Author Topic: I am firmly in the Gingrich camp now.  (Read 26506 times)

MicroBalrog

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Re: I am firmly in the Gingrich camp now.
« Reply #50 on: November 26, 2011, 10:09:30 PM »
Now, longeyes asked me to describe what he calls a Paulestinian America.

I will do this because I think this is a golden opportunity for me to clearly explain my position.

Imagine here a completely fictional universe, in which Ron Paul Or Someone Quite Like him has won the Republican Primaries. Again, this is unlikely.

Imagine that Ron Paul* is revealed the winner of the Republican primaries.

Swiftly, the liberal media commence their assault on Ron Paul*. Because Ron Paul* is known to be a generally non-corrupt politician, most of these attacks will not be on his character, but on his view. Most of the right-wing media (commentators, pundits, etc.) will probably defend Ron Paul* from these attacks, if only out of party loyalty. This will begin a national debate on what is really the main issue of our time - whether we want a welfare state or whether we want constitutionally limited government that respects individual right - a 'conservative' or 'broadly libertarian' system, if you like.

Ron Paul*, of course, will not shy away from his debate - this is why he is here, after all. To fill these shoes, a man must really believe in the notion of limited government, and be able to defend it unashamedly, in front of the cameras, come what may. The liberal media are not prepared, intellectually or culturally, to struggle with this form of flat-out attack on their values. They are prepared - indeed their entire civilization depends on - the notion that they will only contend with people who are obsessed with looking reasonable. They can fight Gingrich, they are better at fighting John McCain. With Ron Paul*, their best survival mechanism is avoidance -trying to smother the revolutionary from media access. That won't work if the revolutionary is a Presidential candidate.

In the same way, Ron Paul* would debate the Democratic Candidate. No longer would this be a fight between "raise taxes 1%" and "raise taxes 50% and eat the rich". This would be a debated between Barack Obama and someone who looks into the camera, unashamed, and says: "Abolish the graduated income tax and replace it with nothing."

This is going to be a fight. Polls suggest that about 12% of Americans are libertarians in a broad sense, but more people can be persuaded to vote for Ron Paul* with the correct marketing - party loyalty ("will you let Obama appoint judges? Ron Paul might be bad on terorrism but we can't let Obama win!"), or niche-based benefits ("Ron Paul will protect complementary medicine users from FDA intervention!" will bring many hippies over, and so will "Ron Paul will legalize marijuana").

If the campaign loses, will still shift what the political mainstream is in this country, in ways Ron Paul, the Congressman from Texas, already did.

If it wins... oh, then we are entering the interesting territory:

Paulestinian America.

Envision now President Ron Paul*. Of course, he would order American troops out of Iraq and Afghanistan (forget that they are already leaving),  and out of the many military bases around the world.  Perhaps it would be possible for the Pentagon to persuade him to keep some of them, but generally this will probably be the case. America's international standing will be, of course damaged in a variety of ways. There is not a doubt about  that. This is a downside, and we are all aware of it.

Here's where the real fun starts.

1. Executive orders. The actual Congressman Ron Paul promised - and indeed President Ron Paul* no doubt would - repeal dozens of Executive orders and Federal regulatons. The import bans on 'assault weapons'? Gone. The impositions on kitchen-table dealers? Gone.  In fact it is even possible to do even more  - under the Gun Control Act - to recclassify models of firearms away from the NFA and into Title I, to order the BATFE to enact a registration amnesty for NFA firearms, and so forth. This is entirely legal (to the extent BATFE is legal) and within the executive office's purview.

2. The pardon power. Thousands of innocent people are in prison for victimless crimes. From - at least - a libertarian perspective, a person in prison for a victimless crime is an innocent man in prison. If there are innocent men in prison it is a moral prime directive to set them free - and, from a Constitutional point of view it is not outside the President's authority to free all of these people at once.

3. The veto power. No, the President cannot veto everthing. But if President Ron Paul* vetoes everything he can, that would at least stop a large part of the evil acts of modern government, force Congress to compromise, and stop things like the Patriot Act, that require reauthorization.

4. The bully pulpit. A victory by President Ron Paul* would no doubt be a strong message to Congress, and a President Ron Paul* would be able to appeal to the American people (using State of the Union addresses and other opportunities) on behalf of freedom. He would not accomplish all of his goals, but he would accomplish far more, and his victory would no doubt also propel more freedom-friendly candidates into office.

