AZ Border out of control... so: Go after Americans!

[AZRedhawk44]

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/06/16/closes-park-land-mexico-border-americans/

About 3,500 acres of southern Arizona along the Mexican border is closed to U.S. citizens due to increased violence in the region.

The closed off area stretches 80 miles along the border and includes part of the Buenos Aires National Wildlife Refuge. It was closed in October 2006 "due to human safety concerns," the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service said Wednesday in response to news reports on the closure.

Pinal County Sheriff Paul Babeu told Fox News that violence against law enforcement officers and U.S. citizens has increased in the past four months, further underscoring the need to keep the 80 miles of border land off-limits to Americans.

The refuge had been adversely affected by the increase in drug smugglers, illegal activity and surveillance, which made it dangerous for Americans to visit.

"The situation in this zone has reached a point where continued public use of the area is not prudent," said refuge manager Mitch Ellis.

“It’s literally out of control,” said Babeu. “We stood with Senator McCain and literally demanded support for 3,000 soldiers to be deployed to Arizona to get this under control and finally secure our border with Mexico. “

U.S. Fish and Wildlife officials have warned visitors in Arizona to beware of heavily armed drug smugglers and human traffickers.

“We need support from the federal government. It’s their job to secure the border and they haven’t done it,” said Babeu. “In fact, President Obama suspended the construction of the fence and it’s just simply outrageous.”

Signs have been posted warning Americans not to cross into the closed off territory south of Interstate 8. Babeu said the signs are not enough – he said Arizona needs more resources to help scale back the violence caused by the drug cartels.

“We need action. It’s shameful that we, as the most powerful nation on Earth, … can’t even secure our own border and protect our own families.”

Great.

Because the combined forces of the county governments, state DPS, and federal BP is not able to do the job... we restrict the use of US land from US citizens.

This is the first step of actually ceding the territory to Mexico.  All we need is more incursions from Mexican military to make it a de facto turnover of land.

I've hunted this strip of land.  There's deer and javelina down there, and I enjoyed the experience.  I'd love to go back down.  Now I can't.  Because the government will prosecute ME for disobeying the rules.  Rather than the illegals and drug cartels and Zetas.

[tyme]

This is the first step of actually ceding the territory to Mexico.  All we need is more incursions from Mexican military to make it a de facto turnover of land.

Spineless federal politicians will gladly let Mexico have the land back, as long as Mexicans living within the theoretical borders of the U.S. keep voting for said politicians.

[Seenterman]

Isn't this similar to travel warnings put out by the State Dept. concerning other countries?  Is it just a warning that this area is dangerous or are the Feds going to actually enforce a "forbidden zone" and arrest Americans in the area?

[AZRedhawk44]

Isn't this similar to travel warnings put out by the State Dept. concerning other countries?  Is it just a warning that this area is dangerous or are the Feds going to actually enforce a "forbidden zone" and arrest Americans in the area?

Reading the article, I see:

Signs have been posted warning Americans not to cross into the closed off territory south of Interstate 8. Babeu said the signs are not enough – he said Arizona needs more resources to help scale back the violence caused by the drug cartels.

Reading between the lines, I interpret it to mean that they want more law enforcement and national guard so that they can harrass the low-hanging fruit of legitimate hunters, hikers, folks that live in the area or visit friends/family in the area... rather than combating the actual illegal alien problem or drug problem.

Note they say "scale back the violence caused by the drug cartels" rather than "combat the drug cartels and push them back into Mexico."

Violence is "caused" by two people or groups of people entering into conflict.  You can successfully "scale back violence" by removing one of the parties from the location of conflict.

Which do you think is easier for FedGov to accomplish?

All that will happen, is this 80 mile stretch will become overrun, and the next 80 miles will become dangerous as time progresses.

[41magsnub]

Rhetorical question alert!

This is the sort of thing the military is made for right?  Armed groups of foreigners invading US soil, breaking our laws, and threatening our citizens to the point that the law enforcement agencies cannot deal with it.  Wouldn't this be a good use of military force..  not in an advisory or support capacity with a feel good handful of National Guardsmen deployed, but in a go in there and enforce our borders capacity with rules of engagement similar to our troops in Iraq and Afghanistan?

Send in the Border Patrol with a armored Humvee with a mk19 or M2 riding shotgun and see if that takes the starch out of the armed bands of smugglers or not!

