Author Topic: Robert A. Heilein  (Read 9717 times)

nraforlife

  • New Member
  • Posts: 33
Robert A. Heilein
« on: November 01, 2009, 11:17:49 AM »
Any fans of RAH books here?????? Given the forum name  I am guessing yes.

Silver Bullet

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,859
Re: Robert A. Heilein
« Reply #1 on: November 01, 2009, 11:24:46 AM »
Quite a few.  Do a search.

AJ Dual

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 16,162
  • Shoe Ballistics Inc.
Re: Robert A. Heilein
« Reply #2 on: November 01, 2009, 12:55:39 PM »
Meh...

I love her dearly but my mother just isn't that hot.

Now a pair of teenaged clones of myself converted to female by removing the Y chromosone and doubling the X.... hmmmm.  =D


(If nobody gets it, I'm poking fun at some of the more "out there" stuff in his later works..)
I promise not to duck.

nraforlife

  • New Member
  • Posts: 33
Re: Robert A. Heilein
« Reply #3 on: November 01, 2009, 01:13:03 PM »
strangely the man (RAH) was both an American Patriot and an extreme libertine.

MicroBalrog

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,505
Re: Robert A. Heilein
« Reply #4 on: November 01, 2009, 01:16:44 PM »
Not as strange as some people would think.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

Headless Thompson Gunner

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 8,517
Re: Robert A. Heilein
« Reply #5 on: November 01, 2009, 03:09:27 PM »
RAH's politics seem to be all over the map.  At least, judging by his major works.

The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress was a libertarian/anarchist wet dream.

Stranger in a Strange Land was a hippie socialist screed.

Starship Troopers was heavy on the fascism.


RocketMan

  • Mad Rocket Scientist
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 13,689
  • Semper Fidelis
Re: Robert A. Heilein
« Reply #6 on: November 01, 2009, 03:44:35 PM »
RAH's politics seem to be all over the map.  At least, judging by his major works.

The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress was a libertarian/anarchist wet dream.

Stranger in a Strange Land was a hippie socialist screed.

Starship Troopers was heavy on the fascism.

I've always been a big fan of RAH.  Based on his works alone, I think it would be very difficult to determine his political leanings.
If there really was intelligent life on other planets, we'd be sending them foreign aid.

Conservatives see George Orwell's "1984" as a cautionary tale.  Progressives view it as a "how to" manual.

My wife often says to me, "You are evil and must be destroyed." She may be right.

Liberals believe one should never let reason, logic and facts get in the way of a good emotional argument.

gunsmith

  • I forgot to get vaccinated!
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 8,187
  • I'm sorry, Dave. I'm afraid I can't do that.
Re: Robert A. Heilein
« Reply #7 on: November 01, 2009, 03:50:24 PM »
Any fans of RAH books here?????? Given the forum name  I am guessing yes.
Any gun owners here? :lol:
Politicians and bureaucrats are considered productive if they swarm the populace like a plague of locust, devouring all substance in their path and leaving a swath of destruction like a firestorm. The technical term is "bipartisanship".
Rocket Man: "The need for booster shots for the immunized has always been based on the science.  Political science, not medical science."

MicroBalrog

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,505
Re: Robert A. Heilein
« Reply #8 on: November 01, 2009, 03:56:09 PM »
Quote
Starship Troopers was heavy on the fascism.

I'd say that's a common misunderstanding. SST doesn't really endorse any kind of political view, it's intended to be a novel about the mindset of military men (providing an idealized representation of that, of course).
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

AJ Dual

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 16,162
  • Shoe Ballistics Inc.
Re: Robert A. Heilein
« Reply #9 on: November 01, 2009, 04:34:52 PM »
Starship Troopers was heavy on the fascism.

You need to re-read it. Or your opinion was biased by the deplorable Paul Verhoven movie adaptation.

The "Federation" was a worldwide democratic republic with universal civil rights. The only real limitation on everyone was that the voting franchise an the right to run for public office was earned. RAH didn't get too deeply into it, but the service to earn the voting franchise was varied, and they'd even tailor it for disabled people etc.

(Note that our own U.S. Constitution does not explicitly spell out what criteria granted the right to vote either...)

And those who were serving to earn voting rights were unable to vote or hold office until their service was complete. The military was subordinate to the civilian government. Military service was completely voluntary etc.

The book was very heavy on themes of personal responsibility, and the relationship between the individual and the state and the duties of one to the other, but it was hardly fascist in any sense of the word.

I'd say that's a common misunderstanding. SST doesn't really endorse any kind of political view, it's intended to be a novel about the mindset of military men (providing an idealized representation of that, of course).

Esprit de corps, and military discipline, and the development of leadership qualities was a theme of the book, but it was a background for the political ideas RAH had.

« Last Edit: November 01, 2009, 04:38:08 PM by AJ Dual »
I promise not to duck.

MicroBalrog

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,505
Re: Robert A. Heilein
« Reply #10 on: November 01, 2009, 04:36:16 PM »
Oh, hi Dual. I remember vaguely PMing you. Am I wrong?
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

AJ Dual

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 16,162
  • Shoe Ballistics Inc.
Re: Robert A. Heilein
« Reply #11 on: November 01, 2009, 04:39:55 PM »
You did.

I find I miss them frequently, the little [1] next to "MY MESSAGES" does not often catch my eye.

I'm reading it now..

The various pop-ups and full-screen attention getters of other internet forums has made me lazy.  =)
I promise not to duck.

Tuco

  • Fastest non-sequitur in the West.
  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3,136
  • If you miss you had better miss very well
Re: Robert A. Heilein
« Reply #12 on: November 01, 2009, 04:48:24 PM »
The various pop-ups and full-screen attention getters of other internet forums has made me lazy.  =)

We got that!!

