Author Topic: Stephen Hawking Warns Against First Contact  (Read 35089 times)

mellestad

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Re: Stephen Hawking Warns Against First Contact
« Reply #125 on: May 01, 2010, 01:27:32 AM »
@Giga:  Not only that, but I am pretty sure radio signals are going to be unintelligable after a short distance.  Short, in space terms anyway.

@AJ:  That does assume things like Von Numan machines are practicle or realistic.  Or that the species sending them would want to use the probe to make contact.  (That book I mentioned earlier, Spin, has a large self-replicating probe part, but I don't want to bring it up because it is sort of a spoiler :P)

@Tyme:  Or heck, if the quantum physicists are right about manyworlds http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Many-worlds_interpretation then it doesn't even matter if we're the only life in 'this' universe, there would still be an infinite variety of life.  Lots of big names in the physics community think it is likely that manyworlds isn't just a math theory, but actually represents a 'real' thing that means a near infinite or infinite number of universes.  I don't understand it much myself, but on another board I've seen physics people swear up and down they think that because of experimental results due to some kind of wave collapse experimentation done on quantum events.

Tallpine

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Re: Stephen Hawking Warns Against First Contact
« Reply #126 on: May 01, 2010, 11:49:36 AM »
Quote
- Advanced civilizations might use the communication media we do, but they may not want to talk to us, even though they're perfectly capable.

I can certainly understand that decision  ;)    :P



Quote
- Maybe we're a colony of theirs they seeded with bacterial life, possibly including teraforming, and are leaving us alone on purpose.

Ironically, this almost makes the most sense.  =|

The fossil record seems to indicate vast numbers of new species "popping up" in a relatively short time, punctuated by vast static periods.  This is oddly analogous to a allegorical interpretation of Genesis.   :O

That still leaves no answer to the origin of life: where did "they" come from? (and when will "they" come back?)  Maybe it's turtles all the way down ...  :lol:
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

230RN

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Re: Stephen Hawking Warns Against First Contact
« Reply #127 on: May 01, 2010, 12:55:46 PM »
Just noodling this around this AM while waiting for the windshield guy to come and fix my windshield, I was thinking about the little antenna in my "atomic" watch, which picks up the 60kHz time signal from the Fort Collins Atomic clock transmitter without any trouble:



That antenna is only what, 5/8" tops.  (The lopped-off corners are so it will fit the inside curve of the watch case.)

And if my arithmetic is correct, the 60kHz signal has a wavelength of something like 40 miles.

I've even stuck the watch in a sealed metal cookie can inside my ungrounded stove oven and it picked up the signal from WWVB just fine.  More: http://tf.nist.gov/stations/radioclocks.htm

Now admittedly I'm only 70 miles from the Fort Collins transmitter, but that signal covers most of the United States.

Also admittedly, nobody's going to use a coiled loop for gigaHertz signals, but I was just struck with the advances in antenna theory from the days when I strung (strang?) 1/4 wave dipoles for 80 meters.

So who knows what we might accomplish in this area?

Or "they."

Terry, 230RN

PS.  My stove is not grounded because I unplugged it.  I don't use a stove for anything but storage.  I add this remark in case anyone was going to say that I was only picking up the "ground wave."

PPS.  mtnbkr's remark about the QST article is duly noted, though I haven't seen that one yet.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2010, 01:23:25 PM by 230RN »
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Ron

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Re: Stephen Hawking Warns Against First Contact
« Reply #128 on: May 01, 2010, 01:01:08 PM »
Seeing Aliens Will Likely Take Centuries
By Charles Q. Choi
Astrobiology Magazine
posted: 29 April 2010
07:51 am ET

Although our telescopes will likely become good enough to detect signs of life on exoplanets within the next 100 years, it would probably take many centuries before we could ever get a good look at the aliens.

"Unfortunately, we are perhaps as far away from seeing aliens with our own eyes as Epicurus was from seeing the first other worlds when, 23 centuries ago, he predicted the existence of these planets," said astrobiologist Jean Schneider at the Paris Observatory at Meudon.