In short, a President Ron Paul* can do far more than is commonly estimated, merely because he is willing to do far more than a President Cain* (much less President McCain)* would.

*Or Someone Quite Like Him
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roo_ster

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Re: I am firmly in the Gingrich camp now.
« Reply #51 on: November 27, 2011, 12:08:34 AM »
There is not - repeat  not - an Overriding Civilizational Threat to America posed by the semi-literate camel-herders. Even if many Muslims were not on the side of the West - as many Muslims are - even if the entire Islamic world rose united against us, it would take very little effort to stomp it flat.

This assumes the will to do some stomping and the presence of a large enough contingent of stompers relative to the stompees.

With North Africa living in Paris's suburbs, these assumptions are not given and must be proved.

Now, longeyes asked me to describe what he calls a Paulestinian America...

Quite fetching.  If he would mature like T Jefferson did in office, I could buy into it.
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roo_ster

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longeyes

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Re: I am firmly in the Gingrich camp now.
« Reply #52 on: November 27, 2011, 02:47:44 PM »
Paul will, if he were to grab a bigger share, be attacked for being a "Nazi" and an anti-Semite. 

It would certainly be interesting to watch a Ron Paul administration in action, but I suspect (as is my wont) that it is most plausible in a "break-away Republic" down the pike.
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Blakenzy

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Re: I am firmly in the Gingrich camp now.
« Reply #53 on: November 29, 2011, 11:20:56 PM »
"Knowledge will forever govern ignorance, and a people who mean to be their own governors, must arm themselves with the power knowledge gives. A popular government without popular information or the means of acquiring it, is but a prologue to a farce or a tragedy or perhaps both"

TommyGunn

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Re: I am firmly in the Gingrich camp now.
« Reply #54 on: November 29, 2011, 11:33:07 PM »
Newt has already called that a big mistake.   
I don't think there's any "perfect" candidate.  Twenty three years after Ronaldus Magnus left office I still find myself believing he was the best president in my memory ... but I have to admit, he made mistakes too.


Are we so endeared of making the perfect the enemy of the good that we are willing to give Obama another four years? [barf]
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longeyes

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Re: I am firmly in the Gingrich camp now.
« Reply #55 on: November 30, 2011, 12:58:08 AM »
Someone needs to breach the shield of false politeness.  Someone needs to rip away the halo and the teflon.  Chris Christie and Donald Trump are showing the way. 
"Domari nolo."

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Perd Hapley

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Re: I am firmly in the Gingrich camp now.
« Reply #56 on: November 30, 2011, 01:28:23 AM »
Someone needs to breach the shield of false politeness.  Someone needs to rip away the halo and the teflon.  Chris Christie and Donald Trump are showing the way. 

I like the way Christie comes out and says what needs saying sometimes. Kinda funny how he characterized the Tea Party in that recent comment, though. Said we were upset that government doesn't get things done, which is almost the exact opposite of what we are really saying.
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Jamie B

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Re: I am firmly in the Gingrich camp now.
« Reply #57 on: November 30, 2011, 07:46:53 AM »
Someone needs to breach the shield of false politeness.  Someone needs to rip away the halo and the teflon.  Chris Christie and Donald Trump are showing the way. 
Christie, yes. Trump is just self promotion.
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KD5NRH

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Re: I am firmly in the Gingrich camp now.
« Reply #58 on: November 30, 2011, 10:56:28 AM »
Now, longeyes asked me to describe what he calls a Paulestinian America.

I'd have to admit that a gynecologist is just what we need to deal with most welfare dependents.

longeyes

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Re: I am firmly in the Gingrich camp now.
« Reply #59 on: November 30, 2011, 12:37:42 PM »
Christie, yes. Trump is just self promotion.

Sometimes self-promotion involves truth-saying.  Trump is unafraid to call Obama out, bluntly; that is what I meant.  He did this, without mercy, in his YouTube message.  That was about as contusive as anything I've seen in open air.  As for self-promotion Trump is a piker compared with Obama; at least Trump has made some things along the way.
"Domari nolo."

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MicroBalrog

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seeker_two

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Re: I am firmly in the Gingrich camp now.
« Reply #61 on: December 01, 2011, 10:03:11 AM »
Impressed yet befogged, they grasped at his vivid leading phrases, seeing only their surface meaning, and missing the deeper current of his thought.

