Author Topic: Navy Ships and the V-22 (Osprey)  (Read 26895 times)

280plus

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Navy Ships and the V-22 (Osprey)
« on: November 22, 2009, 12:39:27 PM »
What do you think Leatherneck?

No link, probably Mil Times:


Flight decks buckle from heat in 10 minutes
 
By Andrew Tilghman - Staff writer
Posted : Sunday Nov 22, 2009 9:37:49 EST
   
Leaving an MV-22 Osprey’s rotors idling on a flight deck will create enough heat to melt and buckle the deck in about 10 minutes.
 
Repeated deck buckling will ruin the flight deck in about 40 percent of the ship’s projected life span.
 
And introducing the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter jump-jet variant will only add to the problem.
 
Those are among the issues cited by the Office of Naval Research as it seeks a modification for flight decks to better withstand and distribute the heat from the new aircraft’s exhaust and downwash.
 
ONR is seeking proposals on how to build a “flight deck thermal management” system that will help distribute the heat from the aircraft and keep the deck temperatures below 300 degrees.
 
Testing shows Osprey downwash can raise deck temperatures as high as 350 degrees.
 
“Currently there are no available solutions other than heavy structural modifications to mitigate deck buckling and thermo-mechanical deck failure,” according to a recent document seeking proposals from private companies, known as a broad agency announcement.
 
The new systems — which could involve a one-inch plate on top of the deck or a cooling system installed below the deck — will likely be installed in the Wasp-class amphibious assault ships and future America-class flattops, according to the ONR document.
 
The ONR announcement reveals the Navy’s challenges as it tries to introduce a new generation of aircraft with tilt-rotor and short-take-off-vertical-landing ability on ships designed for traditional helicopters.
 
The Ospreys, the military’s first tilt-rotor aircraft, create extraordinary heat and force when the nacelles are tilted upward and the rotors muster enough force to lift the aircraft like a helicopter.
 
The F-35B Lightning IIs that are expected to join the fleet in 2012 have a unique vertical-landing feature that turns the jet’s thrusters to face downward during landing and expose the flight deck to hot exhaust that could damage the flight decks.
 
Osprey’s downwash creates enough force to knock sailors and aircraft off the flight deck, according to a report from the Government Accountability Office.
 
Naval Sea Systems Command has not made any determination on the need for flight deck modifications, and potential solutions are still under consideration, NavSea spokesman Alan Baribeau said. Procedures used on the Osprey’s first at-sea deployment aboard the amphibious assault ship Bataan were effective and will be used again, he said.
 
WHAT’S NEXT
The Office of Naval Research’s proposed timeline aims to develop a flight deck cooling system by 2014:
 
• 2010: Award contract.
 
• 2011: Test materials to handle aircraft heat.
 
• 2012: Build a large-scale test panel.
 
• 2013: Conduct land-based testing.
 
• 2014: Install the Thermal Flight Deck Management system on a ship.

 
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Standing Wolf

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Re: Navy Ships and the V-22 (Osprey)
« Reply #1 on: November 22, 2009, 01:14:37 PM »
In exactly one word familiar to one and all: oops!
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Re: Navy Ships and the V-22 (Osprey)
« Reply #2 on: November 22, 2009, 01:56:30 PM »
And it never occurred to anyone before now ...?   ;/
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Re: Navy Ships and the V-22 (Osprey)
« Reply #3 on: November 22, 2009, 02:35:10 PM »
My first inclination is, hmmmm, how am I gonna cool that deck off?  I could use a nice navy contract right about now. =D
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Re: Navy Ships and the V-22 (Osprey)
« Reply #4 on: November 22, 2009, 03:12:58 PM »
So how did they handle the Harriers?
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Re: Navy Ships and the V-22 (Osprey)
« Reply #5 on: November 22, 2009, 03:25:44 PM »
I don't think there was an issue with the Harriers because they exhaust to the rear when idling, whereas the Osprey with the rotors tilted is exhausting right onto the deck.

The solution until they get some sort of fix installed on the deck is probably just going to be a mandate stating that the engine will not be run with the exhaust pointed at the deck for more than X minutes.

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Re: Navy Ships and the V-22 (Osprey)
« Reply #6 on: November 22, 2009, 03:26:41 PM »
Idling, yes, but Harriers had their nozzles pointed straight down at least sometime during the flight regime, no?
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Re: Navy Ships and the V-22 (Osprey)
« Reply #7 on: November 22, 2009, 03:34:16 PM »
At best, this article has its facts wrong. 