He and his colleagues discussed the difficulties of studying distant alien life in the journal Astrobiology.

Schneider and his colleagues say that in the next 15 to 25 years, there will likely be two generations of space missions able to analyze exoplanets in greater detail. The first generation will feature 1.5-to-2.5-meter-wide coronagraphs to block out the direct light from a star to help search for giant planets and nearby super-Earths.

The second generation will feature interferometers, coronagraphs and other equipment to better analyze the light reflected off these exoplanets. These missions could reveal what the planets might look like, and what they might have in their atmospheres or on their surfaces. At the same time, there will likely be coronagraphic cameras on extremely large ground-based telescopes.

After these projects, future missions could search for more potentially habitable planets either by peering at more distant stars more than 50 parsecs away or at rocky moons of giant planets seen in the habitable zones of nearby stars.

The follow-up missions also could deeply investigate any exoplanets that display potential signs of life. Such missions will require much larger arrays in space — for instance, taking a 100-pixel image of a planet twice the width of Earth some 16.3 light years away would require the elements making up a space telescope array to be more than 43 miles apart.

Such pictures of exoplanets could make out details such as clouds, rings, oceans, continents, and perhaps even hints of forests or savannahs. Long-term monitoring could reveal seasonal shifts, volcanic events, and changes in cloud cover.

One might even detect the presence of moons by shadows they project on the planets. More sensitive instruments could hunt for the wavelengths of infrared light associated with carbon dioxide, which could tell a lot about the atmosphere.

Beyond conventional signs of life as we know it, such as oxygen in atmospheres, another type of signal could be "technosignatures," features that cannot be explained simply by complex organic chemistry. Technosignatures could include laser light, chlorofluorocarbon gases, or even artificial constructions.

"Looking for aliens is philosophically important — it would tell us what is essential in the human condition," Schneider said.

However, if scientists actually detect signs of life, it will frustratingly take many centuries before humanity can realize the hope of seeing what these aliens might actually look like, Schneider and his colleagues explained.

"It is very disappointing," Schneider said.

To begin imaging even giant organisms 30 feet long and wide on the closest putative exoplanet, Alpha Centauri AB b, some 4.37 light years away, the elements making up a telescope array would have to cover a distance roughly 400,000 miles wide, or almost the sun's radius.

The area required to collect even one photon a year in light reflected off such a planet is some 60 miles wide. To determine if the lifeform is moving with a speed of even 2 feet per minute — and that the motion you're seeing is not due to errors in observation — the area required to collect the needed photons would need to be some 1.8 million miles wide.

The only alternative would be to dispatch spacecraft out to the planet, but such a journey would be long and perilous. At speeds of 30 percent the speed of light, a 100-micron-thick interstellar grain roughly the width of a human hair would pack roughly as much kinetic energy as a 100-ton body traveling 60 miles per hour.

No currently available technology could protect against such a threat without a spacecraft massing hundreds of tons, which in turn would be extraordinarily difficult to accelerate up to high speeds. One could instead travel more slowly and thus more safely, but at even 1 percent the speed of light (or about 1,860 miles per second) it would take millennia for the spacecraft to reach its target destination.

Regardless of the approach, it seems it will take centuries to get direct visual contact with any nearby aliens, at least in the framework of the science and technology we have now. What physics we might have in a millennium is not reasonable to anticipate, the researchers said.

"I hope that there will be an unpredictable revolution in physical concepts," Schneider quipped.

Not everyone found these prospects disappointing.

"We have always been planning on detecting life indirectly, by searching for atmospheric signatures of life, most likely of the single-cell variety," said astrobiologist Alan Boss at the Carnegie Institution of Washington, who did not take part in this study.

"That is what we have been hoping for, and we are still a long way from being able to achieve even that modest goal. We will be overjoyed when we are able to accomplish that goal — it is a race with our planetary colleagues to see if they can find evidence for life on Mars before we find evidence for life outside the solar system!"

Of course, there's always a chance we'll get to study aliens close-up if they come seeking us, rather than the other way around. According to Boss, however, that is an unlikely event.

