Author Topic: This "damn Saxon" is pretty disheartened  (Read 4093 times)

Iain

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This "damn Saxon" is pretty disheartened
« on: June 02, 2006, 11:10:09 PM »
I've been hanging around THR since July 2003, and in that time I've read a good number of threads about the UK. I've participated in a good number too, but now I'm burned out.

Never have I sought to defend the indefensible, but I have sought to clarify and disillusion and engage in meaningful dialogue, but always at the back of my mind I've wondered about a few, and eventually I've decided to say it...

Some people are just downright anti-English. Generally not pro-British, but specifically downright anti-English.

So my answer to my fellow countrymen is that they hate us for our macaroons and our clotted cream, but most of all they hate us for having accents that American girls just love.

It's a glorious morning here in Worcestershire, less internet for me.
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Stand_watie

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This "damn Saxon" is pretty disheartened
« Reply #1 on: June 02, 2006, 11:40:06 PM »
Don't let it get you down. I know exactly how you feel, and gave up British message boards for pretty much the same reason (anti-Americanism). In both cases I think it's a natural (if wrong) reaction of people to bash the citizenry of a country that they strongly disagree with on legal issues. Regarding anti-Americanism, I think it's more anti-conservative-western-christian-capitalism, but bashing America puts a name to what they feel. You can see the same thing from Americans on a lot of left-wing American sites.

I think it's especially pronounced on THR simply because it's a firearm/self defense website, and the British government has been especially bad on that lately. I hadn't noticed a particular distinction between English and British on the forum though, any particular examples? I doubt any but a miniscule amount of Americans know the difference between English, Irish, Scot, Welsh, Cornish or N. Irish. Heck, most American-Irish are Ulster and don't even know that they're supposed to side with the English! They just see the "Irish" listed in their geneology and assume they're supposed to wear green on St. Paddy's day.

In all fairness, let's put the shoe on another foot - suppose for a minute that Canada was the single largest nation that we shared a language, tradition and legal system with, and was at the same time the forerunner of gun control in the western world - I think you'd see the same visceral anger at Canada and towards Canucks as you do now on THR toward Britain.
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roo_ster

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This "damn Saxon" is pretty disheartened
« Reply #2 on: June 03, 2006, 03:35:21 AM »
I, for one, love the Great Britain that was:  Self-confident, self-reliant, well-armed, moderately well-churched, and a force for civilization in this mostly benighted world.

Seeing what it has come to is painful for those of us who have a passing familiarity with history and the Brit contribution.  Theodore Dalrymple (pseudonym) has documented the decline from his perspective over the years.  America is a ways "behind" Britain in those matters and many of us have no desire to follow any further down that road.

I don't think I have written about the UK with an anti-brit or anti-english bias.  If I vent spleen on a UK topic, it is more likely to contain a great deal of sorrow as it wallows in its lowered circumstances, a casualty not of some external enemy, but of civilizational suicide.
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Leatherneck

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This "damn Saxon" is pretty disheartened
« Reply #3 on: June 03, 2006, 03:41:00 AM »
I've always loved, and mostly respected, Brits. Without exception the ones I've worked with and for--both military and civilian--have been dedicated, educated and thoughful. What I find truly puzzling is the speed with which British society has been embracing socialism of late. Giving up rights without much of a whimper just doesn't fit the image I have of Limeys. But the libertarian in me dictates that I not be too critical of others acting freely and in accord with their consciences.

So: anti-Brit? Hardly. Puzzled about the deterioration of friends' society? Certainly.

TC
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mtnbkr

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This "damn Saxon" is pretty disheartened
« Reply #4 on: June 03, 2006, 03:48:20 AM »
My experience mirrors Leatherneck's.  I've seen more simpering wimps come out of Canada than Great Britain (based on my experience living in Toronto for a month and working with Canucks and Brits on a project in Virginia several years ago...).

Chris

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This "damn Saxon" is pretty disheartened
« Reply #5 on: June 03, 2006, 03:48:39 AM »
Leatherneck hit it.  

damned shame to watch our Bulldog friends across the pond get taken to the vet to be neutered.

