This is what Hamas means by "a cease fire"

[agricola]

I also recall a few Brit subjects and gov't officials doing much more harm than the Israelis have ever hoped or dreamed of doing to the USA:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambridge_Five

They were traitors, not spys from an ally. 

[agricola]

You do realize that Israel tried to cut itself loose of the subsidies at least once, yes?

A brave attempt, but as we all know the money that gubermint tries to send ones way is hard to get rid of.

[MicroBalrog]

A brave attempt, but as we all know the money that gubermint tries to send ones way is hard to get rid of.

The notion is, I think that the US aid must come back to US companies. If we can cut loose of that, we can shop for arms on the world market. America doesn't want that.


Mind, I'll be voting for the guys who tried to get rid of American aid.

[Manedwolf]

The notion is, I think that the US aid must come back to US companies. If we can cut loose of that, we can shop for arms on the world market. America doesn't want that.


Mind, I'll be voting for the guys who tried to get rid of American aid.

Because I'm sure Putin would be happy to sell stuff to you. 

[MechAg94]

I believe Jews in that area volunteered for the British army during WWII and maybe WWI.  Israel also helped out during the Gulf War, but was that a US war? 

[MicroBalrog]

Because I'm sure Putin would be happy to sell stuff to you. 

Yeah, because Putin is the only arms manufacturer in the world. Because you know, he's the guy who was selling Israel our tanks for the last thirty years. And our submarines.

[Manedwolf]

Yeah, because Putin is the only arms manufacturer in the world. Because you know, he's the guy who was selling Israel our tanks for the last thirty years. And our submarines.

And who else were you thinking of, then?

[roo_ster]

And who else were you thinking of, then?

French, Brits, Belgians.  Heck the Koreans produce quality gear, nowadays, too.

Maybe even the Germans.

[lupinus]

An odd sort of ally that sells arms to the Iranians, and the Chinese.  And helps South Africa get a nuke.  And spys on you.

*cough* British Security Coordination *cough*

[Hawkmoon]

With regards to the wider war, as long as Israel ... reserves the right to use violence itself, then the only answer will be violence..

Did you not study ANY history? Israel occupied Gaza, for years. Israel withdrew, against the wishes of many of its own citizens, in order to allow the creation of a Palestinian state. Was that not a "concession"?

It is Hamas that has initiated the use of violence. You have it backward. Why should Israel NOT "reserve the right" to use violence to defend itself against the use of violence? It is Israel's use of violence that is in answer. You make it sound like Israel is the aggressor and that Hamas is the innocent victim acting in self-defense.

Nothing could be farther from the truth.

[agricola]

Did you not study ANY history? Israel occupied Gaza, for years. Israel withdrew, against the wishes of many of its own citizens, in order to allow the creation of a Palestinian state. Was that not a "concession"?

It is Hamas that has initiated the use of violence. You have it backward. Why should Israel NOT "reserve the right" to use violence to defend itself against the use of violence? It is Israel's use of violence that is in answer. You make it sound like Israel is the aggressor and that Hamas is the innocent victim acting in self-defense.

Nothing could be farther from the truth.

You seemed to have not read the reasons why it was a spectacularly useless concession, and the post about how the truce was broken and by whom. 

Look, there is only one way that this is going to get dealt with in any kind of acceptable fashion*.  Hamas is not going to blindly go away, or put its hands up, irrespective of how many people the IDF kill:

i) someone has to publicly stop fighting, and the IDF will have to withdraw
ii) the world has to recognize the facts on the ground and deal with it - Hamas were elected in fair and square, they have to be negotiated with on that basis.  The next PA elections (Abbas' term has run out IIRC) must be respected or the only option open to them (all the Palestinians) will be violence;
iii) an interim peace has to be worked out that is fair to all sides - if Israel does not want to open the Erez crossing then fair enough, but the other crossings and the airport / ports should be opened up;
iv) a proper peace process has to then take place, ideally using 242 as a basis. 

* acceptable in that lots of people dont die. 

[lupinus]

* acceptable in that lots of people dont die

You ignore the fact that seems to be exactly what likely needs to happen.

Hamas

Does

Not

Want

Peace

[agricola]

You ignore the fact that seems to be exactly what likely needs to happen.

Hamas

Does

Not

Want

Peace

no, thats why they agreed to that six month ceasefire.

[lupinus]

they did it to build rockets without getting their asses handed to them.

They want Israel gone, nothing else will appease them.

[Scout26]

When you have a death cult, like Nazi Germany or Imperial Japan, the only way to get them to change is to give them what they want. 

[RaspberrySurprise]

When you have a death cult, like Nazi Germany or Imperial Japan, the only way to get them to change is to give them what they want. 

I think Neville Chamberlain would be proof of the opposite.

[Nitrogen]

I think Neville Chamberlain would be proof of the opposite.

Well, what they want is the total destruction of their enemy, so yeah, NEville Chamberlain WAS giving them what they wanted :)

[Uncle Bubba]

You both missed his point completely.

A death cult wants death, preferably glorious death. Give it to 'em. Preferably as inglorious as possible. Jodl wanted a firing squad but got a noose. Like that.

[MicroBalrog]

I think you miss the point entirely.

It is true that Hamas needs to be destroyed.

However, the Palestinian people have legitimate grievances. If we want to make sure that no new terrorist groups rise here, these grievances must be addressed. No matter what Hamas does, it doesn't change the legitimacy of the original grievances.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

mb ftw      much as it pains me

[MicroBalrog]

Clearly the Mayans had something going there.

[roo_ster]

Look, there is only one way that this is going to get dealt with in any kind of acceptable fashion

The only way two nations with immovable and irreconcilable (by means of talk) demands have ever been able to solve such conflicts: Beat on each other until one group can no longer take it and is willing to modify its demands.  All else is diplomatic masturbation.

Since Hamas's central demand is the destruction of Israel, my suggestion is to inflict pain on Hamas and those who support them until they come to the realization that their demands are unreasonable and will need to be modified.

I despise this whole pathetic post-WWII practice of "peacekeeping in perpetuity" like we see in Cyprus, the Balkans, and elsewhere.  Let them fight it out and come to a resolution.

MB:

I see your point, but I think that even if the reasonable demands are met, there will still be terrorists who rise up with unreasonable demands that have the better backing in their holy books.  These unreasonable people can only be restrained by the real threat of violence and its application.

[MicroBalrog]

It is correct that there will always be homicidal madmen. However, history shows that when ordinary people have legitimate grievances that are not getting peacefully addressed, they will often turn to support the homicidal madmen, seeing them as their only way out. This doesn't justify supporting the madmen, but this needs to be dealt with as a fact of life.

There is a story I think applies here:

My campus has an annual 'peace' event, with different organizations coming each year to discuss different solutions to the Israeli-Palestinian mess. OVer the years, it got almost entirely taken over by Communists, Socialists, and moonbats of all stripes, wearing black and red and chanting insane slogans.

Last time it happened, one group brought a former FATAH fighter to speak at their booth. It was a fattish, unshaven man with really bad Hebrew, drinking Coke from a 1.5 bottle and looking very uncomfortable in a crowd of college kids. In the stuff he said, there was one phrase that I remembered:

"We should all start behaving like responsible adults."

In a crowd of chanting, booing and jeering Communists it was the sanest thing anybody was saying.