At worst, they'll need to revamp a lot of decks to keep up with newer aerospace tech.  Such is progress. 
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mgdavis

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Re: Navy Ships and the V-22 (Osprey)
« Reply #8 on: November 22, 2009, 03:40:29 PM »
Idling, yes, but Harriers had their nozzles pointed straight down at least sometime during the flight regime, no?

I'll preface this by stating that I was not Navy, and that I never worked with Harriers or the V-22.

The Harriers did route exhaust down, but I think it was only for brief periods during take-off and landing.

The article states that
Quote
Leaving an MV-22 Osprey’s rotors idling on a flight deck will create enough heat to melt and buckle the deck in about 10 minutes.


I infer that the exhaust stream during actual flight operations is not the issue, the problem is when you have an aircraft cooking the same spot for an extended period of time.

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Re: Navy Ships and the V-22 (Osprey)
« Reply #9 on: November 22, 2009, 04:26:20 PM »
So what do they do when the Ospreys are idling at a fixed base? Runways are asphalt, and asphalt melts at a much lower temperature than steel ...

On the ships, it would appear (and therefore can't be) a fairly simple matter to add a surface layer with cooling tubes running under it, and just pump seawater through the tubes when the birds are sitting there idling. It could give an entirely new meaning to the term "Cool your jets."
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Re: Navy Ships and the V-22 (Osprey)
« Reply #10 on: November 22, 2009, 05:11:30 PM »
So what do they do when the Ospreys are idling at a fixed base? Runways are asphalt, and asphalt melts at a much lower temperature than steel ...


That's what I was thinking. 
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Re: Navy Ships and the V-22 (Osprey)
« Reply #11 on: November 22, 2009, 06:41:11 PM »
So what do they do when the Ospreys are idling at a fixed base? Runways are asphalt, and asphalt melts at a much lower temperature than steel ...

Good question, Hawkmoon.  I wonder what they do currently to avoid problems on asphalt ramps.
I'd imagine it's not so much of a problem on a concrete ramp.  And taxiing on asphalt shouldn't be a problem as exposure is limited by the Osprey's movement.
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Re: Navy Ships and the V-22 (Osprey)
« Reply #12 on: November 22, 2009, 06:45:33 PM »
I read somewhere that the blast shield used by Navy jets when launched from a carrier are now using the same type of thermal tiles used by the Space Shuttle.....maybe they could try something along that line....
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Re: Navy Ships and the V-22 (Osprey)
« Reply #13 on: November 22, 2009, 06:54:53 PM »
So what do they do when the Ospreys are idling at a fixed base? Runways are asphalt, and asphalt melts at a much lower temperature than steel ...

On the ships, it would appear (and therefore can't be) a fairly simple matter to add a surface layer with cooling tubes running under it, and just pump seawater through the tubes when the birds are sitting there idling. It could give an entirely new meaning to the term "Cool your jets."
Concrete runways maybe? Sea water is not a bad idea but seawater has a bad habit of having things like barnacles and other ooky stuff growing in it that might clog said channels. Believe me, you haven't lived till you've had to "air lance" or punch out the tubes on a seawater cooled shell / tube heat exchanger. No telling WHAT might come popping out of there.  Jellyfish for example, mussels etc. :O Recirculating chilled fresh water would probably be a better way to go. I forwarded the article to a friend of mine who s deeply involved in this kind of stuff, he says he's seen the documents and "it ain't pretty" so I have to assume the article is correct factually.

I made the cooling water suggestion AND the heat tile suggestion to him so I'm kind of pleased to see seeker came up with the same idea. Great minds and all... ;)
« Last Edit: November 22, 2009, 07:01:12 PM by 280plus »
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Re: Navy Ships and the V-22 (Osprey)
« Reply #14 on: November 22, 2009, 09:44:43 PM »
So what do they do when the Ospreys are idling at a fixed base? Runways are asphalt, and asphalt melts at a much lower temperature than steel ...

On the ships, it would appear (and therefore can't be) a fairly simple matter to add a surface layer with cooling tubes running under it, and just pump seawater through the tubes when the birds are sitting there idling. It could give an entirely new meaning to the term "Cool your jets."

I suspect most runways are reinforced concrete, most times which is pretty decent WRT heat.  Also, that concrete is in direct contact with the ground.  That's a whole lotta heat sink.