280plus

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This "damn Saxon" is pretty disheartened
« Reply #6 on: June 03, 2006, 03:48:46 AM »
I went on a wild drinking binge with some British sailors in Hong Kong many years ago. One of the best times I've ever had. Them guys could DRINK! The only complaints I might have are anything made with "blood" and WARM BEER!! Other than that I don't mind the Brits at all.

OK, I guess I could do without the girl stealing accent too... Tongue

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Stand_watie

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This "damn Saxon" is pretty disheartened
« Reply #7 on: June 03, 2006, 04:40:25 AM »
Here's a rhyme, Ian

 
The English

The rottenest bits of these islands of ours
We've left in the hands of three unfriendly powers
Examine the Irishman, Welshman or Scot
You'll find he's a stinker as likely as not

     The English the English the English are best
     I wouldn't give tuppence for all of the rest

The Scotsman is mean as we're all well aware
He's boney and blotchy and covered with hair
He eats salty porridge, he works all the day
And hasn't got bishops to show him the way

     The English the English the English are best
     I wouldn't give tuppence for all of the rest

The Irishman now our contempt is beneath
He sleeps in his boots and he lies through his teeth
He blows up policemen or so I have heard
And blames it on Cromwell and William the Third

     The English are moral the English are good
     And clever and modest and misunderstood

The Welshman's dishonest, he cheats when he can
He's little and dark more like monkey than man
He works underground with a lamp on his hat
And sings far too loud, far too often and flat

     The English the English the English are best
     I wouldn't give tuppence for all of the rest

And crossing the channel one cannot say much
For the French or the Spanish, the Danish or Dutch
The Germans are German, the Russians are red
And the Greeks and Italians eat garlic in bed

     The English are noble, the English are nice
     And worth any other at double the price

(Here's the verse I made up myself)

The Yanks are a triggerhappy, bloodthirsty lot
insular and ignorant more often than not
loudmouth polluters, far worse than  the rest
The English, the English, the English are best Smiley
Yizkor. Lo Od Pa'am

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"Never again"

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K Frame

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This "damn Saxon" is pretty disheartened
« Reply #8 on: June 03, 2006, 05:11:11 AM »
That's what I hate about the English...

So damned sensitive. Cheesy
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Iain

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« Reply #9 on: June 03, 2006, 05:19:21 AM »
There was a lot of self-parody in my post. I originally wrote something a little angrier, and more serious, but decided that it was a bit of a whine.

Stand_Watie's post was essentially what I was aiming at - any American on a British board is in a minority, and often knows it, and perhaps there is a too easy tendency when in that situation to dismiss criticism as 'anti'. I've stuck around on THR and here for a long time, and I know exactly the concerns expressed above (although I'm not sure all of them are 100% valid) and just every now and again I read something that decides me that for some the concern doesn't come from a place of love.

But I like this place and I needed to vent a little about the tendency of human beings everywhere to generalise too much and anyway it's the goddamn Scots that run this place into the ground. Wink

Still a glorious day, and England are thrashing Jamaica in a pre World Cup friendly. Afternoon all.
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Tallpine

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This "damn Saxon" is pretty disheartened
« Reply #10 on: June 03, 2006, 05:23:15 AM »
"Some people are just downright anti-English."

Might have something to do with 800 or so years of Ango-Saxon conquering, oppression, and empire building.  Though I tend not to apply that to individual members of a people who had no culpability in their history. Wink

Unfortunately, I think some of the worst of the A/S traits have been exported to the USA and have taken firm root here.  Sad

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Stand_watie

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« Reply #11 on: June 03, 2006, 05:52:57 AM »
Quote from: Tallpine
"Some people are just downright anti-English."