Jamisjockey

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Re: I am firmly in the Gingrich camp now.
« Reply #62 on: December 01, 2011, 11:50:27 AM »
This is the Gingrich that I'm afraid of getting elected.....

Exactly.  Its frustrating as all hell.  He is just another entrenched RINO, flying the conservative banner. 
If Newt is the definition of conservatisim in America, well then, no wonder we're *expletive deleted*ed as a nation.
JD

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makattak

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Re: I am firmly in the Gingrich camp now.
« Reply #63 on: December 01, 2011, 11:53:52 AM »
Exactly.  Its frustrating as all hell.  He is just another entrenched RINO, flying the conservative banner. 
If Newt is the definition of conservatisim in America, well then, no wonder we're *expletive deleted*ed as a nation.

He's not. But we're apparently not going to get a conservative in this race, and he's better than the alternatives.

I'm not supporting him because he's my dream candidate. I'm supporting him because compared to the other options, he's the best.

(And now cue the replies with how Mr. Paul is ACTUALLY the dream candidate...)
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Jamisjockey

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Re: I am firmly in the Gingrich camp now.
« Reply #64 on: December 01, 2011, 12:05:06 PM »
He's not. But we're apparently not going to get a conservative in this race, and he's better than the alternatives.

I'm not supporting him because he's my dream candidate. I'm supporting him because compared to the other options, he's the best.

(And now cue the replies with how Mr. Paul is ACTUALLY the dream candidate...)

I support RP as my candidate.  I will vote for him in the primary.
If Newt gets the nod, I can probably hold my nose and hope for some actaul conservative leadership in the senate.  The house has been co-opted fully by the GOP, unless we toss out a few more RINOs and the leadership gets kicked in the ass.
I'm not sure I can hold my nose hard enough to pull a lever for Romney, though. 
JD

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seeker_two

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Re: I am firmly in the Gingrich camp now.
« Reply #65 on: December 01, 2011, 12:09:21 PM »
My vote (in descending likability order).....

1. Cain
2. Paul
3. Bachmann

....after that, I start looking at third parties.....
Impressed yet befogged, they grasped at his vivid leading phrases, seeing only their surface meaning, and missing the deeper current of his thought.

Boomhauer

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Re: I am firmly in the Gingrich camp now.
« Reply #66 on: December 01, 2011, 12:32:24 PM »
We ALL know, deep down, that Romney is who will be the Republican candidate. The Obama trainwreck will continue for four more years at a minimum regardless. And then in 2016 we will have a Democrat as the next president because of Romney's stupidity. And then in 2020 we will have another race just like 2012 come up...just a big political circle jerk.

Quote from: Ben
Holy hell. It's like giving a loaded gun to a chimpanzee...

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the last thing you need is rabies. You're already angry enough as it is.

OTOH, there wouldn't be a tweeker left in Georgia...

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Jamisjockey

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Re: I am firmly in the Gingrich camp now.
« Reply #67 on: December 01, 2011, 12:38:06 PM »
We ALL know, deep down, that Romney is who will be the Republican candidate. The Obama trainwreck will continue for four more years at a minimum regardless. And then in 2016 we will have a Democrat as the next president because of Romney's stupidity. And then in 2020 we will have another race just like 2012 come up...just a big political circle jerk.



I'm not convinced we'll make it to 2020 as a constitutional republic.
Not without being yanked back from the precipice.

JD

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Boomhauer

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Re: I am firmly in the Gingrich camp now.
« Reply #68 on: December 01, 2011, 12:42:14 PM »
Oh I don't think so either. I'm just discussing the election cycle provided we keep the same er...quality of candidates.

Quote from: Ben
Holy hell. It's like giving a loaded gun to a chimpanzee...

Quote from: bluestarlizzard
the last thing you need is rabies. You're already angry enough as it is.

OTOH, there wouldn't be a tweeker left in Georgia...

Quote from: Balog
BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD! SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE! AND THROW SOME STEAK ON THE GRILL!

roo_ster

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Re: I am firmly in the Gingrich camp now.
« Reply #69 on: December 01, 2011, 12:43:41 PM »
I support RP as my candidate.  I will vote for him in the primary.
If Newt gets the nod, I can probably hold my nose and hope for some actaul conservative leadership in the senate.  The house has been co-opted fully by the GOP, unless we toss out a few more RINOs and the leadership gets kicked in the ass.
I'm not sure I can hold my nose hard enough to pull a lever for Romney, though.  

