Author Topic: Border plants to be killed to reveal smugglers  (Read 5776 times)

Desertdog

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Border plants to be killed to reveal smugglers
« on: March 24, 2009, 08:14:44 PM »
In additi0n to this, why not clearing about a 1/2 cmile strip on the American side of the border?  They could run, but no place to hide.

Border plants to be killed to reveal smugglers
By DANE SCHILLER Copyright 2009 Houston Chronicle
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/6335446.html

The U.S. Border Patrol plans to poison the plant life along a 1.1-mile stretch of the Rio Grande riverbank as soon as Wednesday to get rid of the hiding places used by smugglers, robbers and illegal immigrants.

If successful, the $2.1 million pilot project could later be duplicated along as many as 130 miles of river in the patrol’s Laredo Sector, as well as other parts of the U.S.-Mexico border.

Although Border Patrol and U.S. Environmental Protection Agency officials say the chemical is safe for animals, detractors say the experiment is reminiscent of the Vietnam War-era Agent Orange chemical program and raises questions about long-term effects.

“We don’t believe that is even moral,” said Jay Johnson-Castro Sr., executive director of the Rio Grande International Study Center, located at Laredo Community College, adjacent to the planned test area.

“It is unprecedented that they’d do it in a populated area,” he said of spraying the edge of the Rio Grande as it weaves between the cities of Laredo and Nuevo Laredo, Mexico.

Border Patrol agent Roque Sarinana said the pilot project aims to find the most efficient way to keep agents safer and better protect the nation’s border. “We are trying to improve our mobility and visibility up and down the river,” Sarinana said.

Criminals have grown adept at using the dense foliage to elude capture, he said.

“They can come over almost undetected,” he said.

Should the Border Patrol project prove efficient, cane removal could become part of its arsenal of tools that have been used along various parts of the U.S.-Mexico border, including walls, fencing and look-out towers.

Members of the Laredo City Council have raised concerns about the spraying program and called on Mexico President Felipe Calderon to intervene.

Mexican officials are raising concerns the herbicide could threaten the water supply for Nuevo Laredo.

A U.S. government outline of the project indicates the Border Patrol is going to test three methods to rid the 1.1-mile bank of river of carrizo cane, which has thick stalks that form tight, isolated trails that can be dark and all but invisible from higher up on the bank.

One method calls for the cane to be cut by hand and the stumps painted with the herbicide, Imazapyr.

Another involves using mechanical equipment to dig the cane out by the roots. It is unclear if herbicides would be necessary in this scenario.

The third and most controversial removal method calls for helicopters spraying Imazapyr directly on the cane — repeatedly — until all plant life in the area is poisoned.

The Border Patrol said that after using the herbicide, it plans to make the river’s edges green again by planting native plants.

Johnson-Castro said he has no issue with removing the cane, a non-native plant brought by the Spaniards centuries ago. The challenge, he said, is how it is done.

“We are saying it is one hell of a big deal,” he said.

Laredo Mayor Raul Salinas said he believes federal officials when they say testing shows the chemical is not dangerous, but that he also realizes opponents of the project have concerns to evaluate.

“It is a complicated situation because we have to think about protecting our border,” said Salinas, a retired FBI agent. “But let’s do it in a sensible, reasonable way to make sure humans won’t be harmed, nor the vegetation, nor the animals, nor the environment.”

dane.schiller@chron.com

digitalandanalog

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Re: Border plants to be killed to reveal smugglers
« Reply #1 on: March 24, 2009, 08:44:13 PM »
Quote
If successful, the $2.1 million pilot project could later be duplicated along as many as 130 miles of river in the patrol’s Laredo Sector, as well as other parts of the U.S.-Mexico border.

Although Border Patrol and U.S. Environmental Protection Agency officials say the chemical is safe for animals, detractors say the experiment is reminiscent of the Vietnam War-era Agent Orange chemical program and raises questions about long-term effects.