[longeyes]

Europe has its "no-go zones;" we, unless we wake up fast and hard, will have ours.

[Tallpine]

This is the first step of actually ceding the territory to Mexico.  All we need is more incursions from Mexican military to make it a de facto turnover of land.

Pretty soon it won't be safe for gringos to go south of Baseline Road 

[eyebrows]

Here is a map of the affected area.
http://www.fws.gov/southwest/refuges/arizona/buenosaires/PDFs/Closure.pdf

This has been in effect since 2006. Now what I'm curious about is if the authorities have been actively trying to get this region under control over the last 4 years.

Seems to me that enough armed smugglers and trespassers (illegal aliens) to shut down a portion of the US territory is pretty dang close to the same thing as a foreign army occupying US territory.

[230RN]

This.  Quoted for truth:

eyebrows said:

Seems to me that enough armed smugglers and trespassers (illegal aliens) to shut down a portion of the US territory is pretty dang close to the same thing as a foreign army occupying US territory.

What do the people who own that little snippet of private property think of all this?  Is Sasabe an Arizona county, or a town, or what?

[AZRedhawk44]

There's several ranches in that area.  I've been down there many times with the Minutemen.

Let's put it this way:  They invite the Minutemen down, feel better when they are camped out on their back 40, provide electricity for the radio tower, provide water for everyone, and sometimes even cooked for us.

It's a nice feeling, having a couple dozen people whom you know have undergone background checks (every MCDC volunteer had one), conform to a standard SOP, and disapprove of the fact that your property is being stolen or vandalized and intend to help you about it.  And they have guns themselves, if something really bad comes along.

I dog the MCDC for Chris Simcox's screw-ups, but the volunteers were 100% awesome people and I had every bit as much faith and admiration for each of them as I do for the Appleseed folks I work with, now. 

[longeyes]

There are people in our government who believe that WE are the aliens, that we live in occupied territory.  All else follows.

[Seenterman]

Why doesn't the AZ Governor call up the National Guard at this point? I can't belive things have been allowed to get that bad down there. It's disgraceful on the Feds part. You guys really need some help down there. Hopfully this highlights the problem and something gets done.   

[tyme]

National Guard?  You're joking, right?  Hillary has just declared that fed.gov is going to sue AZ over their new anti-illegal immigrant law.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20008066-503544.html  (it's on drudge...)

Confused?  I sure am... I didn't realize the State department would be involved in announcing federal lawsuits against U.S. States.  But it certainly would not be compatible with that paradigm for them to send NG troops to help secure the dangerous border area.  If anything I bet they blame Arizona's anti-"undocumented" attitude for the increased violence.  The solution is clearly less, not more, interference with the Mexicans.

[Lennyjoe]

Damn, that area is good hunting for deer and quail.  I harvested a 4x3 there in 06.  We camped on Buenos Aires and were about 3 miles from the border where I shot him.  We did see some illegals and the border patrol folks were pretty busy there that week.  That's were we stopped and talked to the National Guard guys for a minute during the hunting week.  My buddy took a 4x4 there the day before me.

Sad to see its now closed off to us.

[longeyes]

Maybe they'll declare big chunks of our National Parks off-limits next?  After all, they're harvest areas for foreign pot growers.

[taurusowner]

This is the sort of thing the military is made for right?  Armed groups of foreigners invading US soil, breaking our laws, and threatening our citizens to the point that the law enforcement agencies cannot deal with it.  Wouldn't this be a good use of military force..  not in an advisory or support capacity with a feel good handful of National Guardsmen deployed, but in a go in there and enforce our borders capacity with rules of engagement similar to our troops in Iraq and Afghanistan?

Send in the Border Patrol with a armored Humvee with a mk19 or M2 riding shotgun and see if that takes the starch out of the armed bands of smugglers or not!

You're right.  I'm a National Guard soldier myself.  When the Mexican Army or Police cross our border, they should be met with bullets and grenades.  I believe so many people brazenly cross the border because they know we won't ever do anything about it.  Even Border Patrol just arrests and deports illegals.  Our most extreme action against them is to just throw them back so they can give it another go.  Our border is like a dying animal that is getting tested out by vultures.  Circling closer and closer, a nibble here, picking a bit there, and we don't move.  We're at the point now where we haven't fought back so long the rest of the flock is gladly eating away at us.  We need to bite back.  Shoot some people and blow up some vehicles.  It's sounds crass, but that's what it's gonna take.  Stop greeting the  invaders with a "better luck next time" and start greeting them with machine guns.  I think it would have a pretty dramatic effect on border crossing in general.