Might have something to do with 800 or so years of Ango-Saxon conquering, oppression, and empire building.  Though I tend not to apply that to individual members of a people who had no culpability in their history. Wink

Unfortunately, I think some of the worst of the A/S traits have been exported to the USA and have taken firm root here.  Sad

Na coisich orm! Smiley
Oi man! You know who you just sounded like there? The stereotyped self-hating, uber-liberal, college aged child of an English toff Cheesy

The British empire was the kindest of all the major empires to it's subject people's, second only to the Judean empire (if you call it such), and the Roman empire in our western societies extension of universal human rights as law (America hasn't been an empire long enough yet to qualify, but I'd like to hope that we'll beat them both by historical standards). The Greeks and the French may have had them both beat in total philosophers on the issue, but not in actual legal practice.
Yizkor. Lo Od Pa'am

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"Never again"

"Malone Labe"

280plus

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This "damn Saxon" is pretty disheartened
« Reply #12 on: June 03, 2006, 06:09:02 AM »
I do NOT eat garlic in bed, but I DO eat it on BREAD (But not with butter anymore Sad ) Musta been a typo back there in the poem...

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MillCreek

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This "damn Saxon" is pretty disheartened
« Reply #13 on: June 03, 2006, 01:00:37 PM »
I liked the poem, especially since my ancestors came over on the boat back in the 1700's, from Wales, Scotland and Ireland, in that order.  I guess that makes me a hairy, lying monkey miner.  Spot on, I must say.
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grampster

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This "damn Saxon" is pretty disheartened
« Reply #14 on: June 03, 2006, 02:10:19 PM »
Cor blimey mate.  It's yer bloody warm beer.  How DO you do that?  Personally I've enjoyed you over the last few years and I have warm feeling for you Brits in general.  You've been fer us, but never really agin us, except a couple times a long time ago.  We Yanks have much to thank you for, actually. (or ecktually)

I do agree about women and the way you talk.

Don't forget to turn in your knoif before amnesty ends.  Tongue
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Lo.Com.Denom

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This "damn Saxon" is pretty disheartened
« Reply #15 on: June 03, 2006, 02:17:51 PM »
I've been away from THR and APS for a few days, I take it that there's a thread I should avoid?

For what it's worth, I agree with Stand_watie's first post, but I do recall a truely vile anti-English thread on THR which was erased because it got so bad. I would have quit the site if it had stayed up, in all honesty. Only some of the more "enlightened" posts towards the end convinced me to stick it out. I'm afraid I just don't have a sense of humour when it comes to terrorism...

OTOH, Many Brits, unfortunately, seem to base their views on America from left-wing comedians on TV. Even my Brother-in-law -- an easy-going, intelligent kind of guy -- has some ill-informed, sweeping ideas about all Americans. Strange and sad. Xenophobia, if that's the right word, is rampant everywhere, to a greater or lesser degree. Saves people from having to think too hard, I reckon. Wink

I can't defend my home country on many issues either. Especially not exporting afternoon tea and cricket to 1/4 of the globe at gunpoint...

280plus

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This "damn Saxon" is pretty disheartened
« Reply #16 on: June 03, 2006, 02:35:26 PM »
Yea, unfortunately TV and it's distorted reality IS a big contributor to global misunderstanding. The internet has helped enlighten a few but I also find it to be an astonishing revelation on how close minded people can be, and a LOT of it over the same old *expletive deleted*it that's been going on for hundreds or even thousands of years. I have found that to be disheartening as well as time goes on.

My problem is I grew up in the "It's a small world / I'd like to buy the world a Coke" generation.
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Preacherman

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This "damn Saxon" is pretty disheartened
« Reply #17 on: June 03, 2006, 04:50:17 PM »
Stand, nice to see someone else appreciates Flanders & Swann! Cheesy

As for the definition of the Brits (and I hasten to add that I speak as a British citizen myself):

Quote
There are four races inhabiting the British Isles:

-  The Welsh, who pray on their knees - and their neighbors;

-  The Scots, who keep the Sabbath - and everything else they lay their eyes on;

-  The Irish, who don't know what they want - but are willing to die for it;

-  And the English, who consider themselves a race of self-made men - thereby relieving the Almighty of a dreadful responsibility!
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Stand_watie

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This "damn Saxon" is pretty disheartened
« Reply #18 on: June 03, 2006, 05:21:26 PM »
Preacherman, I'm trying to remember the joke about the Englishman, the Scot and the Irishman in the pub that had flies land in their beer.