"We do not need to worry about aliens coming to Earth to enslave us — interstellar travel by living creatures is science fiction, not science fact," he said. "No one needs to worry at night about the interstellar air raid sirens going off."

http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/alien-contact-will-take-centuries-100429.html

Redefining the human condition is a big part of this search and hope for life outside of earth. The bolded portion just confirms my thoughts on the subject.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2010, 01:04:13 PM by Ron »
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roo_ster

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Re: Stephen Hawking Warns Against First Contact
« Reply #129 on: May 01, 2010, 02:34:51 PM »
Ron:

Ayup.  Turning science from a quest for fact into a quest for meaning.
Regards,

roo_ster

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tyme

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Re: Stephen Hawking Warns Against First Contact
« Reply #130 on: May 01, 2010, 02:35:35 PM »
Quote
Dude, it'd take 15 billion years for a signal to reach across the universe.

More than that now.
Age of universe is 13.7 +- ~.2 billion years
Size of universe is at least 78 billion lightyears in diameter

Quote from: Tallpine
That still leaves no answer to the origin of life: where did "they" come from? (and when will "they" come back?)  Maybe it's turtles all the way down ...  cheesy
Absolutely.  I was not using the "maybe cellular life was seeded by aliens" explanation to avoid the abiogenesis problem, but merely to demonstrate one possibility, however unlikely, for why we can't detect alien life -- if they seeded life on Earth and if they're still around, then clearly they could reveal themselves, but don't want to.

(As for the problem of abiogenesis, it had to occur somewhere (unless you believe in a supernatural God).  Here's a thought for those who think that cells are too complex to ever have formed via random processes (under the influence of non-random selection pressures) (but I really think we cannot reach such a conclusion yet, scientifically): maybe there's an entirely different form of life -- either not carbon based, or at least not based on the kind of cellular life we know -- that's easier to form from the perspective of required components and statistical thermodynamics; maybe such life formed, evolved, developed into sentient species, and they engineered cells and sent them to Earth specifically because they realized it would be the most effective form of life on Earth.  This concept is well known in the terraforming literature: it might well be easier to adapt life to other planets than it would be to terraform planets to suit existing life forms.  OTOH, there seem to be a lot of recent papers on the idea that organic life could have formed in the clay interiors of comets, in which case a comet impact seeded life on Earth.  Same general concept of life originating elsewhere, except no aliens are necessary.)
« Last Edit: May 01, 2010, 02:39:08 PM by tyme »
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Tallpine

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Re: Stephen Hawking Warns Against First Contact
« Reply #131 on: May 01, 2010, 03:51:44 PM »
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The only alternative would be to dispatch spacecraft out to the planet, but such a journey would be long and perilous. At speeds of 30 percent the speed of light, a 100-micron-thick interstellar grain roughly the width of a human hair would pack roughly as much kinetic energy as a 100-ton body traveling 60 miles per hour.

Yeah, but the force field will protect the ship  ;)
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

MicroBalrog

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Re: Stephen Hawking Warns Against First Contact
« Reply #132 on: May 01, 2010, 04:00:11 PM »
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@AJ:  That does assume things like Von Numan machines are practicle or realistic.  Or that the species sending them would want to use the probe to make contact.

And assuming the probes all survive their journey. And that the species does not limit their amounts somehow. And that nobody shoots at them.
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tyme

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Re: Stephen Hawking Warns Against First Contact
« Reply #133 on: May 01, 2010, 04:40:06 PM »
Quote
"Looking for aliens is philosophically important — it would tell us what is essential in the human condition," Schneider said.

The same could be said for AI, which I think has much more of a chance of being achieved on a timescale of hundreds of years.
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MicroBalrog

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Re: Stephen Hawking Warns Against First Contact
« Reply #134 on: June 06, 2010, 05:25:12 AM »
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

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seeker_two

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Re: Stephen Hawking Warns Against First Contact
« Reply #135 on: June 06, 2010, 07:34:24 AM »
OK.....everyone be very, very quiet until they leave.....  =|
Impressed yet befogged, they grasped at his vivid leading phrases, seeing only their surface meaning, and missing the deeper current of his thought.