[Balog]

There are currently small groups of private citizens who take a more... aggressive approach to the problem. Pretty well funded too, some of the comm gear and NOD's their backers supply aren't exactly cheap. Sad that Americans need to go mercenary on our own damn soil, but that's the reality on the ground...

[RevDisk]

You're right.  I'm a National Guard soldier myself.  When the Mexican Army or Police cross our border, they should be met with bullets and grenades.  I believe so many people brazenly cross the border because they know we won't ever do anything about it.  Even Border Patrol just arrests and deports illegals.  Our most extreme action against them is to just throw them back so they can give it another go.  Our border is like a dying animal that is getting tested out by vultures.  Circling closer and closer, a nibble here, picking a bit there, and we don't move.  We're at the point now where we haven't fought back so long the rest of the flock is gladly eating away at us.  We need to bite back.  Shoot some people and blow up some vehicles.  It's sounds crass, but that's what it's gonna take.  Stop greeting the  invaders with a "better luck next time" and start greeting them with machine guns.  I think it would have a pretty dramatic effect on border crossing in general.

Most soldiers would have a hard time machine gunning women and children.  Not really worth it either.   Build a wall (and not a chintzy one either), put some landmines in front of it, give significantly more leniency in the rules of engagement, etc. 

The biggest problem is not the border.   There are three problems that are the cause.  One, employers who hire illegals.   Two, welfare state.  Three, the corruption and other general problems in Mexico. 

So let's stop just focusing on the border.  Crack down hard on businesses that hire illegals, to include direct criminal charges for managers, HR and executives.  With immunity if e-Verify screws up, not them.   Gut the welfare state or require proof of citizenship for using social services.   As for Mexico, I dunno what would help short of drastic measures that are politically unacceptable.

[longeyes]

Most soldiers would have a hard time machine gunning women and children.  Not really worth it either.   Build a wall (and not a chintzy one either), put some landmines in front of it, give significantly more leniency in the rules of engagement, etc.

Herein lies the dilemma of a nation that has mistaken "compassion" for vital strength.  No one condones gunning down women and children, but those women and children are, make no mistake, the advance guard for our cultural destruction and the "compassion" we use to rationalize not taking action against them is a form of political suicide.  Therefore some decisive action--not terminal but reasonable and forceful--is called for to protect our own rights.

I said previously that the real choice we are facing is the unpretty one of coercing illegal aliens to leave or coercing our own citizens to embrace them.  You will see that played out dramatically in the coming months.

[zxcvbob]

Most soldiers would have a hard time machine gunning women and children.  Not really worth it either.   Build a wall (and not a chintzy one either), put some landmines in front of it, give significantly more leniency in the rules of engagement, etc.

But I think they'd jump at the chance of blowing-up or capturing Mexican soldiers on our side of the river shooting at the Border Patrol.

I want a sheriff to capture 'em because they can tell Hillary "F.U." when she wants them released to Mexico (with an obligatory apology from Obama, of course.)  Regular Army would have to obey the President.  N.G. would be in a tight spot if they got conflicting orders from the Prez and from the Governor, but the governor would probably cave.  A bull-headed sheriff answers to nobody except the voters. 

[AZRedhawk44]

A sheriff doesn't have the firepower and manpower to capture or kill a squad of mexican soldiers.

[Jocassee]

A sheriff doesn't have the firepower and manpower to capture or kill a squad of mexican soldiers.

Deputize a few hard-assed rednecks and you might be surprised.

[Viking]

A sheriff doesn't have the firepower and manpower to capture or kill a squad of mexican soldiers.

Funny, I suddenly see a good use for all those armored fighting vehichles that various PDs all over the US reportedly bought the last few years. And all those heavy machineguns. Evens out the odds a bit, doesn't it?

[longeyes]

The militarization of our police is designed to keep US quiet.  Everyone here knows that.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

Everyone here knows that


often the battlecry of folks selling the less viable ideas