It's a toggle buried in the (surfsurfsurf)
"Profile"
"Personal Message Options"

 =)
7-11 was a part time job.

jamz

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 540
  • bleem
Re: Robert A. Heilein
« Reply #13 on: November 01, 2009, 04:49:21 PM »
For the past few months I'v been listening to nothing but RAH books on tape for my commute.  Been through a lot of them, including his kid's adventure stuff.  Right now listening to The Puppet Masters.  Good stuff!  When I'm done with Heinlein I'm probably going to move to Asimov.
Everybody loves Magical Trevor

Perd Hapley

  • Superstar of the Internet
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 61,524
  • My prepositions are on/in
Re: Robert A. Heilein
« Reply #14 on: November 01, 2009, 05:37:56 PM »
 When I'm done with Heinlein I'm probably going to move to Asimov.

Why not Twilight? 
"Doggies are angel babies!" -- my wife

AJ Dual

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 16,162
  • Shoe Ballistics Inc.
Re: Robert A. Heilein
« Reply #15 on: November 01, 2009, 05:39:33 PM »
Why not Twilight? 

LOL...  :laugh:

How about Piers Anthony, for a little pree-teen panty action?  :|
I promise not to duck.

nraforlife

  • New Member
  • Posts: 33
Re: Robert A. Heilein
« Reply #16 on: November 01, 2009, 05:42:06 PM »
......................
Starship Troopers was heavy on the fascism.



The horrendous movie made after his death, yes........the book not hardly

Balog

  • Unrepentant race traitor
  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 17,774
  • What if we tried more?
Re: Robert A. Heilein
« Reply #17 on: November 01, 2009, 06:01:05 PM »
LOL...  :laugh:

How about Piers Anthony, for a little pree-teen panty action?  :|

A lot of sci-fi authors seem to devolve into perverts as they get older.
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

roo_ster

  • Kakistocracy--It's What's For Dinner.
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 21,225
  • Hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats
Re: Robert A. Heilein
« Reply #18 on: November 01, 2009, 08:55:06 PM »
For the past few months I'v been listening to nothing but RAH books on tape for my commute.  Been through a lot of them, including his kid's adventure stuff.  Right now listening to The Puppet Masters.  Good stuff!  When I'm done with Heinlein I'm probably going to move to Asimov.

I thought I was missing something when I would read Asimov's fiction and go, "Meh."  I never warmed up to his fiction and after I read his autobiography, I think I figured out why: he was terribly provincial.

He lived in NYC and hated/feared to leave it.  I think it had a deleterious effect on his fiction.

His non-fiction was usually high quality & enjoyable, though.
Regards,

roo_ster

“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
----G.K. Chesterton

Gowen

  • Metal smith
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2,074
    • Gemoriah.com
Re: Robert A. Heilein
« Reply #19 on: November 01, 2009, 09:15:19 PM »
I just came home for a huge book sale.  It was put on by a local group called "Friends of the Library."  Thousands of books, hard backs for a $1, paperbacks for .50.  Out of all them books, I couldn't find one I am looking for, Steven Coonts Under Seige. :mad:

And yes, they had all the sci-fi nut cases. =D
"That's my hat, I'm the leader!" Napoleon the Bloodhound


Gemoriah.com

roo_ster

  • Kakistocracy--It's What's For Dinner.
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 21,225
  • Hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats
Re: Robert A. Heilein
« Reply #20 on: November 01, 2009, 09:32:11 PM »
Piers Anthony was fine when I was an early teenager.  After about 14YO or so, his books were just a little too light.  Not light like RAH's youth-oriented stuff, which was of much greater quality, but just too content-free.

Then there is the pedo aspect of a couple of his works...

Regards,

roo_ster

“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
----G.K. Chesterton

jackdanson

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 702
Re: Robert A. Heilein
« Reply #21 on: November 01, 2009, 09:38:22 PM »
DELETED
« Last Edit: November 02, 2009, 02:03:28 AM by jackdanson »

Headless Thompson Gunner

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 8,517
Re: Robert A. Heilein
« Reply #22 on: November 01, 2009, 09:40:12 PM »
You need to re-read it. Or your opinion was biased by the deplorable Paul Verhoven movie adaptation.
My recollection is that one of the main elements of that "universe" was that people weren't citizens unless they did some great act of service to the government, and that military service was the only realistic opportunity to serve for most people.  

I would consider a world in which non-military, non-state-affiliated people are second class citizens (actually, non-citizens) as highly authoritarian/fascist.  There were certainly other elements to Starship Troopers, and it was a great book, but this bit of fascism is impossible to ignore.

(And I mean 'fascist' in the colloquial sense, not the textbook definition.)
« Last Edit: November 01, 2009, 11:23:24 PM by Headless Thompson Gunner »

Regolith

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6,171
Re: Robert A. Heilein
« Reply #23 on: November 01, 2009, 09:52:22 PM »
.

FTFY

That's a pretty broad brush you're painting with their, guy.  =|
The price of freedom is eternal vigilance. - Thomas Jefferson

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves. - William Pitt the Younger

Perfectly symmetrical violence never solved anything. - Professor Hubert J. Farnsworth

RoadKingLarry

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 21,841
Re: Robert A. Heilein
« Reply #24 on: November 01, 2009, 10:08:01 PM »
Quote
My recollection is that one of the main elements of that "universe" was that people weren't citizens unless they did some great act of service to the government,

Not quite. Government/civil service was required, didn't have to necessarily be military.
Read it again with an open mind.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.

Samuel Adams