The idea of working around such beasties on a metal deck does not sound like a fun job.
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Re: Navy Ships and the V-22 (Osprey)
« Reply #15 on: November 22, 2009, 10:16:18 PM »
I don't know why they are even bothering with this.  Obama seems to think we don't need the F-22, so what makes the Navy think they will be anything different with the f-35? Pax Americana is a thing of the past.  We won't have enough firepower to stop The Muppets from taking Manhattan.  When Barney Fife gets done gutting the military, they are going to be wishing for the Carter years.
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Re: Navy Ships and the V-22 (Osprey)
« Reply #16 on: November 22, 2009, 10:25:11 PM »
Idling, yes, but Harriers had their nozzles pointed straight down at least sometime during the flight regime, no?

For L-class ships most all take-off is done in a STOL config, the Harriers deck run with the nozzles aft and near the front of the deck they rotate the nozzles to an intermediate position to facilitate take-off at a still to slow to really be flying speed. Landing, they achieve a hover about 10 ft above the deck and chop the throttle. Controlled crash.  ;/ Most nervous I have ever been with my Inspector 12 stamp was when repairing and returning to service Harrier main struts. No mechanic wants to be the star of the mishap board. That landing gear takes a beating.

 
I read somewhere that the blast shield used by Navy jets when launched from a carrier are now using the same type of thermal tiles used by the Space Shuttle.....maybe they could try something along that line....

The JBDs are steel, some kind of paint on coating, but the key is a cooling system of water pipes running through the JBDs.  The thermal tiles would be too fragile, remember aircraft get towed across the JBDs, sailors with tools and all that.

From my five years on an LHA and going through a shipyard to mad the ship to carry V-22s, they have worked through a lot of these problems. Our poor old ship they had to paint on the hangar deck where you could park them so as not to overstress the structure of what also happens to be the welldeck overhead. I try not to be too mean on the aircraft, mine is only the view of the field maintainer, and our own Pentagon insider is much more informed/enthusiastic on the project.
 
 I just see what might become field sustainability problems,  I'm sure my old shop still doesn't have their multi-million buck bender to make hyd lines for the beast. I understand that the wind limitations for shipboard flight ops are pretty iffy. Things take up a lot of deck space and if you want to spread the thing for maintenance then it is going to the flight deck, no room below, flight deck will then be a little impaired for flight ops and the weather better not be too iffy.

I think the thing would be much better served working from dry land. Boat ops eat a lot of space, lots of support equipment added to an already stuffed ship, etc. The extensive use of carbon fiber is great for increasing the usable load, fuel savings, corrosion resistance and all that, going to be a bear to fix in the weeds when Johnny Abdullah starts blowing holes in it. Same with the 5000psi titanium hyd. lines, and such. Like many of our newest aircraft it exists because Fed-Ex and DHL exist.   

I'm 5 years carrier, five years L-class, 3 years helos tin bender, carbon fiber whacker, and hyd. mech. Don't really miss it, kicking the tires one a month on F-18s is now good enough for me.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2009, 07:23:47 PM by French G. »
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Re: Navy Ships and the V-22 (Osprey)
« Reply #17 on: November 23, 2009, 12:44:06 AM »
I think you may find that the problem they are complaining about is buckling. Steel expands quite a bit when it heats up. It causes the steel to buckle. Just like concrete roads do when it gets really hot sometimes.
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Re: Navy Ships and the V-22 (Osprey)
« Reply #18 on: November 23, 2009, 01:24:16 AM »
Whoa whoa whoa.... 5000 psi?!?!  :O
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Re: Navy Ships and the V-22 (Osprey)
« Reply #19 on: November 23, 2009, 01:25:15 AM »
At best, this article has its facts wrong. 

At worst, they'll need to revamp a lot of decks to keep up with newer aerospace tech.  Such is progress. 

The article has most of its facts correct.

And "revamping the decks for newer aerospace tech" is a more significant problem than you'd think.  Ships have a long service life.  They're not generally overly friendly to huge changes as stuff is very purpose built these days.  Not saying it's possible, just an engineering nightmare.
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Re: Navy Ships and the V-22 (Osprey)
« Reply #20 on: November 23, 2009, 01:44:58 AM »
So, why not use a low-tech solution here?