I love animals, but 2.1 million bucks for a 1.1 mile stretch of land? :mad:

I say we go with the very cheap route. Can you say "flame thrower"?

Lee

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Re: Border plants to be killed to reveal smugglers
« Reply #2 on: March 24, 2009, 08:55:35 PM »
I'd suggest turning the area into a rehabilitation game preserve for pit bulls confiscated from drug dealers and urban rednecks.  Save the plants!!

PTK

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Re: Border plants to be killed to reveal smugglers
« Reply #3 on: March 24, 2009, 08:57:38 PM »
Agent Orange would be easier to use... cheaper, too.
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Lee

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Re: Border plants to be killed to reveal smugglers
« Reply #4 on: March 24, 2009, 09:04:13 PM »
Not as entertaining as "the woofers meet the roofers" though.  Sorry.. in advance.

wmenorr67

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Re: Border plants to be killed to reveal smugglers
« Reply #5 on: March 24, 2009, 09:16:59 PM »
I think mine the border like the DMZ in Korea.
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Seenterman

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Re: Border plants to be killed to reveal smugglers
« Reply #6 on: March 25, 2009, 10:08:41 AM »
Awesome poison a huge swath of land to deal with illegal immigrants. Whats next pest control with tactical nukes?

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Re: Border plants to be killed to reveal smugglers
« Reply #7 on: March 25, 2009, 10:29:48 AM »
Awesome poison a huge swath of land to deal with illegal immigrants. Whats next pest control with tactical nukes?

FTR, much of the Rio Grande is overgrown with invasive plant species.  They have no natural enemies along the RG and grow hog-wild.  In the process, they crowd out the native species and suck up a huge portion of the RG water.

This clearing of vegetation is, IOW, not only good for catching illegals, it is good for the natural flora & fauna along the RG, which will have an opportunity to reclaim a portion of the RG.

Here is a little primer on the topic:
http://fws-nmcfwru.nmsu.edu/BIBE/
http://fws-nmcfwru.nmsu.edu/BIBE/documents/Young_et_al_Final_Report_EDIS.pdf
Regards,

roo_ster

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Nick1911

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Re: Border plants to be killed to reveal smugglers
« Reply #8 on: March 25, 2009, 10:32:14 AM »
I think mine the border like the DMZ in Korea.

I agree.  It's cheap, unmanned, and effective.

Desertdog

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Re: Border plants to be killed to reveal smugglers
« Reply #9 on: March 25, 2009, 10:38:08 AM »
How about a triple row of razor wire?  Cheap, fast, and slows people down.

AZRedhawk44

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Re: Border plants to be killed to reveal smugglers
« Reply #10 on: March 25, 2009, 10:46:42 AM »
Quote
“We don’t believe that is even moral,” said Jay Johnson-Castro Sr., executive director of the Rio Grande International Study Center, located at Laredo Community College, adjacent to the planned test area.

Poor guy.

Emasculated by being a male with a hyphenated name, he also bears the guilt of passing such a curse down to a son as well.  No wonder he hates America.

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41magsnub

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Re: Border plants to be killed to reveal smugglers
« Reply #11 on: March 25, 2009, 11:04:52 AM »
How about a triple row of razor wire?  Cheap, fast, and slows people down.

The only problem with this is if the fence is not guarded razor wire is quite easy to breach quickly with just cheap bolt cutters. 

Scout26

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Re: Border plants to be killed to reveal smugglers
« Reply #12 on: March 25, 2009, 12:04:22 PM »
The only problem with this is if the fence is not guarded razor wire is quite easy to breach quickly with just cheap bolt cutters. 

Not if you have motion sensor Claymore's as an added feature......
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ilbob

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Re: Border plants to be killed to reveal smugglers
« Reply #13 on: March 25, 2009, 12:50:39 PM »
Getting rid of the invasive species should appeal to the green kooks out there.

