U.S. not prepared for Mumbai-like terror attacks

[MicroBalrog]

I'm not necessarily advocating this. I understand there would be legal issues surrounding this solution. But look: Israel is part of the same civilization. It suffers from the same social ills and handicaps America has. And it's far, far more anti-gun than most European countries. In America it would be legal for a security company to just buy a dozen rifles and put them in a locker somewhere on-premises.

[lupinus]

Why not?

Israel has - at several factories/plants - 'readiness squads' composed of local employees, and an arms locker with M16 rifles loaned from the Army. Why can such a thing not exist at a shopping mall or a factory if you are that worried?

But but, then the responding police might be confused! Better the hide and be a good witness later.

[Tallpine]

Arranged? Doubt it.  But clearly expect the 4th Amendment to be tossed to the wayside if the people are "scared" enough.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northwest_Airlines_Flight_253#Pre-boarding_event

 

[AZRedhawk44]

But what you sound like you're advocating, micro, is a bunch of long-guns in "fire extinguisher" style access lockers.

"Break glass in case of Jihad."

That won't fly here.  Random public access to M4/M16 rifles won't fly.

Concealed pistols do seem to do okay over here, though.

A couple ounces of proper coaching and a reasonable degree of official support FOR the armed populace would destroy any idea of domestic terrorism against America's soft underbelly.

[AJ Dual]

I'm not necessarily advocating this. I understand there would be legal issues surrounding this solution. But look: Israel is part of the same civilization. It suffers from the same social ills and handicaps America has. And it's far, far more anti-gun than most European countries. In America it would be legal for a security company to just buy a dozen rifles and put them in a locker somewhere on-premises.

Insurance policy and tort law varies greatly amongst the wide array of nations that loosely define "Western Civ." and there's not always a complete correlation between their socialist and free-market tendencies either.

Honestly, I'd be flabbergasted if anywhere but an existing paramilitary/security group, or gun-store could ever have such an arrangment. And even then, it's obviously somewhat redundant due to the nature of the business and their work already.

And I'm not sure that even the most pro-gun among us would entrust such an arrangement amongst the low-end service-sector employees of malls and stadium ticket-takers/consessioniers who'd really be the prime target areas.

Your geographic realities, and the nature of your history within the LIVING MEMORY of your people makes for a certain sense of pragmatism on the matter I think. A reality of which the U.S. has not dealt since 1812*.

*Or at least in 100 years if you count Pancho Villa.

[MicroBalrog]

That won't fly here.  Random public access to M4/M16 rifles won't fly.

I don't think the idea would be much degraded if they had pistols, or any other weapon. The point is, in my mind, to select a subgroup of trusted individuals who are trained together to react during an emergency. THe individuals are not just anybody, but a subgroup of employees selected for the purpose.  Also, these groups also maintain a special group at their plant or facility with aerial photographs, plans, and other equipment that they provide to law enforcement personnel once they arrive on the location, to help deal with an active shooter scenario or any other emergency.

The training and preparedness would be worth more in this scenario than the value of having an M.

[Tallpine]

Micro, you are missing the point 

How would something like you describe allow the gunverment to have more control over the peasants?   

[stevelyn]

I want the government to start openly advocating (in a gentle and subtle way), concealed carry in public places.  Start encouraging businesses to remove their "no guns allowed" signs.

If the FBI/DHS or local PD showed up at the next IPSC/3gun/USPSA shoot and made it a point to target the PROFICIENT shooter community and engage them in teamwork oriented preparedness... that would go a long way.  The local DHS field office asking for increased concealed carry in workplaces and shopping centers would remove a lot of apprehension from HR departments over CCW in the workplace.

By "teamwork oriented preparedness" I don't mean impromptu fire teams to advance on terrorist mall rampagers.   However, CCW-type people tend to be sober in public, excellent witnesses, reactive to danger (rather than stumps) and they shoot better than most of  the public.  Competitors who also CCW tend to eclipse police accuracy when it comes to hits on target.  It would be nice to see our government acknowledge the purpose of the 2A and the potential efficacy (both in real efficacy in a shoot as well as efficacy as a deterrent) of the modern populace/militia.

I mean "the ideal way we (Government/police) want YOU as a CCW permitee to respond to a multiple active shooter event like Mumbai."  Perhaps even incorporating such ideas into shoot scenarios for IPSC/USPSA/3gun/whatever competitions.

A modern-day revival of the DCM.

What you're advocating there is a libertarian society as the founders envisioned it. But you're forgetting that Homoland inSecurity thinks that we're the enemy.

[Jamisjockey]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northwest_Airlines_Flight_253#Pre-boarding_event

 

So you think he was put on the airplane by the CIA or some other nonsense?

Because there are no American and Euorpean born and educated members of terrorist groups? 

Remember, Osama comes from a wealth family and is college educated.  It wouldn't be a stretch for a terrorist handler or handler from a foriegn government that doesn't like us very much to bribe and con to get the underwear bomber onto an airplane.

[MechAg94]

I like AZRedHawk's idea, but I don't think the current Govt Buearocracy would allow it.  They are too mired in the idea that the govt has to do everything and any citizen that actually takes action is a vigilante. 

