of ally that sells arms to the Iranians, and the Chinese.  And helps South Africa get a nuke.  And spys on you.  

In fact when has Israel ever helped out militarily with any US war?  

True, true.  The Israelis may not be worthy of alliance, but they are the best of the lot in the ME.

I also recall a few Brit subjects and gov't officials doing much more harm than the Israelis have ever hoped or dreamed of doing to the USA:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambridge_Five

[MicroBalrog]

You do realize that Israel tried to cut itself loose of the subsidies at least once, yes?