I'd no idea you were a British citizen, how'd that come about?
Yizkor. Lo Od Pa'am

"You can have my gun when you pry it from my cold dead fingers"

"Never again"

"Malone Labe"

Preacherman

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« Reply #19 on: June 03, 2006, 08:03:25 PM »
My parents were British, and I was born in South Africa, so I hold both citizenships.  However, now that I've been in the USA long enough, I've applied for citizenship here, which will replace both of the others.  Hopefully, next year, I'll be taking the oath.  Looking forward to it!
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Tallpine

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This "damn Saxon" is pretty disheartened
« Reply #20 on: June 04, 2006, 08:22:15 AM »
Quote from: Stand_watie
Oi man! You know who you just sounded like there? The stereotyped self-hating, uber-liberal, college aged child of an English toff Cheesy
Hmmm ... that's pretty good for a old redneck, huh? Cheesy

But as far as the self-hating - why, I never claimed to be Anglo-Saxon Tongue

(though I might be mixed up some ... I read somewhere that even Gerry Adams is descended on at least one branch of the family tree from the Ulster Planters)

I can't figure out why the English went about conquering peoples and then complain about what a bother it is to rule them ...Huh???
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Matthew Carberry

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This "damn Saxon" is pretty disheartened
« Reply #21 on: June 04, 2006, 12:25:35 PM »
Quote from: tallpine
I can't figure out why the English went about conquering peoples and then complain about what a bother it is to rule them ...Huh???
Because they all turned out so damned ungrateful for the conquering. Wink

Preacher,

I saw that little couplet on a wall hanging in an Irish shop here in town and have been looking for it ever since.  I have to say every Suid Afrikaan and Rhodesian expat I've come in contact with (3 or 4) have been uniformly hale fellows well-met.
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Iain

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This "damn Saxon" is pretty disheartened
« Reply #22 on: June 04, 2006, 01:12:11 PM »
Ah Flanders and Swann. I knew a guy at university who had one of them (can't remember which) for a godfather.

Lo Co - the only crime in exporting cricket was that we should have kept some of the rules secret. On the fifth day of any test match we are losing we should definitely be allowed to produce rules like 'No more than one player on a team should have a surname beginning with J' or 'A dangerous wrist spinner must perform a lap of the playing area before each over.'
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P95Carry

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This "damn Saxon" is pretty disheartened
« Reply #23 on: June 05, 2006, 08:15:18 PM »
Iain,

I have read many of your posts (back in St Johns days Smiley ) - and you have done a great job of clarification and defence too.  I respect your views and integrity.

Let me say tho - as I might add, now a proud American - I am in some ways almost ashamed to be of English origin!  I saw much coming thru the 90's in particular and when my guns went in '97 felt things were really bad.  Since then and my move here in 2, all I seem to see is retrograde moves, all the more depriving the English folk of liberty and freedoms.

I am therefore - a bit embarrassed to admit - somewhat anti Brit in a sense.  I still could love some areas - plenty of beauty - I still have a daughter domiciled there and a few friends left - but that aside my family is all dead and gone.  I am sad to say I have no allegiance left - it is all here and for the stars and stripes.

I couold easily pine for the 60's - when I was fortunate enough in my 20's to enjoy a very free and easy life - but oh things have changed, so much.  It is sad for me, very sad but hey - gotta move on.

I do tho thank you for your steadfast patience on the boards - you are young I know but you have one heck of a mature head on those shoulders.
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Perd Hapley

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« Reply #24 on: June 05, 2006, 08:34:24 PM »
Iain,

Tis a sad pass we are come to, you well know.  I have resigned hope for us Yanks as well, but the fight must continue.  In studying our Revolution here at home, I have lately been educating myself on your truly great civilization, to better understand the cradle from which Liberty emerged.  We owe you much.  And the world owes much to one of your countrymen, I trust you will know who it was wrote these words some 230 years ago:


Quote
O ye that love mankind! Ye that dare oppose, not only the tyranny, but the tyrant, stand forth! Every spot of the old world is overrun with oppression. Freedom hath been hunted round the globe. Asia, and Africa, have long expelled her.  Europe regards her like a stranger, and England hath given her warning to depart. O! receive the fugitive, and prepare in time an asylum for mankind.
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