IMO, if the govt just offered free training or subsidized training directly or through tax breaks it would go a long way.  Official support for concealed carry and ordinary citizens taking action would be great. 

[Jamisjockey]

I like AZRedHawk's idea, but I don't think the current Govt Buearocracy would allow it.  They are too mired in the idea that the govt has to do everything and any citizen that actually takes action is a vigilante. 

IMO, if the govt just offered free training or subsidized training directly or through tax breaks it would go a long way.  Official support for concealed carry and ordinary citizens taking action would be great. 

There are enough people that would even take a paid course. 

[AJ Dual]

Honestly, if every mall in America had to put in a Cabela's or Sportsman's Warehouse, a Harbor Freight, and provide adequate couches/lounge space in the common areas with TV's tuned to ESPN and Fox News, that might solve it right there.

[AZRedhawk44]

Honestly, if every mall in America had to put in a Cabela's or Sportsman's Warehouse, a Harbor Freight, and provide adequate couches/lounge space in the common areas with TV's tuned to ESPN and Fox News, that might solve it right there.

lol.

My local mall has a Dick's Sporting Goods and a Best Buy as anchor stores.  And, Sears is at the other end.  It ain't quite Home Depot or Harbor Freight, but it has tools.

On a more serious thread-drift-tangent... how would you go about pitching the idea of Fed LEO field offices partnering with local shooting clubs, to the feds or to the clubs?

[Tallpine]

how would you go about pitching the idea of Fed LEO field offices partnering with local shooting clubs, to the feds or to the clubs?

Same way that I would get Santa Claus a date with the Tooth Fairy 

So you think he was put on the airplane by the CIA or some other nonsense?

Well, it sure was a damn convenient excuse to roll out the porno-scanners 

No question though that there are plenty of furriners that want to kill Americans, which is really handy sometimes.

[seeker_two]

So you think he was put on the airplane by the CIA or some other nonsense?

I'd think it more like the FedGov had knowledge of the attack but let it happen either out of incompetence or darker plans....kinda like what happened with the ATF and Oklahoma City....ATF wanted to catch McVeigh in the act of planting the bomb but messed up terribly....then ATF covered up the mistake...

[Jamisjockey]

out of incompetence

Well considering the Panty bomber was on the no fly list.....

[Tallpine]

Well considering the Panty bomber was on the no fly list.....

That worked out well, didn't it?

[Lee]

Mumbai-like shootings in the US = 0 so far.  Mass shootings by American high school and college kids, postal workers, etc.  = ? a bunch.  I'm thinking we should just take care of our own butts.

[Tallpine]

Mumbai-like shootings in the US = 0 so far.  Mass shootings by American high school and college kids, postal workers, etc.  = ? a bunch.  I'm thinking we should just take care of our own butts.

There was the DC PotShooter

[Jamisjockey]

There was the DC PotShooter

And Major Hassan.  And the Little rock recruiting center.

And then there is the New York attempted bombing.  Lets not forget the first WTC attack, either.

For some reason they want us to be scared to death of flying, but any connection between terrorisim and these other attacks is blown off as crazy talk.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Hood_shooting#Reports_on_Terrorism

On Sept 10, 2010, the Bipartisan Policy Center released the report "Assessing the Terrorist Threat" which concluded that "in 2009 at least 43 American citizens or residents aligned with Sunni militant groups or their ideology were charged or convicted of terrorism crimes in the U.S. or elsewhere, the highest number in any year since 9/11". They included Fort Hood and the 2009 Little Rock recruiting office shooting as the two successful terrorist attacks, even though neither case has been prosecuted as such

[Tallpine]

For some reason they want us to be scared to death of flying, but any connection between terrorisim and these other attacks is blown off as crazy talk.

Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain. 

[Perd Hapley]

For some reason they want us to be scared to death of flying, but any connection between terrorisim and these other attacks is blown off as crazy talk.

I was just wondering today, why is the TSA so much crazier with the scans and pat-downs than federal buildings or sporting events?

[MicroBalrog]

I was just wondering today, why is the TSA so much crazier with the scans and pat-downs than federal buildings or sporting events?

BECAUSE NINE-ELEVEN! NINE-ELEVEN!

[Monkeyleg]

I was just wondering today, why is the TSA so much crazier with the scans and pat-downs than federal buildings or sporting events?

Because police officers and sheriffs' deputies know better than to grab an innocent person's crotch.

[French G.]

Very true.

Other than some institutional policy that when there's tons of shooting in a public space, GTF-over there ASAP, and start shooting back, so the officers feel confident and feel no need to dither about backup or orders from on-high, I don't see much of what else can be done either.

And AFAIK, post-Columbine, we've gotten that policy in place in most LEA's.

You mean like how everyone hung out outside the buildings at VT and had the time to get their pretty little tac vests and helmets out of the closet and put them on? One twerp with a Glock and no one student, faculty, or LE actively engaged him. That idiot could have been solved with a J-Frame, or if you were feeling blessed, a good knife. Heck, he could have been bum-rushed. Dying trying is better than standing there and bleeding.