Napalm.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2009, 03:53:32 PM by ilbob »
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Grandpa Shooter

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Re: Border plants to be killed to reveal smugglers
« Reply #14 on: March 25, 2009, 12:57:50 PM »
I don't know if any of you out there have seen or lived with the after effects of herbicide poisoning but it is far more insidious than what shows on the surface.

Some of what I deal with is the result of exposure to Agend Orange and I have watched guys die agonizing deaths related to its use.  As much as I would like the invasion from the South stopped in its tracks, I would vote against any chemical approach to the problem.

As long as employers hire them and the feds give them legal standing and benefits, they will keep coming over the border like ants at a picnic.

41magsnub

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Re: Border plants to be killed to reveal smugglers
« Reply #15 on: March 25, 2009, 01:04:08 PM »
Getting rid of the envasive species should appeal to the green kooks out there.

Napalm.

In does, they just don't like the spray herbicide method of doing so.  They actually brought up Agent Orange as an example...

bk425

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Re: Border plants to be killed to reveal smugglers
« Reply #16 on: March 25, 2009, 02:08:21 PM »
Yeah, most herbicides (the ones that work anyway) are neurotoxic. Not a pretty way to go.

On the other other hand, it doesn't usually take much if you're "finishing the job". Cutting the plant and putting the herbicide on the cut... actually ppl have been joking about napalm, but what if they -did- burn them in the fall and then do spot spraying in the spring as the new (probly more vulenerable) shoots come up? We could even employ lower cost (-legal-) labor to use propane burners and then back pack sprayer instead of specialty mechanical diggers and then aerial sprayers.

There should be some cost that is acceptable if we agree that any level of control of the border is a good goal. The technology shouldn't be the -barrier- to attaining this goal, it should be a tool to enable it. Yesterday 'd be good ;)

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Re: Border plants to be killed to reveal smugglers
« Reply #17 on: March 25, 2009, 03:39:12 PM »

As long as employers hire them and the feds give them legal standing and benefits, they will keep coming over the border like ants at a picnic.

For the win.


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Seenterman

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Re: Border plants to be killed to reveal smugglers
« Reply #18 on: March 25, 2009, 04:25:27 PM »
Quote
FTR, much of the Rio Grande is overgrown with invasive plant species.  They have no natural enemies along the RG and grow hog-wild.  In the process, they crowd out the native species and suck up a huge portion of the RG water.

This clearing of vegetation is, IOW, not only good for catching illegals, it is good for the natural flora & fauna along the RG, which will have an opportunity to reclaim a portion of the RG.

Yes but have the effects of this herbacide on human and animals been adequately tested? What about the danger of contaminating drinking water supplies with the herbacide? I havn't done all the leg work but I could not find a definative answer using the almight google. But I did find this . . .

Quote
One primary breakdown product of Imazapyr is quinolinic acid which is irritating
to the eyes, respiratory system, and skin. It is also a neurotoxin and can cause
symptoms similar to those in Huntington’s chorea such as loss of coordination
and trembling.

Doesn't sound fun.

I'd rather not spray possibly harmful chemicals over large swathes of land just as a "feel good" way to deal with illegals. Yea sure we can see them now but is the border patrol going to pick them up? Isn't the border patrol on record with saying some areas are no-go areas because they are to dangerous? This is like passing another law to combat "illegal guns". Im still in favor of that damn fence we keep being promised but have yet to see. Lots of hubub and I predict not alot of real action.


roo_ster

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Re: Border plants to be killed to reveal smugglers
« Reply #19 on: March 25, 2009, 05:13:04 PM »
Quote from: From the OP
Although Border Patrol and U.S. Environmental Protection Agency officials say the chemical is safe for animals...


Quote from: OP
A U.S. government outline of the project indicates the Border Patrol is going to test three methods to rid the 1.1-mile bank of river of carrizo cane, which has thick stalks that form tight, isolated trails that can be dark and all but invisible from higher up on the bank.

One method calls for the cane to be cut by hand and the stumps painted with the herbicide, Imazapyr.