A simple large diameter hose and pump that pulls sea water up, barnacles/starfish/jellyfish and all,  and washes down the deck to keep it below 200 degrees.  Consider it a Texas-sized patio misting system.

I understand we're dealing with a buttload of thrust and that thrust may not allow the water to get directly between the exhaust and the ship deck... but it'll be close.  And moisture acts as a wonderful thermal conductor.
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Re: Navy Ships and the V-22 (Osprey)
« Reply #21 on: November 23, 2009, 01:47:23 AM »
Whoa whoa whoa.... 5000 psi?!?!  :O

Not that uncommon, more standard is the 3000 psi systems like in my F/A-18Cs. My old helos were 1500 psi. The 5K system lets you have smaller, lighter hyd systems that do the same work as larger 3000 psi systems. Problem is that if a H-46 mech wandered into my shop and needed a line made I could pull out a piece of stainless, hand bender, sharpie marker, terminal hardware and have him on his way before the paperwork is finished. Maybe grab the portable perma-swage kit and go splice it into his existing line. Things just aren't that easy when you are playing with Titanium. The yardbirds actually installed another whole 20'x30' room in the overhead of my ship's hangar. Purpose? Just to house the damn bender for the tube.

Edit: The damn bender. http://www.pines-mfg.com/pdfs/media/om0707.pdf
« Last Edit: November 23, 2009, 01:52:04 AM by French G. »
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Re: Navy Ships and the V-22 (Osprey)
« Reply #22 on: November 23, 2009, 01:54:44 AM »
So, why not use a low-tech solution here?

A simple large diameter hose and pump that pulls sea water up, barnacles/starfish/jellyfish and all,  and washes down the deck to keep it below 200 degrees.  Consider it a Texas-sized patio misting system.

I understand we're dealing with a buttload of thrust and that thrust may not allow the water to get directly between the exhaust and the ship deck... but it'll be close.  And moisture acts as a wonderful thermal conductor.

Deck already fully rigged with flush deck sprinklers for fire fighting and CMWD. Keep your salt water away from my corrosion magnet airplanes. kthxbai
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Re: Navy Ships and the V-22 (Osprey)
« Reply #23 on: November 23, 2009, 05:11:06 AM »
Back from the river, checking in late...
This has been known for years--literally. We first discovered it when an
Osprey was kept sitting on the deck (I think it was Bataan) for about 45
minutes ready to launch with both engines running. As it stayed in one spot the deck heated and warped. After the Osprey departed and the deck cooled it straightened itself again when cool. So immediate workarounds were NOT to idle an Osprey in one spot for (I think) 20 minutes; if they're going to be longer, they shut down the right engine. That was several years ago.

The worry, long-term, is that (a) the deck plates will scinter--undergo
molecular changes- with many cycles of heating and cooling; and (b) the
spaces underneath some spots on the deck may have either combustible
material or stuff that doesn't handle heat well.

The medium-term workaround has been to fabricate hot-plates that look like a metal web on wheels that deck handlers wheel into place under the V-22's right engine for extended engine runs.

This current project is DARPA asking for proposed long-term solutions and
I'm sure it will be a beauty like seawater pumped through under-deck
channels to carry off the heat or something. I've no idea what the Navy will finally settle on, but I'm sure it will be expensive.

Many have commented that "this will be even worse for the Joint Strike
Fighter." Not true: the JSF, like the Harrier, points it's nozzles (exhaust)
downward for brief periods during takeoff and landing. While the total heat exhausted is much greater than the Osprey emits, it's only for brief
periods, so no problem.

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Re: Navy Ships and the V-22 (Osprey)
« Reply #24 on: November 23, 2009, 07:55:17 AM »
Quote
I've no idea what the Navy will finally settle on, but I'm sure it will be expensive.
Sounds like the Navy I know...  :lol:

One error on my part. We wouldn't find jellyfish in the heat exchangers, they'd get caught in the strainers upstream and we'd find them in there when we cleaned them. No telling WHAT you might find in the strainers. Barnacles and mussles however would find their way in as seed and grow in the tubes. When I say "air lance" I mean we would insert a rubber plug at one end of the tube(s) and we had a "gun" that would fire an air slug in behind it and shoot the plug through to the guy at the other end who is holding a cardboard box to catch the slug. It was a bit messy. Probably still is.  =D

Apparently they are looking at modified JBDs as a solution but nothing is settled. Do they use seawater in those?? If they do is there a way to clean the debris out? Like opening them up?
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