Had to take a shower after voting for McCain in the general(1) in 2008.  I only got that far by chanting The Litany Against RINOs over & over:
I voted for Paul in the primary...I voted for Paul in the primary...I voted for Paul in the primary...

Not sure if the Litany will suffice for Mitt Gingrich.  We'll see.  Newt hammering at Obama and continually reminding me of Obama's marxist past & pals will help.


My vote (in descending likability order).....

1. Cain
2. Paul
3. Bachmann

....after that, I start looking at third parties.....

I was trying to come up with a Frankencandidate, taking at least one characteristic from each of them, but realized that either Perry(2) or Romney would remain intact, as I only needed one rockin' head of hair.




(1) I had the day off: got up, walked across the street, voted, came home & took a shower.

(2) Has not covered himself in glory on the national stage.
Regards,

roo_ster

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wmenorr67

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Re: I am firmly in the Gingrich camp now.
« Reply #70 on: December 01, 2011, 12:44:09 PM »
Just now read the first couple of posts in this thread and skimmed a couple more.

But the jest of what Newt is talking about from MPOV is similar to what Bush proposed himself.
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MechAg94

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Re: I am firmly in the Gingrich camp now.
« Reply #71 on: December 01, 2011, 01:03:24 PM »
We ALL know, deep down, that Romney is who will be the Republican candidate. The Obama trainwreck will continue for four more years at a minimum regardless. And then in 2016 we will have a Democrat as the next president because of Romney's stupidity. And then in 2020 we will have another race just like 2012 come up...just a big political circle jerk.


I don't think that is a given.  Despite all the other candidates who have gone up and down, he has yet to show he can get more support than 25%.  Doesn't Undecided usually outnumber his polled support?  IMO, the only way he wins is if all the other candidates split the remaining vote and I really doubt that will happen. 
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AZRedhawk44

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Re: I am firmly in the Gingrich camp now.
« Reply #72 on: December 01, 2011, 01:10:27 PM »
I'm not convinced we'll make it to 2020 as a constitutional republic.
Not without being yanked back from the precipice.



We'll "make it" to 2040 or even later.  Don't get so melodramatic.

Bread will cost $40 a loaf by then and the average blue collar guy will be making $300k due to inflation, but we'll make it to then.

It just won't be the same America, that any of us would actually WANT to live in.  We'll have our guns.  We'll be able to vote.  We'll have the 1A.

-But the vote won't matter (Giant *expletive deleted*che / Turd Sandwich)
-The guns won't matter (no one will use 'em for their purpose)
-Speech and Assembly won't matter ("Free Speech Zones")
-Patriot Act(s) will make any groundswell movement to replace the Police State, impossible.
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longeyes

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Re: I am firmly in the Gingrich camp now.
« Reply #73 on: December 01, 2011, 01:22:14 PM »
We ALL know, deep down, that Romney is who will be the Republican candidate. The Obama trainwreck will continue for four more years at a minimum regardless. And then in 2016 we will have a Democrat as the next president because of Romney's stupidity. And then in 2020 we will have another race just like 2012 come up...just a big political circle jerk.

Yes, this is a very optimistic scenario.  We will be fortunate to even reach an orderly 2012 Election at the rate the rain is falling.  The ground is waterlogged and the foundations of the Republic are unsteady in a way they haven't been in a century and a half.  Governability will be the issue come 2013, and if I had to bet now I would wager that whoever wins will find a very unruly people.
"Domari nolo."

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longeyes

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Re: I am firmly in the Gingrich camp now.
« Reply #74 on: December 01, 2011, 01:25:21 PM »
We'll "make it" to 2040 or even later.  Don't get so melodramatic.

Bread will cost $40 a loaf by then and the average blue collar guy will be making $300k due to inflation, but we'll make it to then.

It just won't be the same America, that any of us would actually WANT to live in.  We'll have our guns.  We'll be able to vote.  We'll have the 1A.

-But the vote won't matter (Giant *expletive deleted*che / Turd Sandwich)
-The guns won't matter (no one will use 'em for their purpose)
-Speech and Assembly won't matter ("Free Speech Zones")
-Patriot Act(s) will make any groundswell movement to replace the Police State, impossible.

There will be more than one America by 2040, and that's the good news.
"Domari nolo."

Thug: What you lookin' at old man?
Walt Kowalski: Ever notice how you come across somebody once in a while you shouldn't have messed with? That's me.

Molon Labe.