Another involves using mechanical equipment to dig the cane out by the roots. It is unclear if herbicides would be necessary in this scenario.

The third and most controversial removal method calls for helicopters spraying Imazapyr directly on the cane — repeatedly — until all plant life in the area is poisoned.

The Border Patrol said that after using the herbicide, it plans to make the river’s edges green again by planting native plants.

"Carrizo Cane," AKA, "Giant Reed" is arundo donax:
"Displaces native species and forms dense
stands along waterways.  Stands create flood-
control problems, increase fire hazard, and
reduce biodiversity and habitat for wildlife. "

Two of the methods are pretty much risk-free, chemical poisoning-wise.  One, digging them all out, uses only diesel in the machinery and the other, hacking them down and painting the stalks with herbicide, uses such little herbicide relative to broadcast spraying it is not worth worrying about.

Make sure the workers wear gloves, pants, and eyepro, and get on with it.

I would be a bit leery of just hosing the plants down with herbicide, as I think the physical removal of hte material to be an important part of hte effort.

When I was down at Big Bend NP the park ranger said they wanted to get medieval with all the invasive species along the RG and replant with native flora.  The only thing stopping them was the cost.

Well, here is an excuse to do the right thing environmentally, and use homeland security dollars.  It is the winniest of win-wins.  The only way it could get better is if we got Joe Arpaio to provide chain-gang labor to so the cane cutting.







Regards,

roo_ster

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----G.K. Chesterton

Waitone

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Re: Border plants to be killed to reveal smugglers
« Reply #20 on: March 25, 2009, 05:23:30 PM »
"Men, it has been well said, think in herds. It will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one."
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Brad Johnson

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Re: Border plants to be killed to reveal smugglers
« Reply #21 on: March 25, 2009, 05:55:24 PM »
I don't know if any of you out there have seen or lived with the after effects of herbicide poisoning but it is far more insidious than what shows on the surface.

Some of what I deal with is the result of exposure to Agend Orange and I have watched guys die agonizing deaths related to its use.  As much as I would like the invasion from the South stopped in its tracks, I would vote against any chemical approach to the problem.

As long as employers hire them and the feds give them legal standing and benefits, they will keep coming over the border like ants at a picnic.

There's only one problem with comparing this use to the use in Vietnam, and that is there is no comparison.

Agent Orange (the scawy news name for defoliants 2-4-D and 2-4-5-T) was often used striaght out of the drum, and the concentrates were handled without any type of safety regimen or protective gear.

Modern defoliant and broad-spectrum herbicide concentrates can be handled safely by exercising reasonable caution and using very basig protective gear.  The concentrates are diluted from 500:1 to 1000:1 and sprayed in a controlled manner.  Used properly, they pose no more risk than the stuff you spray on your yard for weeds (which is often the consumer-branded version of the commercial product anyway).

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Re: Border plants to be killed to reveal smugglers
« Reply #22 on: March 25, 2009, 07:16:26 PM »
The Brady's stopped ccw in nat park land due to environmental impact, imagine the harm a loaded concealed handgun can do to the ecology :rolleyes: but herbicide is fine??? 
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K Frame

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Re: Border plants to be killed to reveal smugglers
« Reply #23 on: March 25, 2009, 07:16:49 PM »
"
Modern defoliant and broad-spectrum herbicide concentrates can be handled safely by exercising reasonable caution and using very basig protective gear.  The concentrates are diluted from 500:1 to 1000:1 and sprayed in a controlled manner.  Used properly, they pose no more risk than the stuff you spray on your yard for weeds (which is often the consumer-branded version of the commercial product anyway)."

You're relying on the same government that brought you undiluted Agent Orange to remember to delete the Roundup?

Oh ye of wildly optimistic faith...
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sanglant

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Re: Border plants to be killed to reveal smugglers
« Reply #24 on: March 25, 2009, 07:19:29 PM »
hmm, kudzu + an assortment of poison snakes........ :angel: